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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: New Zealander on Friday 20 March 20 07:40 GMT (UK)
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Ethel Jane Kelly aged seven years died on the 07.01.1930 as a result of an accident at Mokotua east of Invercargill when a Ministerial Train on the Seaward Bush Branch Railway Line collided with a truck.
The truck was driven by her father Arthur William Kelly aged 32 years who also perished as a result of the accident.
Both Ethel Kelly and her father can be found interred in the Eastern Cemetery, Invercargill.
This accident was well reported in the newspapers of the time both locally and up and down the country. The Southland Times is not searchable on Papers Past post 1920 either for Ethel Kelly's birth or her death in 1930.
The problem now is that I can not find a record of Ethel Jane Kelly's birth. This does not appear on Births, Deaths and Marriages Online. Her death record simply states that she was 7 years of age.
A number of Public family Trees on Ancestry.Com all record Ethel's date D.O.B. as 1923 an easy assumption I guess. Family Search gives a similar result
Information for Births on BDM Online is not available unless a birth is more then 100 years ago, hence I cannot search for Ethel's precise date of birth if it is recorded at all.
Ethel Jane's mother is recorded as Rhoda Jane Kelly wife of Alexander William Kelly. She later remarried and became Rhoda Jane Metzger and is recorded on the Kelly grave site in Invercargill when she passed away in 1971.
Perhaps I am missing the obvious somewhere!!
Please, can anyone assist with Ethel Jane Kelly's record of birth?
Any help or assistance would be much appreciated.
Alex G aka New Zealander
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The birth microfiche* are available for searching at the main libraries. [If you can find one open right now!]
*This will provide the year, quarter when registered and place of registration.
Minniehaha.
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Post deleted.
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Thank you for the suggestion. The Invercargill City Library was open this afternoon, albeit very quiet. No hint of closure yet but remains a possibility.
Will try again over the weekend
Cheers
Alex G
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Unfortunately the Birth Microfiche records at the Invercargill Library do not not show any birth for Ethel Jane Kelly ???
Alex G a.k.a. New Zealander
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When did Arthur & Rhoda marry? If after 1923 perhaps she is registered under Rhoda's maiden name
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Hi Carol
Arthur William Kelly and Rhoda Jane Collins, Ethel's parents, were married in 1920. This from NZSG Marriages 1836 - 1956.
Yes, I had thought of that one as well and wondered if Ethel had been registered under her mother's maiden name of Collins. Unfortunately with the 100 year rule with BDM Online that cannot be searched. There is no record for Ethel's birth before 1920 on BDM.
Is still odd that the birth is not registered. Her age of 7 years is given on Ethel's death record. She must have been born somewhere.
There is no evidence that the family ever lived anywhere but Invercargill or Southland so she must have been born in New Zealand.
I will try writing to Birth's, Death's and marriages and see if they can provide an explanation.
Cheers
Alex G a.k.a. New Zealander
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Hello Alex,
Just out of interest, have you found the birth registration for her big brother?
His will:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C91R-H3B7-C?i=440&cc=1865481&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQKYR-Y339
Cenotaph record:
https://www.aucklandmuseum.com/war-memorial/online-cenotaph/record/C27946?n=alexander%20william%20kelly&ordinal=1&from=%2Fwar-memorial%2Fonline-cenotaph%2Fsearch
1945/56734 Kelly Alexander William 24Y
Minniehaha.
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Hello there
Yes have found the birth records for the rest of her family including her big brother killed at Cassino in 1944. This including photographs of his gravesite in Cassino.
Never thought about the will thank you.
Alex G a.k.a. New Zealander
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Hello Alex.
Is your Arthur William KELLY 32 etc on the second sentence of your opening post a typo. I'm assuming from the other [press & cemetery] record references, that both father and son [Ethel's brother] were called Alexander.
Alan.
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Not misspelled as "Kelley"?
Minniehaha.
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I was wondering about the era of hand writting and tried PapersPast for KEELY but nothing poped out at me.
Alan
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Alex do you think there is a chance that Ethel may have been adopted??
Just thinking outside the box. :)
Minniehaha.
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Nothing wrong with that Minnie, I was thinking the same about adoption. Didn't you recently deal with one similar - where the BDM didn't have the full date of birth?
Cheers
KHP
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Minnie
Honestly I don't know and had never thought of that previously but will seek answers.
Currently I am writing an e mail to BDM Online to seek clarification of Ethel Jane's lack of a birth record.
Thank you for your thoughts.
Cheers
Alex G aka New Zealander
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Nothing wrong with that Minnie, I was thinking the same about adoption. Didn't you recently deal with one similar - where the BDM didn't have the full date of birth?
Cheers
KHP
Hi KHP,
From memory the one I was looking for had the birth registered under the same name as the adopted one nine years later. Christian names were the same too. I could only conclude that as the child was older when adopted it would have been difficult for the child to have a name change. With the adopted surname being the same as the birth name I thought it was perhaps a 'within family' adoption.
Alex, was Ethel the only girl in the family? Was she the last child?
Minniehaha.
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Minnie
To the best of my knowledge there was two children in the family
1/.. Alexander William Kelly (born 1920 died 1944 at Cassino in WW2)
2/.. Ethel Jane Kelly (Born 1923? Died as result of accident at Mokotua 08.01.1930)
I have now sent an inquiry to BDM to explain the birth record of Ethel Jane Kelly. I should receive a reply next week sometime.
Also the Coroner's report for the deaths of Alexander William Kelly and Ethel Jane Kelly is sitting at Archives NZ in Wellington. I had a trip to Wellington to examine that file and others for next month which has now been put on hold because of the Covid-19 virus.
Now the other possibility that I might yet place further post on this forum to locate any New Zealand Railway files at Archives NZ relating to the rail accident and deaths at Mokotua in 1930 and see what that contains.
Some where there will be an answer!!
Cheers
Alex G a.k.a. New Zealander
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Hi Alex,
It appears that the coroners report may well be on FamilySearch
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/544929?availability=Family%20History%20Library
You need to log in to view them and it may take a bit of time find the correct film
Cheers Janette
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Janette
Thank you
Alex
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Hi Alex,
I was wondering if you had thought of searching the school records as the child was seven. I am making the assumption that she went to school.
Regards Crowsfeet
also a NZer
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Hi Alex,
Now this is probably a daft question, but did you check for her birth in 1922? As she died right at the beginning of 1930 aged 7 years, she may not yet have had her birthday that year..
Minniehaha.
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Minnie and Crowsfeet
Not daft questions at all.
Yes, I checked school records at the Invercargill Library a couple of days ago. Found nothing for schools close to their home in William Street in 1930. There remains a possibility that the children attended country schools in the Mokotua district and have yet to follow through on that.
I have made a number of searches using different years and variation of Kelly name for Ethel's birth .. again nothing.
Got a query off to BDM this morning.
Cheers
Alex aka New Zealander
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Let us know how you get on Alex...... :)
Minniehaha.
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Hello again Alex.
RE:-
Now the other possibility that I might yet place further post on this forum to locate any New Zealand Railway files at Archives NZ relating to the rail accident and deaths at Mokotua in 1930 and see what that contains.
I'm not familiar with your location, nor details, so limited in my search options, but found few files that might have helped.
Health central filing system
ABQU 632 W4452/1 1-1 Accidents - Motor Vehicles - Accidents, Motor Traffic, Railway Crossings (E810-845) 1930 1956 Wgtn
Papers brought before the Houses of Parliament and records of Select Committees [record group]
AEBE 18507 LE1/844 1926/170 Accounts and Papers - VII - Schedule of Accounts and Papers laid upon the table - Session 1926 - Railways Department, working days lost by permanent and casual members of the second division of, trough sickness and accident during year 1925. 1926 1926 Wgtn
AEBE 18507 LE1/874 1927/239 Accounts and Papers - VII - Schedule of Accounts and Papers laid upon the table - Session 1927 - Railways, Department, number of accidents that have occurred 1927 1927 Wgtn
AEBE 18507 LE1/957 1930/232 Accounts and Papers - Schedule of Accounts and Papers laid upon the table - Session 1930 - Railways Department, level-crossing accidents, number and locality of, during first six moths of 1930 ORDER DETAILS » 1930 1930 Wgtn
Re The Wellington held Coroner's court report for Alexander & Ethel KELLY; Record R23508653 is restricted for preservation reasons, but a copy of the file is one of 300 on Micro U 5545 which I'm presuming can be viewed at that reading room once it reopens to the registered public guests.
Alan.
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Alan
Thank you for your effort.
Mokotua was a railway station and siding, about 30 kms east of Invercargill on the Seaward Bush Branch Line closed down on 31.03.1966.
The fatal crash that involved the Kelly family occurred on the 07.01.1930 at Mokotua.
Today I found a couple of files at Archives NZ in Wellington of interest:-
1/. Item No "R20481037" NZ Railway file of accident on 30.01.1930
2/. Item No "R16646748" NZ Railway file of Level Crossings Accidents 1930 - 1956
I was scheduled to visit Wellington for a week after Easter but because of the Covid-19 virus has been put on hold for the foreseeable future.
Cheers
Alex G
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Minnie
A few posts back (yesterday) you mentioned the will of Alexander William Kelly killed at Casino in 1944 and his record on the Auckland War Memorial Cenotaph.
On the Cenotaph record his age is given as 24 years.
Now searching his service record for WW1 on Archway NZ and his attestation to the NZ Army Alexander William Kelly's date of birth is given as 18.05.1898. This would make him 46 years at the time he was killed at Cassino in 1944 not the recorded 24 years on the Auckland Cenotaph.
Alexander William Kelly's father was also Alexander William Kelly who according to Births, Death's and Marriages was born on the 18.05.1898.
A search for the birth record for the son Alexander William Kelly (killed at Cassino 1944) like his sister Ethel Jane Kelly (killed in rail accident Mokotua 1930) shows there is no birth date recorded for either of the two siblings.
Very strange the births of two children from the same family not recorded!!
Hopefully my query to BDM today about Ethel Jane Kelly will provide an answer.
Alex G aka New Zealander
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From CWGC
Trooper KELLY, ALEXANDER WILLIAM
Service Number 200353
Died 14/06/1944
Aged 24
New Zealand Armoured Corps
Son of Alexander William Kelly, and of Rhoda Jane Kelly, of Invercargill, Southland, New Zealand.
Buried at CASSINO WAR CEMETERY
Location: Italy
Number of casualties: 3992
Cemetery/memorial reference: X. J. 21.
https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2410381/kelly,-alexander-william/
Cheers Janette
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A search for the birth record for the son Alexander William Kelly (killed at Cassino 1944) like his sister Ethel Jane Kelly (killed in rail accident Mokotua 1930) shows there is no birth date recorded for either of the two siblings.
Very strange the births of two children from the same family not recorded!!
Alex G aka New Zealander
Alex they are too late for NZ BDM's
The historic data available for you to search is limited so that information relating to people who might still be alive, can be protected. Information available includes:
Births that occurred at least 100 years ago
Stillbirths that occurred at least 50 years ago
Marriages that occurred 80 years ago
Deaths that occurred at least 50 years ago or the deceased's date of birth was at least 80 years ago.
Cheers Janette
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Janette
So obvious isn't it?
I wonder how the army messed up with Alexander's enlistment recording his DOB as 1898?
Despite all the searching you might think the DOB 's would have shown up somewhere else. I wonder how BDM would go if I applied for birth certificates?
Thanks Janette
Alex
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Hi Alex,
This is where you go for non-historical births etc........
https://www.bdmonline.dia.govt.nz/NonHistoricRecords
Minniehaha.
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Alex they are too late for NZ BDM's
The historic data available for you to search is limited so that information relating to people who might still be alive, can be protected. Information available includes:
Births that occurred at least 100 years ago
Stillbirths that occurred at least 50 years ago
Marriages that occurred 80 years ago
Deaths that occurred at least 50 years ago or the deceased's date of birth was at least 80 years ago.
Cheers Janette
Stated in post #4 that the microfiche have been searched which go beyond the 100 years.
Debra :)
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Janette
So obvious isn't it?
I wonder how the army messed up with Alexander's enlistment recording his DOB as 1898?
Despite all the searching you might think the DOB 's would have shown up somewhere else. I wonder how BDM would go if I applied for birth certificates?
Thanks Janette
Alex
Alex, the Alexander William Kelly who served in WW1 and born in 1898 was not the brother of Ethel Jane Kelly.
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=18055971&digital=yes
Minniehaha.
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You are correct
Alex C
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Hello Alex.
QUOTE:
Now searching his service record for WW1 on Archway NZ and his attestation to the NZ Army Alexander William Kelly's date of birth is given as 18.05.1898. This would make him 46 years at the time he was killed at Cassino in 1944 not the recorded 24 years on the Auckland Cenotaph.
Did his father serve in World War One? Same Christian/given names.
There was also a William Alexander KELLY who served in WWII.
Alan.
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Janette
Thank you for your input. Yes I understand the criteria when a person who was born less then 100 years ago their date of birth will not show.
However I do not understand the inconsistency of BDM with death records hence my difficulties with the two Kelly siblings.
As an example both my parents, now deceased were born either in or after 1920 (near identical years to the Kelly siblings) and on their death records each of my parents have their dates of birth recorded.
Why?
Alex G a.k.a. New Zealander
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See Janette's reply #27......
You can search for death records if:
• the death occurred at least 50 years ago, or
• the deceased's date of birth** was at least 80 years ago.
**When the age at death or date of birth will be recorded on line. {my words, not those of NZBDM}
Obviously there has been a change made along the way but for many, many years, only the age at death was shown.
Minniehaha.
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Doing a quick BDM search, it would appear that dates of birth start to show in the death indexes from the early 1970's. And of course only where the date of birth was known. :)
Minniehaha.
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Hello.
RE:
You can search for death records if:
• the death occurred at least 50 years ago, or
• the deceased's date of birth** was at least 80 years ago.
If there is no record of birth in the system, the 80 year factor can not apply, therefore affecting public release.
Alan.
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Hello.
RE:
You can search for death records if:
• the death occurred at least 50 years ago, or
• the deceased's date of birth** was at least 80 years ago.
If there is no record of birth in the system, the 80 year factor can not apply, therefore affecting public release.
Alan.
OOP"S, sorry Minniehaha, did not read your post above, well enough.
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BDM have now given me the answer over the telephone.
The existing death records of Ethel Jane Kelly (1930) and her brother Alexander William Kelly (1944) can not be amended or corrected because of the age or timing of their death record.
In the case of my parents their dates of births were more then 80 years (my mother's just by 2 months) at the time of their deaths hence dates of births are on each death record.
Now have to wait until for each of the Kelly sibling records to reach 100 years from date of death before their birth records (if known) become historical records and searchable online.
The only alternative now is to apply for non - historical birth / death printouts at $25.00 each if the information is available.
Alex G a.k.a. New Zealander