RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Peter Spering on Sunday 29 March 20 20:50 BST (UK)
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Hi, I've been interested in tracing back the Irish roots on my mother's side, but it's proving to be an uphill struggle so I'm going to ask for help. At the heart of this is:
James O'Neill (though his name is John on Josephine's marriage record)
- Born abt 1845 in Ireland, son of Patrick O'Neill. (Liverpool census, Liverpool Catholic Marriage record)
- Married Mary Currid (b. 1848) on 7 May 1866 at St Augustine Church, Liverpool. Being a Catholic marriage, their names are recorded as Jacobum and Mariam (Liverpool Catholic Marriage record)
I think there may be some crossed wires because his daughter has a CoE marriage but there's a Catholic burial record. I'm so confused and lost. The starting point is Ernest G Bramwell (1891 - 1948) who married Ann Fellowes. I'm trying to trace back from his mother who was some kind of Josephine (I think... the more I search, the more my head spins) and definitely an O'Neill.
Anecdotally, my mother did a DNA test and one of three big matches was an Irish one. I decided to contact him and throw in the O'Neill surname for good measure. His response is attached.
History has taught me that there are true pros on here with far better genealogical skills than me, so I'm reaching out for a little help to put me back on track. Thanks in advance.
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There are about 1058 R.C parishes in Ireland, with no location all you can do is check each one, one by one, but do you know parents names to identify which one is yours?
Map to give you an idea of parishes in a few Counties
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Do you have Josephine’s birth certificate?
I see that in 1911, she is Julia Josephine Bramwell - is that her?
There is a birth for Julia Josephine O’Neill December quarter 1870, West Derby but she has mother’s name of McNamee.
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What is John’s occupation on her marriage record?
Who are the witnesses?
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@hallmark
Presuming I'm on the right track, James' father is called Patrick.
@heywood
RE: Josephine's birth certificate.
Her DoB relied on the 1911 census and the 1871 census. Now then, I've gone back to the 1871 census and it shows this:
James O'neill Head - Male 26 1845 - Ireland
Mary O'neill Wife - Female 23 1848 - Ireland
Bridget O'neill Daughter - Female 4 1867 - Ireland
Julia O'neill Daughter - Female 0 1871 - Lancashire, England
Edward McEvoy Boarder - Male 28 1843 - Ireland
This must have been where James came in. I'm pretty sure Currid, surname for Mary, must have come from either a FindMyPast suggestion, if not their marriage records. It may be nothing, but when I searched the Catholic baptism record for Julia, Mary was listed as Mary McEvoy:
Father: Jacobi Oneill
Mother: Maria Mcevoy
RE: Occupation
On the marriage record from 1891, he's named John and a police officer. In 1871, he's James and his occupation is a seaman. I feel like I've made an error somewhere, somehow. It's frustrating because one woman or the other has the same name(s), both are the same age and both are from the same place.
The witnesses on the marriage are Henrietta Petrali (John's sister) and a Thomas Evans.
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I don’t think you can be sure with the evidence you have but I can’t see much either :-\
Just for information
Baptism
Joanna O’Neill daughter of John and Julia (McNemee) baptised September 1870
St Patrick’s Liverpool.
The record is in Latin but - Juliae for mother but not for child :-\ I spent a long time looking for my husband’s grandmother Julia and eventually found her as Joanna so it does happen.
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I don’t think you can be sure with the evidence you have but I can’t see much either :-\
Just for information
Baptism
Joanna O’Neill daughter of John and Julia (McNemee) baptised September 1870
St Patrick’s Liverpool.
The record is in Latin but - Juliae for mother but not for child :-\ I spent a long time looking for my husband’s grandmother Julia and eventually found her as Joanna so it does happen.
Thank you, I'm going to bear this in mind. I just wish frickin' Julia Josephine or whatever she called herself could stick to one name instead of acting like a nominal jack in the box.
That said, looking back at the 1901 and 1911 censuses, which I'm 100% sure about because they feature the names of all the right kids, there's a few Murphys living with them and they're listed as nephews. The Bramwells were all Welsh and we know 100% that great gran Jojo as I'll call her for now was an O'Neill, it might be that the Murphy boys are maternal nephews.
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"..The starting point is Ernest G Bramwell (1891 - 1948) who married Ann Fellowes. I'm trying to trace back from his mother who was some kind of Josephine (I think... the more I search, the more my head spins) and definitely an O'Neill."
A lot of uncertainty here. Start with the BRAMWELL - FELLOWES marriage record. Can you please list the information on the certificate.
Do you see Ernest G BRAMWELL on the 1901 and 1911 census.
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Yes, I wondered if you had checked those Murphy men.
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They seem to have mother’s name O’Neill
1891 2992/11
Shows several children with father Terence Murphy. The children show mmn O’Neill.
There is a marriage in Liverpool 1873 Terence Murphy and Mary Ann O’Neill are on the same sheet.
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FreeBDM MarQ 1891 Vol8B Page 178 Liverpool
O'NEILL Josephine marr. BRANWELL John
Can you please list all the information on this marriage certificate.
On 1911 census name is Julia Josephine BRAMWELL........and there are MURPHY nephews.
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Catholic marriage from Latin
23 February 1873
Terence Murphy 126 Upper Essex Street - Father James
Mary Anne O’ Neil 18 Sefton Square - Father John
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@wivenhoe
First name(s) ERNEST G
Last name BRAMWELL
Marriage quarter 3
Marriage year 1919
Registration month -
MarriageFinder ™
ERNEST G BRAMWELL married one of these people
Ann Fellowes
Spouse's last name Fellowes
District West Derby
District number -
County Lancashire
Country England
I know this to be correct from first-hand information.
and
Name: Josephine Onell
Gender: Female
Marriage Age: 20
Event Type: Marriage
Birth Year: abt 1871
Marriage Date: 4 Jan 1891
Marriage Place: Liverpool, St Nicholas, Lancashire, England
Parish as it Appears: Liverpool
Search Photos: Search for 'Liverpool, St Nicholas' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
Father: John O'neill (police officer)
Spouse: John Bramwell (porter)
Witnesses: Henrietta Petrali (John's married sister) and Thomas Evans
@heywood
My brain is turning to scrambled egg. I've had a look at those records and it's certainly them, a connected record shows Jacob Francis' baptism.
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James Francis' mother has the maiden name Lynch, and one of FindMyPast's marriage match options for John O'Neill is a Laurence Lynch. I'm going to investigate further.
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Edited to include marriage.....
FreeBDM MarQ 1873 W.Derby
O'NEILL Mary Ann marr. MURPHY Terence
FreeBDM MarQ 1873 W.Derby
O'NEILL Mary Ann marr. MURPHY Terence
Our Lady of Mount Carmel Church 23 Feb 1873
MURPHY Terence...126 Upper Essex St father Jacobis
O'NEIL Maria Anna....16 Sefton Sq father Joannis O'NEIL
Witnesses George MILLEN 163 Mill St Margaret HAGGARTY of Girell(?)
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FreeBDM birth DecQ 1870 W.Derby Vol 8B page 248
O'NEILL Julia Josephine
GRO birth
MarQ 1859 Vol 8B page 275
West Derby and Toxteth Park
O'NEILL Joseph mms. McNERMEE
SepQ 1863 Vol 8B page 270
West Derby and Toxteth Park
O'NEILL Joseph Patrick Mmms. McNAMEE
DecQ 1870 Vol 8B page 248
O'NEILL Julia Josephine mms. McNAMEE
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James Francis' mother has the maiden name Lynch, and one of FindMyPast's marriage match options for John O'Neill is a Laurence Lynch. I'm going to investigate further.
I am not sure who you mean here so I am posting the 1891 census for the Murphy family.
1891 2992/11
Terence Murphy 44 yrs b Co Armagh
James F Murphy 17 yrs
John Murphy 15 yrs
Joseph Murphy 14 yrs
Teresa A Murphy 13 yrs
Bernard Murphy 11 yrs
Thomas Murphy 6 yrs
This James F is likely to be James Francis with mmn O’Neill b 1873 West Derby
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Ancestry Lancashire Catholic BDM
O'NIELL Julia 53y 18 Sefton Sq Toxteth Park buried 27 Dec 1876 Ford Cemetery.
An online Ancestry tree .....Carey Campbell......has Mary Ann O'NEILL marr. Michael HALLIGAN, 1870.
Given the Sefton Sq address, I think the O'NEILL - MURPHY marriage we have found is correct.
Census 1861 at 36 Sun Street Toxteth Park
O'NEILL John 40y Police Constable b. Ireland
O'NEILL Julia 37y b. Ireland
O'NEILL James 15y clerk b. Ireland
O'NEILL Ellen 14y b. Liverpool Lancs.
O'NEILL Thomas 12y b. Liverpool Lancs
O'NEILL John 9y b. Liverpool Lancs
O'NEILL Mary A 7y b. Liverpool Lancs
LYONS Eliza 50y single lodger b. Liverpool Lancs
DERBY Edward 50y m. lodger b. Scotland
DERBY Margaret 50y m lodger b. Scotland
See CAREY/NEWTON/CAMPBELL/BARNETT tree
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That looks really good, wivenhoe :)
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Of course if the Halligan marriage is that Mary Anne O’Neill it is a spanner in the works.
17th November 1870
Michael Halligan and Mary Anne O’Neill - her address Leeds Street and father John :-\
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Sorry if I am repeating anything
Baptism St Patrick’s
Thomas O'Neil
Age: 0
Birth 1st February 1849
Baptism 11th February 1849
Father: John Oneil
Mother: Julia Mcnamee
** ancestry transcribes mother as John McNamee but it is Julia
Mary Ann baptised 1853 - same parents
Susanna baptism 1855 - same parents
Joseph 1859 - already mentioned
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Thank you everyone!
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Whilst some things seem to correlate, it still isn’t clear.
Whilst Julia, who we think might be the mother, died in 1876, the family are difficult to find in 1871 which would be a real help.
Still looking. :)
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I've found a 60 year old John O'Neill, police constable and widower, on the 1881 census:
James Mc Brearty Head Married Male 46 1835 Police Constable Ireland
Catherine Mc Brearty Wife Married Female 40 1841 Police Constable Wife Ireland
Catherine Mc Brearty Daughter Single Female 15 1866 Dressmaker Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Francis Mc Brearty Son Single Male 4 1877 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John O Neill Boarder Widower Male 60 1821 Police Constable Ireland
4, Gwendoline Street, Toxteth Park, Lancashire, England
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Head John Neill 29
Wife Julia Neill 26
Son James Neill 5
Son Thomas Neill 2
Visitor James Smith 25
Visitor Margret Smith 22
1851 census. Checking the image, it definitely is O'Neill. I've checked the ages and they're bang on too. John was a shoemaker and his birthplace is Armagh, the same birthplace is given for Julia and James. Thomas is Liverpool born.
If this is the correct line, then that significantly narrows the gap of their immigration.
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Both those look great. I was looking for them in 1851 as they should be there because of Thomas. :)
I posted Thomas’ baptism a couple of posts ago.
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I am amending this to include all children -
Godparents names are useful as they are often close family members.
Ancestry Lancashire Catholic BDM
At Patricks Liverpool Baptism
O'NEILL Helen ps John / Julia McNAMEY 15 Mar / 21 Mar 1847
Godparents Joseph WRIGHT (?) Bridget WRIGHT (?)
O'NEILL Thomas ps John / Julia McNAMEE 1 Feb / 11 Feb 1849
Godparents Francis BYRNE / Ann O'NEILL
O'NEILL John ps John / Julia McNAMER 22 May / 3 Jun 1851
Godparents Margaret SMITH
O'NEILL Mary Ann ps John / Julia McNAMEE 3 Mar / 14 Mar 1853
Godparent Mary O'KEEFE
O'NEILL Susanna ps John / Julia McNAMEE 3 Feb / 17 Feb 1855
Godparents Julia McDERMOT
O'NEILL Joseph ps John / Julia McNAMEE 17 Jan / 20 Jan 1859
Godparent Maria Josepha DUNLEVY
O'NEILL Susanna ps John / Julia McNAMER 24 Jul / 4 Aug 1861
Godparents Denis CASH, Margaret CAMPBELL
O'NEILL Cornelius ps John / Julia McNAMER 8 Jul / 9 Jul 1865
Godparents George ENNIS , Mary ENNIS
O'NEILL Joanna ps John / Julia McNEMEE 22 Sep / 23 Sep 1870
Godparents George ENNIS, Mary ENNIS
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Thank you wivenhoe.
I'm just been perusing Ancestry trees and I've found multiple trees about the same John O'Neill. Apparently he was born to Joanna Flaherty and William O'Neill in Tralee and remarried after Julia's death. Most interestingly he seemed to spend parts of his life bobbing between Ireland, Australia and England. There's some stuff about William and that whole Australian emigration imprisonment schtick, but I can't work out if he was an inmate or some kind of employee.
I'm going to take a letter I found to the decipher corps on here and see if they can make something of it, since I can only make out every other word.
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I'm just been perusing Ancestry trees and I've found multiple trees about the same John O'Neill. Apparently he was born to Joanna Flaherty and William O'Neill in Tralee and remarried after Julia's death. Most interestingly he seemed to spend parts of his life bobbing between Ireland, Australia and England.
That is just silly. You would be a lot less confused if you stop looking at Ancestry trees.
Debra :)
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Ancestry Catholic BDM Liverpool
burial St Oswalds Ford Cemetery
O'NEILL Susana 36 Star St Toxteth Park 10 Dec 1856
burial Ford Cemetery
O'NEILL Cornelius 2 Oct 1865 3m 8 St James Terrace ***
burial Ford Cemetery
O'NEILL Ellen 26 Mar 1881 40y 20Ct 5Ho Collingwood St
Census 1871 at Ho6 Court 16 Collingwood St Liverpool
HUGHES Thos. 39y head labourer b. Ireland
HUGHES Hannah 33y wife b. Liverpool Lancashire
HALIGAN Michael 22y lodger b. Liverpool Lancashire
HALIGAN Mary A 21y wife b. Liverpool Lancashire
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There is confusion there wivenhoe as we have noted before.
i won’t post it all as it has been posted earlier.
You mention the Halligan family but there is also
23rd February 1873
Terence Murphy and Mary Ann O’Neill - Father John and address 18 Sefton Square
The Murphys are with the Bramwells in later censuses.
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I'm just been perusing Ancestry trees and I've found multiple trees about the same John O'Neill. Apparently he was born to Joanna Flaherty and William O'Neill in Tralee and remarried after Julia's death. Most interestingly he seemed to spend parts of his life bobbing between Ireland, Australia and England.
That is just silly. You would be a lot less confused if you stop looking at Ancestry trees.
Debra :)
So would we!
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I'm just been perusing Ancestry trees and I've found multiple trees about the same John O'Neill. Apparently he was born to Joanna Flaherty and William O'Neill in Tralee and remarried after Julia's death. Most interestingly he seemed to spend parts of his life bobbing between Ireland, Australia and England.
That is just silly. You would be a lot less confused if you stop looking at Ancestry trees.
Debra :)
I was obviously cautious about it, so did try and track down the original person who compiled this, since it's an infection that's spread to many trees. One person I messaged said they didn't even know about any O'Neills and that they must have just blanket copied all the information. With that level of cautiousness, no wonder they've managed to rack up over 63000 people on their tree. Anyway, at least I was right to hold out from changing any established information on my tree and my Wikitree.
It's just frustrating that people can be so careless. In my view, genealogy should be treated as sacred. Here I am spending a week or more just to establish one generation as best I can, and there are some spending thirty seconds on it.
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In researching the origins of Julia Joesphine O'NEILL, father Police Constable, married John BRAAMWELL, 1890, Liverpool Lancashire -
* the 1911 Census, with Joseph Patrick MURPHY 34y single b. Liverpool.....and.....James Francis MURPHY 37Y, married, b. Liverpool....recorded as nephews...leads to ....
* Mary Ann O'NEIL, married Terence MURPHY, 1873.
* Your Julia Josephine is possibly the daughter of the John O'NEILL - Julia McNAMEE family.
* Birth, Julia Josephine O'NEILL, 1870, West Derby......mms McNAMEE...is a good fit for your Julia.
* Mary Ann O'NEILL marr. Michael HALLIGAN, 1870...would seem to have a good claim to be the Mary Ann of the O'NEILL - McNAMEE family.
The two Mary Ann O'NEILLS become a problem.
*The Census describes people as relating to head of household....John BRAMWELL. The MURPHY nephews should be nephews of John BRAMWELL, but by the customs of the times, they could equally be nephews of Julia Josephine BRAMWELL nee O'NEILL, which is what we have pursued.
*Are the MURPHYs BRAMWELL nephews, not O'NEILL nephews?
*If your Julia Josephine is daughter of O'NEILL - McNAMEE family, she is very young when Julia (McNAMEE) O'NEILL died, 1876. Who raised her?. Where is your Julia in the 1881 Census?
The marriage certificate BRAMWELL - O'NEILL, 1890.......can you list all the information on it please. There should be addresses....what are they?
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In researching the origins of Julia Joesphine O'NEILL, father Police Constable, married John BRAAMWELL, 1890, Liverpool Lancashire -
* the 1911 Census, with Joseph Patrick MURPHY 34y single b. Liverpool.....and.....James Francis MURPHY 37Y, married, b. Liverpool....recorded as nephews...leads to ....
* Mary Ann O'NEIL, married Terence MURPHY, 1873.
* Your Julia Josephine is possibly the daughter of the John O'NEILL - Julia McNAMEE family.
* Birth, Julia Josephine O'NEILL, 1870, West Derby......mms McNAMEE...is a good fit for your Julia.
* Mary Ann O'NEILL marr. Michael HALLIGAN, 1870...would seem to have a good claim to be the Mary Ann of the O'NEILL - McNAMEE family.
The two Mary Ann O'NEILLS become a problem.
*The Census describes people as relating to head of household....John BRAMWELL. The MURPHY nephews should be nephews of John BRAMWELL, but by the customs of the times, they could equally be nephews of Julia Josephine BRAMWELL nee O'NEILL, which is what we have pursued.
*Are the MURPHYs BRAMWELL nephews, not O'NEILL nephews?
*If your Julia Josephine is daughter of O'NEILL - McNAMEE family, she is very young when Julia (McNAMEE) O'NEILL died, 1876. Who raised her?. Where is your Julia in the 1881 Census?
The marriage certificate BRAMWELL - O'NEILL, 1890.......can you list all the information on it please. There should be addresses....what are they?
Hi, here's the marriage record:
(https://i.imgur.com/QYNPzGr.jpg)
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My opinion is (from memory though but hopefully all is in this thread)
1901 and 1911 Murphy nephews link to Julia
1891 and birth records Murphys with mmn O’Neill
Mary Ann O’Neill (marriage) and mother Julia O’Neill (death) both have Sefton Square as an address.
John O’Neill, Police Officer found with family including Mary A in 1861.
The children have mmn McNamee in births and baptisms.
I think that this is good evidence for tying all this together.
To be absolutely sure that Mary Ann who married Michael Halligan is not the one from the above family, you would need to check her father John’s occupation from the marriage certificate.
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My opinion is (from memory though but hopefully all is in this thread)
1901 and 1911 Murphy nephews link to Julia
1891 and birth records Murphys with mmn O’Neill
Mary Ann O’Neill (marriage) and mother Julia O’Neill (death) both have Sefton Square as an address.
John O’Neill, Police Officer found with family including Mary A in 1861.
The children have mmn McNamee in births and baptisms.
I think that this is good evidence for tying all this together.
To be absolutely sure that Mary Ann who married Michael Halligan is not the one from the above family, you would need to check her father John’s occupation from the marriage certificate.
I tracked down the marriage certificate, and it's a Catholic marriage. Took some bloody finding.
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That is the one quoted earlier that we already have Peter.
It would be the civil marriage certificate that would show John O’ Neill’s occupation.
The published tree I have seen does not have those details either.