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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Daniel Mathew Foley on Wednesday 25 March 20 04:21 GMT (UK)
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This is a letter of reference for my 3d Great Grandfather. Only two parts of the letter survive - but we cannot make heads or tails of most of it. We have deciphered most of the main body though, good workman, superior craftsman, et cet. Most wanting help on the signature and location below the signature. Any help is greatly appreciated.
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Why do you think the word below the signature must be a place name?
Sue
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The two words that look like Martha Park
The first letter of the second word must be an I. At least that’s how I was taught to do capital I in the olden days.
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I'm glad you think PARK. It was my first thought too.
Possibly PARKER with dwindling last 2 letters er
Sue
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I’ve been wondering if the bit above is Yours Sincerely
But the first letter doesn’t seem to be a Y
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Daniel, could we have a few clues as to country?
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This is gut feel more than reading, but for what it's worth:
The surname is Taylor.
The forename is one which can be contracted to end with one of -ny / -my / -ry.
For example it could be Humry for Hum(ph)ry.
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Ok.
I'm seeing it differently now.
Immediately under the text is the signature.
Ian? Humphrey
(place) ? Park
(place) ?
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Is the year 1838 or 1858?
And Daniel - what was your ancestor's name, and where was he around those dates?
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Could this be a Reference for someone from around Tipperary.
At the bottom, I see the last three lines as:-
.......... Murphy
.......... Park
Golden
There’s a place named Golden in Tipperary.
Cheers
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Why do you think the word below the signature must be a place name?
Sue
Hey Sue, thanks so much for participating. We have a few letters like this, and the convention at the time seemed to be a signature then a place, then a date.
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Could this be a Reference for someone from around Tipperary.
At the bottom, I see the last three lines as:-
.......... Murphy
.......... Park
Golden
There’s a place named Golden in Tipperary.
Cheers
LH
Wow, that fits perfectly. My ancestor was definitely from Tipperary and we believe him to have been connected to the Mathew family of Thomastown / Golden somehow. As a matter of fact, my screen name is my ancestor's name, Daniel Mathew Foley. Golden would fit right in, but frankly the handwriting is so eccentric to my eye that I never even thought that said "Golden". This is really great!! Thanks.
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Daniel, could we have a few clues as to country?
Sorry! Ireland, could be Tipperary or Cork. We have similar letters from the year 1838, in Cork. Elsewhere on this thread someone thought the place name was "Golden" which is precisely a mile or so from where we believe him to be from - Thomastown or Cashel, Tipperary South Riding.
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The two words that look like Martha Park
The first letter of the second word must be an I. At least that’s how I was taught to do capital I in the olden days.
Thanks so much! Gonna keep at it. We may be onto something here.
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I'm glad you think PARK. It was my first thought too.
Possibly PARKER with dwindling last 2 letters er
Sue
Thank you very much. Im going to absorb all these thoughts and get back at it. Ill post something tomorrow.
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Ok.
I'm seeing it differently now.
Immediately under the text is the signature.
Ian? Humphrey
(place) ? Park
(place) ?
Excellent... this is so helpful.!!!! THANKS
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This is gut feel more than reading, but for what it's worth:
The surname is Taylor.
The forename is one which can be contracted to end with one of -ny / -my / -ry.
For example it could be Humry for Hum(ph)ry.
This is really epic help. All of these postings are really helping a lot. Thanks so much
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Could the "Park" be part of 'Castle Park'?
Now that we are onto Golden as a possible place, I found this:
https://www.townlands.ie/tipperary/clanwilliam/relickmurry-and-athassel/golden/castlepark/
This would all be too perfect if it really says Castle Park, but I think it does. What do you guys think?
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If a word at the end of the second line of the text begins with a capital C (Carpenter?), then I don't think this can be Castle. The letter appears very different.
Bev
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If a word at the end of the second line of the text begins with a capital C (Carpenter?), then I don't think this can be Castle. The letter appears very different.
Bev
Also one of the things that this writer did do was cross his t 's
Not much else! The letter you were hoping was a 't' in castle does not seem to be crossed.
Sue
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If a word at the end of the second line of the text begins with a capital C (Carpenter?), then I don't think this can be Castle. The letter appears very different.
Bev
You're quite right! I agree...
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If a word at the end of the second line of the text begins with a capital C (Carpenter?), then I don't think this can be Castle. The letter appears very different.
Bev
Also one of the things that this writer did do was cross his t 's
Not much else! The letter you were hoping was a 't' in castle does not seem to be crossed.
Sue
true! - but I wasn't hoping for anything particular really. This is a puzzle. I'm just waiting to see where it goes. It would have been too good to be true if it were Castle Park
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On Griffiths Valuation in 1850 there is a Daniel Foley in a place called Fethard in Co Tipperary.
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The two words that look like Martha Park
The first letter of the second word must be an I. At least that’s how I was taught to do capital I in the olden days.
Do you mean the first letter of the second word of what I assume to be the signature? The one with a wide underscript swinging to the reader's right, and comes back again to the second letter?
Any idea of what that second letter would be?
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On Griffiths Valuation in 1850 there is a Daniel Foley in a place called Fethard in Co Tipperary.
I saw that - my Daniel went to the USA in about 46 or 47 but it could be someone related to him.
We have some other papers that seem to place him working for a Michael Green, who is a landowner in Golden Tipperary. So I think the Foleys in Cashel (horeabbey) are the ones, but can't get any further than that at the moment.
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The two words that look like Martha Park
The first letter of the second word must be an I. At least that’s how I was taught to do capital I in the olden days.
Do you mean the first letter of the second word of what I assume to be the signature? The one with a wide underscript swinging to the reader's right, and comes back again to the second letter?
Any idea of what that second letter would be?
If I may take the liberty of first answering for Mckha, I think his or her post refers to the letter in Signature_Section_Initial.jpg as attached.
If I read you correctly, you are referring to the section in Signature_Flourish.jpg as attached.
My interpretation of this latter section is that the forename ends with a superscript contraction as was common in this period. Common examples are Jno, Jas & Thos.
I think this one ends with a y, and the underscript (as you describe it) is a flourish, continuing from the tail of that y and joining onto the first letter of the surname - which is probably T.
Finally, regarding the letter in Signature_Section_Initial.jpg, it doesn't look like the I in what I think is ...I believe him... in the main text above.
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I posted the same question on Reddit. Here are some thoughts about the text from that string
https://www.reddit.com/r/Genealogy/comments/fh8ylv/can_anyone_read_this_writing_ireland_1838/
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The two words that look like Martha Park
The first letter of the second word must be an I. At least that’s how I was taught to do capital I in the olden days.
Do you mean the first letter of the second word of what I assume to be the signature? The one with a wide underscript swinging to the reader's right, and comes back again to the second letter?
Any idea of what that second letter would be?
If I may take the liberty of first answering for Mckha, I think his or her post refers to the letter in Signature_Section_Initial.jpg as attached.
If I read you correctly, you are referring to the section in Signature_Flourish.jpg as attached.
My interpretation of this latter section is that the forename ends with a superscript contraction as was common in this period. Common examples are Jno, Jas & Thos.
I think this one ends with a y, and the underscript (as you describe it) is a flourish, continuing from the tail of that y and joining onto the first letter of the surname - which is probably T.
Finally, regarding the letter in Signature_Section_Initial.jpg, it doesn't look like the I in what I think is ...I believe him... in the main text above.
Is your idea of the letter P in Signature_Section_Initial.jpg that it would have looked like A or B example here?
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Is your idea of the letter P in Signature_Section_Initial.jpg that it would have looked like A or B example here?
I haven't suggested that that letter is a P. Others have mentioned the word Park.
If I had to take a stab to save my life, I would say it's a T.
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A signature and address are the kind of things that people write out repeatedly. As such the letter forms can easily become corrupted, but might also have a few extra flourishes. In view of that, and after a bit of research, I think it could be Lawrence (abbreviated?) Creagh of Castle Park.
As has been pointed out, Castle Park is an estate and townland in Golden, and in that period it was owned by a family named Creagh. The two forenames I've found are Richard and Lawrence; this looks to me more like the latter. See the following pages:
http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/estate-show.jsp?id=3333
http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/family-show.jsp?id=3335
http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/property-show.jsp?id=4121
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A signature and address are the kind of things that people write out repeatedly. As such the letter forms can easily become corrupted, but might also have a few extra flourishes. In view of that, and after a bit of research, I think it could be Lawrence (abbreviated?) Creagh of Castle Park.
As has been pointed out, Castle Park is an estate and townland in Golden, and in that period it was owned by a family named Creagh. The two forenames I've found are Richard and Lawrence; this looks to me more like the latter. See the following pages:
http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/estate-show.jsp?id=3333
http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/family-show.jsp?id=3335
http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/property-show.jsp?id=4121
Wow this is incredible. Let me take a look and get back with you. Thanks!
I've written to the descendants of the Creaghe family, who maintain a historical association, to see if they have record of his writing; also, in the Dublin Archives:
The Registered Papers of the Chief Secretary's Office: National Archives: CSO/RP (search results)
These papers have several letters of Laurence Creaghe - should be obvious if it is his writing.
Now when will I be able to get to Dublin..... lol Anyone live there?
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(https://funktasia.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/1/3/131366875/2_orig.jpg)
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(https://funktasia.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/1/3/131366875/2_orig.jpg)
Thanks Zoe! That makes it a bit easier to read, especially that fourth line with the one word kind of blanked out
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All
Here's an example of an elaborate "P" to help potential identification of the earlier "P" in what we propose is "Park"
ed
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(https://funktasia.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/1/3/131366875/2_orig.jpg)
Thanks Zoe! That makes it a bit easier to read, especially that fourth line with the one word kind of blanked out
I think the missing portion says
a very superior workman,
"he understands architecture"
and i believe him....
Which makes the A in architecture the same as what we were thinking is a C in "Castle Park"
So Im not sure it says Castle Park for the place after all.
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.... Which makes the A in architecture the same as what we were thinking is a C in "Castle Park"
So Im not sure it says Castle Park for the place after all.
Except that on the line below Castle Park there's April, with a very different 'A'.