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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Carmarthenshire => Topic started by: roycymru on Wednesday 11 March 20 19:58 GMT (UK)
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Hi
Wondering if any of you can spot the below people in the 1841 census. In theory should be at a place called Plasbach/Placebach Llangendeirne but I can't find them
William Treharne a "Limer" born about 1771 (was 71 when he died at Plasbach in 1842)
Anne Owen(s) (nee Treharne) (William's daughter) born 12 Dec 1804 Llangendeirne (died 2 Nov 1879 Idaho), David Owens was born 15Sep1807, Llangendeirne (died 16Dec1879 Idaho). They married 03Mar1837 Llangendeirne. They are at Plasbach in 1851 and 1861 and I would think also probably at Plasbach in 1841. They was a daughter Jane Owen(s) age 11 in 1851 and therefore born around 1840 who should also be with them
Regards
Roy
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OWENS, JANE TREHARNE 1840 S Quarter in THE CARMARTHEN UNION Volume 26 Page 499
Is she the gal at ancestry Llan ddeiniolen, Caernarvonshire?
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OWENS, JANE TREHARNE 1840 S Quarter in THE CARMARTHEN UNION Volume 26 Page 499
Is she the gal at ancestry Llan ddeiniolen, Caernarvonshire?
Can't see thst it would be her heritage is definitely Llangendeirne, Carmarthenshire
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1841 census. In theory should be at a place called Plasbach/Placebach Llangendeirne but I can't find them
Below appears to be the reference number for 1841 census with address Placebach and the Thomas family are living there I did a quick check either side and can’t see David Owens and family
Registration district: Carmarthen
Sub-registration district: Llangendeirne
Piece: 1385
Book: 13
Folio: 16
Page Number: 25
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Thank you for locating this.
This corresponds to the Tithe Map entry from 1848 of William Thomas and family living at Plasbach https://places.library.wales/viewer/4541277#?cv=82&h=942&c=&m=&s=&manifest=https%3A%2F%2Fdamsssl.llgc.org.uk%2Fiiif%2F2.0%2F4541277%2Fmanifest.json&xywh=-475%2C1389%2C8043%2C3349
So its a bit of a mystery at present as Plasbach, Llangendeirne is the place of William’s death in 1842 and his daughter’s place of residence when she married in 1837 and the place of death of his wife Jane and daughter Mary in 1822 and 1825 respectively.
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Don’t know if it helps any but it looks like Plasbach was also known as “Van”.
Almost by chance I came across a picture of William’s (substantial) grave at Llangendeirne. The transcription given is:
“In/Memory of Jane, Wife of/Wm. Treharne of this parish, died/Nov.r 15 1822 aged 47 Years/Here Also Lieth the Body of the/Aforesaid Wm. Treharne of Van, who/died Nov.r 21 1842 Aged 71 Years/Also John son of David & Ann/Owens Van who died March 2nd/1853 Aged 8 Years.”
John must be a grandson of William, son of Ann Owens (nee Treharne) and David.
Although Van and Plasbach at first glance being the same place seems improbable, going back through the records I have, in the burial entry for William’s Daughter Mary her abode is called Plasbach Van Issa.
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On the 1879 to 1887 map, published: 1887, to the east of Llangyndeyrn there seems to be a large house called Lan. It is near a number of limekilns and quarries.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/102179747 (https://maps.nls.uk/view/102179747)
In Welsh there is no letter V and the word pronounced ‘van’ is written fan. Could this be a mistake in transcription? Also, the word issa, could it be isaf meaning lower? On google translate, plas bach means a small mansion.
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Thank you for this, a definite possibility
Someone else kindly sent me this on the possible translation of the name, with a slightly different interpretation
‘Plas’ is a palace or mansion.
‘Bach’ is small (in this context)
‘Van’ is not a Welsh word as there is no ‘v’ in the language. The Welsh equivalent is a single ‘f’ with ‘ff’ being pronounced as the English equivalent ‘f’!! I think the word in question is ‘Man’ which is place/location with the M becoming an F by mutation and pronounced as ‘van’ in Welsh!
‘Issa’ - again not a Welsh word per se. I believe it should be ‘Isaf’ which is translated as ‘lowest’. Lazy speakers sometimes pronounce it as ‘isa’ which can also be interpreted as ‘low’!
So this should give you something like ‘Small palace/mansion situated at a low point/location’.
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On later maps, Lan is a small collection of largish houses, so isaf could be the lower house in the collection. I am not a Welsh speaker, so mutations are beyond me, though understand the basics. There must be a transcription issue here, as it will not be Van if written by a Welsh speaker. Lan as a Welsh word, can be translated as; up, bank, side or church. 'Plasbach Van Issa' makes sense apart from the letter V. Is the original document available?
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Don’t know if it helps any but it looks like Plasbach was also known as “Van”.
Almost by chance I came across a picture of William’s (substantial) grave at Llangendeirne. The transcription given is:
“In/Memory of Jane, Wife of/Wm. Treharne of this parish, died/Nov.r 15 1822 aged 47 Years/Here Also Lieth the Body of the/Aforesaid Wm. Treharne of Van, who/died Nov.r 21 1842 Aged 71 Years/Also John son of David & Ann/Owens Van who died March 2nd/1853 Aged 8 Years.”
John must be a grandson of William, son of Ann Owens (nee Treharne) and David.
John OWEN mmn TREHARNE
1845 J Quarter in CARMARTHEN UNION Volume 26 Page 547
On the 1851 census Piece: 2472 Folio: 201 Page Number: 10
next door to David Owen address Placebach is Mary Evan Shopkeeper address looks to read Van Shop
- have added snippet
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Great spot. Looking in the 1861 Census there is a Richard Edmund a mason and family at "Van" (on the page before Placebach). So definitely a placed called Van although Van is not obviously a Welsh name. Can anyone find it in 1841? Have also added a picture of William's burial record at Vann (although as mentioned previously, of his death certificate his residence is given as Plasbach)
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On the 1879 to 1887 map, published: 1887, to the east of Llangyndeyrn there seems to be a large house called Lan. It is near a number of limekilns and quarries.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/102179747 (https://maps.nls.uk/view/102179747)
In Welsh there is no letter V and the word pronounced ‘van’ is written fan. Could this be a mistake in transcription? Also, the word issa, could it be isaf meaning lower? On google translate, plas bach means a small mansion.
For some reason I can’t see LAN on the map can you please direct me to it.
If you search Welsh newspapers on line there are several,references to the the Van Lime Kilns and the quality of “Van Lime”
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4335483/4335486/46/Van%20AND%20Llangendeirne
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3364222/3364224/18/Van%20AND%20Llangendeirne
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4347394/4347397/35/Van%20AND%20Llangendeirne
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4352630/4352636/37/Van%20AND%20Lime
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On the 1879 to 1887 map, published: 1889. Lan is east of Llangyndeyrn, north, northeast of Crwbin by the arc of limekilns and quarries. On the early maps it looks like one large house, then on later maps there are several buildings drawn. It still exists on Google Maps.
This is a different map section: https://maps.nls.uk/view/102179741 (https://maps.nls.uk/view/102179741)
There is a small place called Fan, top right, beneath the same limekilns and quarries. It would be pronounced Van and could be a transcribing error. Although small, because of the industry, it could have required a shop. It is also close to Llangyndeyrn but south.
It strikes me as being the localised description, rather than Plasbach being a place on the map. A small mansion (or group of) people would recognise. If the limekilns were known as Van, it could be either Lan or Fan as both are close to the kilns. Just to add further confusion.
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My hunch would be, the kilns/quarries had English owners, or English speakers and probably selling to England, so Fan pronounced Van would be confusing, therefore easier to call them Van Lime Kilns and your product Van Lime. Exporting your lime to south west England would be easy from Bury Port (maybe not old enough for 1840s) or Kidwelly. Considering the size of this industry, it is too large for local use only and transporting by boat was easier than road.
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Thank you for your help and input, very much appreciated. I wouldn’t be surprised if William was known locally under the colloquial name “Will Van”, being William of the small mansion located in the lower region on Van lime links. Lower in this context could equate to “south of” which would fit the location of Fan/Van in relation to the lime kilns in the map.
Not at my computer at the moment, but I will add a picture of his gravestone. Looking a it afresh I wouldn’t be surprised if it was actually made from limestone, I would welcome thoughts on this when I post the picture.
I am fairly confident that Willian’s father was a John Treharne of Glynsyllen a wealthy gentleman of Llanelly. He left a Will 1825, where, although of Llanelly, he specifically states he wants to be buried at Llangendeirne, as near as possible to his other relatives and there is a corresponding burial record for him in the Llangendeirne parish records. This is why, as per a separate post, I am keen for any pictures of Treharne gravestones at Llangendeirne. The only one I have come across so far is that of William and that was purely by chance.
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Picture of William's grave. Made of limestone?
From the size of the grave, also looks to be someone of reasonable means
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Lan/Fan! Have been trying to narrow down which might be Van!
Lan to the south east of Llangendeirne, near Cwrbin, seems the more logical place. However, I think is more likely to be Fan, near Gwempa to the South West of Llangendeirne https://maps.nls.uk/view/102179741 (to right hand corner)
In the 1851 and 1861 Census the enumerator states the area Van and Plasbach lie in is in the hamlet of Gwempa, Llangendeirne. It is difficult to know retrospectively the exact area this covered but in the 1861 census Gwempa, Llwyn y fynnon, Pant y Meillion and Blaen y Meillion are also listed as close by to Fan. There are also several Lime burners in the area and several Lime Kilns on the map. And if you expand this map https://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/301817/details/gwempa-pontantwn Van farm is close by, to the south east of Gwempa.
As previously mentioned Fan would be pronounced as Van, so to me this all seems to fit.
Feel free to disagree!
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Most of this is disjointed as I kept looking while Rootschat was not available. I updated my browser and Rootschat was the only site I could not access, now resolved.
This morning, I went for a drive, down the tiny roads either side of Crwbin and found nothing. Then I called at the library and looked at an OS Map. Lan is still present and named as a hamlet of houses. There is a property called Van Farm very close to the hamlet of Fan I found on the 1889 map, off the B4309, northwest of Meinciau. It is on the other side of the road to the present quarry. Looking at Street View, it is a large farm complex, though probably not dating back to 1840. From the aerial view, there are more houses I could not see from the road. When I click on those houses, it says they are in Llangyndeyrn, not Meinciau. On the OS map, Llangyndeyrn was a large district that took in most of the limekilns and quarries.
I have found two places called Plas-bâch. https://maps.nls.uk/view/102179738 (https://maps.nls.uk/view/102179738)
Carmarthenshire XLVI.SE (includes: Kidwelly; Llandyfaelog; Llangyndeyrn.)
Revised: 1905 . Published: 1907. Bottom left corner. It is the opposite corner to Fan and may not be in Llangyndeyrn. But there is another just outside Llangyndeyrn. https://maps.nls.uk/view/102179744 (https://maps.nls.uk/view/102179744) - Carmarthenshire XLVII.NW (includes: Llangyndeyrn.) Revised: 1905 . Published: 1907. Top left corner. Llangyndeyrn is on the left edge just above halfway. Looking on Google Maps, it could still be standing and now a farm.
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4347394/4347397/35/ (https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4347394/4347397/35/)
The Welshman . 23rd May 1851
THE COST OF LIME. To the Editor of the Welshman. Sir, Will you allow me to ask through your columns what is the reason that lime at the Van Issa and Mynydd-y-garreg Quarries, situate in the parishes of Llangendeirne and Kidwelly, has risen in price nearly double to what it was in years of Protection?
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3582375/3582377/22/ (https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3582375/3582377/22/)
The Carmarthen Weekly Reporter (Supplement) . 26th March 1897
fatal accident took place at Van-issa Quarry, Llangendeime, about 10 a.m. David Bowen (38), a lime burner and quarryman, living at Blaenpant, was working at a portion of the quarry rented from Mr Fitzwilliams, Adpar House, Newcastle-Emlyn.
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4352090/4352094/11/ (https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4352090/4352094/11/)
The Welshman . 24th April 1863
It talks of constructing a railway line from Kidwelly and is an interesting read, about the wealthy owners wanting more. ‘One is a revival of these mineral branches, under a new company, the other is to make a line from Kidwelly to Van-issa and Van-ucha, and to Gorsgoch, at the top of the Llanelly Railway, for the purpose, it is stated, of opening all the lime and coal in the valley.
From that, it is clear Van is a quarry with issa and ucha being lower and upper. If you follow parts of the line on the 1907 map it heads up the valley towards the mining area near Fan, then probably sweeps around to the area of Lan. The issue is not knowing where Gorsgoch is, as I could not find it on Genuki, but from newspapers in Jan/Feb 1880, it seems ‘THE GORSGOCH COLLIERY and FIREBRICK 1 WORKS, situate at MYNYDD MAWR, near LLANELLY’ which then links lime to coal and Llanelly, then Swansea.
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4355476/4355480/19/ (https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4355476/4355480/19/)
The Welshman . 16th July 1875
LOT 3. All those two desirable Farms, called "LAN & WERN," With suitable Farm-house and Out-buildings, and 122a. 3r. 3p., or thereabouts, of capital Arable, Pasture, and Meadow Land, in the occupation of Mr John Thomas, as yearly tenant; together with the Lime Rocks and Kilns, called Van-ucha, and the Lime-stone Quarry… The Property is well supplied with water, it is intersected by capital roads, in close proximity to the celebrated Van Lime-kilns, and within easy distances of several well-known Collieries. It would seem, Lan was a farm not a hamlet.
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Wow! Thanks for taking the time and making the effort to do this, much appreciated. Are we any really clearer whether we think Van is Fan or Lan?
Not sure if it clarifies or confused things but on the tithe maps from 1848 there is a farm called Van occupied by a David Hughes comprised of field numbers 1688-1703 occupied by David Hughes, near Llwynyffynon and the quarries/kilns nearby. I agree Van Issa and Ucha are quarries/kilns and it is not unreasonable to assume they would be named after a farm called a Van nearby. If you click on the associated links to maps and apportionments for the fields you can see what I mean. There is also a field called Ffan in the same area!
https://places.library.wales/search/51.779/-4.248/16?alt=&page=1&refine=&query=Van&order=desc&sort=score&rows=100&parish_facet%5B%5D=Llangyndeyrn&leaflet-base-layers_92=on
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Have also that there is a second page to Van occupied by David Hughes
https://places.library.wales/viewer/4541277#?cv=126&h=942&c=&m=&s=&manifest=https%3A%2F%2Fdamsssl.llgc.org.uk%2Fiiif%2F2.0%2F4541277%2Fmanifest.json&xywh=596%2C38%2C4605%2C2332
Where there is entry number 1974 a Limestone Quarry
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Have also that there is a second page to Van occupied by David Hughes
https://places.library.wales/viewer/4541277#?cv=126&h=942&c=&m=&s=&manifest=https%3A%2F%2Fdamsssl.llgc.org.uk%2Fiiif%2F2.0%2F4541277%2Fmanifest.json&xywh=596%2C38%2C4605%2C2332
Is number 1974 a Limestone Quarry
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From either of the two Plas-bâch options given, I do not see any logical link to the Gwempa area. The residence I feel will be Plas-bâch. Online maps do not go back far enough, as a large house could have been demolished, especially as the industry expanded. I now think Lan and Fan were large farmhouses with land. Fan translates to summit, region, place or spot, which I then think, was corrupted for the English market to Van. The word Van, could have been a house, it is certainly a farm with land, but looks linked more to industry.
I have looked at the Tithe map and there are fields called Van, linked to Van Farm south of the road and west of Lan, but also opposite spreading into the mining areas. In that area, I do not see anything substantial enough for the home. The large dwellings are named, nothing to suggest a small mansion. At present, I can only link Van with Fan.
Plas-bâch a little north of Llangyndeyrn, is near to the church. Why would he want to be buried there if there not a close link? The census entry about living next to a shop bothered me, as I struggled to make that connection in Lan or Fan. If the recorder went from Plas-bâch into Llangyndeyrn village, the next property could have been a shop. Though given the industry and number of workers around Lan, there would need to be a local shop and services like the Smithy. As there are at least two houses called Plas-bâch, and another near Pontyates with colliery, cottages and house, there would need to be an additional identifier like Van.
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3582650/3582654/26/ (https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3582650/3582654/26/)
The Carmarthen Weekly Reporter . 26th November 1897
Carmarthenshire County Council. MEETING OF THE MAIN ROADS SUB-COMMITTEE. 7s 3d Five Roads to the Van, William Treharne, 5s; the Van to near Foxhole. From that, the Van was between Five Roads and Foxhole. I remember seeing Foxhole, but for now I cannot find it. That may suggest there were other areas called Van, as Van Lime increased its size.
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Thanks you for everyone's time and effort on this, especially Talacharn, I can't thank you enough.
Although there is still conflicting information. My current thoughts on this are that the Plasbach's on the maps are unfortunately red herrings. The Plasbach that William Treharne lived at and then his daughter Ann, who married a David Owens I don't think is detailed on maps. In 1851 it is a small property (7 acres), which had expanded to 20 acres by 1861. Before 1851 it may have been even smaller, a truly small mansion!
The above is based on looking again at Plasbach in the 1851 and 1861 census and in particular the 1861 census where I have tried to follow the route the enumerator may have taken. Plasbach definitively is in the same area as Van, Llwynyfynnon, Dany yr Allt, Van, Blaen-Meilion etc. and I think Plasbach may have originally just been part of the Quarry "complex".
Also of significance are that South East/South of Van/Fan are Minke (Meinciau) and Ffos Wilkin where William's sons John and Griffith Treharne lived.
Trying to follow the path of the enumerator in 1861 on these maps. The sequence doesn’t seen entirely logical but the general path as seen on the below maps is:
https://maps.nls.uk/view/102179738
17 Halfway (Halfway House) – Public House then left to
18 Pantgwenny (Pant-gwinau) (Farm 0f 79 acres), then south to
19 Dan yr Allt (Farm of 40 Acres), the NE to
20 Bancymillon (Blaen-million) (Farm of 35 Acres), then SE to
21 Pantymillon (Pant-y-meillion) (Farm of 40 acres), then SE
22-29 via various properties not on map housing Ag. Labourers, Shoemakers etc.
30 Van (Fan) where Richard Edmund a Mason lived, then S to
31 Llwynyffynnon (farm of 29 acres)
Then via various properties not on the map, housing Lime Burners, Shoemakers, Ag. Labourers and a Blaksmith’s widow, presumably all resident within the Quarry “complex”, including
38 Plasebach where Ann Owen (nee Treharne, William’s daughter) and her husband and family were living (Farmer of 20 Acres), Then SE to
https://maps.nls.uk/view/102179756
43 Blanevan (Blaen-y-fan) (Farm of 70 Acres), then SE to
46-48 Minke (Meinciau)
In 1851 the enumerator seems to have travelled in the opposite direction
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Hi
Talacharn, I wonder if I can call on your expertise again. I am looking for a Glynhir in “Llangendeirne”. I have found references to one in Llandybie but I think this is too far away. If you don’t mind I was wondering if you can use your map expertise to see if you can find one in the Llangendeirne area.
The reason I ask is that I think William of Plasbach/Van could also have links to Glynhir. This is based that on the fact that in Llangendeirne Parish records, there is a Mary Treharne baptised 03Apr1815 daughter of a William and Jane Treharne, William being a Farmer of Glynhir.
I can only find one marriage of a William Treharne to a Jane, Jane Walter in Carmarthenshire parish records, on 05Dec1797. Therefore, unless anyone has an alternative suggestion (?) the current conclusion is that William Treharne of Plasbach/Van, Lime burner, wife Jane was previously William Treharne a Farmer of Glynhir. Seems strange, but can’t come up with an alternative explanation at present.
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Glyn-hir means long valley or glen. Is that a house or area?
I followed the Gwendraeth valley from the lime kilns down towards Kidwelly as that is the main/longest valley in the area. It is unlikely to me in the hilly areas. Pontyberem and Pontyates are also in valleys, so it could also be around either.
A little south of Fan towards Kidwelly, on the next sheet, there is Coed y Glyn a large wooded area with Glyn Abbey, even a field called Cae Glyn, a mill Felin-y-Glyn and a house called Glyn-fach. I have checked different maps and neighbouring sheets, but as of yet no Glynhir.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/102179936
(https://maps.nls.uk/view/102179936)
I will look again, but for now, feel it is one of the unnamed properties in or near these woods.
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This could be a property/land that was swallowed up for industry before the maps were published, which would explain the change.
Is it Glyn-hir or Clyn-hir? I have found a farm/complex called Clyn-hir.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/102340260 (https://maps.nls.uk/view/102340260)
Bottom left corner and follow the bottom edge along to Pont-Henry. From the word Pont, go up across a small woodland and a couple of fields.
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Thank you for this. There are several references I have come across all spelt Glynhir. Does Clynhir have a meaning? If not, then it could be a mid transcription of Clynhir. William’s son John Treharne lived at Minke (Meinciau) Mawr, which is not far from Clynhir
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clynhir = swallow
clyn-hir = long-haul
clyn hir = a long lake
The other option is that the property was demolished before the maps as industry developed.
The other option is the Glyn woodland south of Fan. But again demolished or not named.
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Glynhir is near Ponthenri (off B4309), there was a large house there, but in the late 1880's, a mine was sunk nearby. I believe this is near the Baltic Inn, Ponthenri.