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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: Jool on Monday 24 February 20 23:02 GMT (UK)
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Could anyone please help with a date for this photo and particularly an age for the girl. Looking at the girl's dress and the lady's collar I would say 1950s - but please correct me if I'm wrong.
The photo is of Frederick William Dodson (1870-1968) and Amory Dorsett (1889-1973). They married in 1950 (second marriage for both), Fred aged 79 and Amory aged 60. I am trying to work out who the girl may be and her age in this photo could help.
Any help much appreciated.
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Hi Jool, yes I think 1950s is a good call. Maybe about 13 going by her undeveloped figure.
Carol
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The girl is, I think, between 14 and 15 years.
The man is wearing his clothes from an earlier time, but the women are in outfits from the 1950's
Sue
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I was thinking older for the girl late teens or 20. Cardigan round the shoulders looks more sophisticated to me than a younger girl would dress.
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Thank you Carol and Sue for confirming the 1950s date. I too thought she looked to be early teens but I couldn't match her to anyone in my tree so I was hoping my age guess was wrong.
Sue, you say Fred is wearing clothes from an earlier time - Fred was a gentlemen's outfitter and ran his own shop before he retired. He is probably still wearing some of his old stock in this photo ;D
Milliepede, I see what you mean about her looking more sophisticated with the cardigan round her shoulders. When I asked my OH how old she looked he said about 20. Again, I cannot match anyone of that age to my tree.
I did initially think the girl may have been Amory's granddaughter through her first marriage as I think they have similar noses. Also Fred must have had contact with her as he left her a legacy in his will. The granddaughter was born in 1951 so I don't think that would fit, the granddaughter's mother was born in 1927 so that wouldn't fit either.
Thanks again for your replies.
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I'm no expert but it might just fit. Checking with my wife, she suggested late 50s/early 60s and the girl to be 14/5, but I thought the girl looks slightly younger, say 12/13, so a date of 1962/3 might just do it. Then again, she could just be the next-door neighbour,
Steve
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Thanks Steve (and your wife :) ) If we can push the fashion for those outfits into the early 60s it may just work for the granddaughter as you say. I had also considered the fact that she may just be a neighbour - why didn't they just write on the back! I suppose it would take some of the fun out of it if is was too easy ;D
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If it was early 1960s, Frederick would be aged 90+, and I'm not really seeing that in him. If it was mid-1950s, Amory's daughter would still be under 30, and I don't think I'd entirely rule that out, but I wonder if it could be her, earlier in the 1950s. Can the younger woman's hairstyle be dated?
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Looks like they are fairly well off assuming it is the adults own property where the photograph was taken.
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If it was early 1960s, Frederick would be aged 90+, and I'm not really seeing that in him. If it was mid-1950s, Amory's daughter would still be under 30, and I don't think I'd entirely rule that out, but I wonder if it could be her, earlier in the 1950s. Can the younger woman's hairstyle be dated?
Yes, I take your point Arthur, Fred doesn't look in his 90's in the photo. It would be Amory's daughter-in-law rather than daughter (if it is her), Amory's son married her in 1950.
I think I will have to have another look through the masses of photos my father-in-law has to find more clues.
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Looks like they are fairly well off assuming it is the adults own property where the photograph was taken.
They weren't short of a bob or two. Fred left £56,000 when he died in 1968, he left £1,000 each to 8 charities!
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Jool , I think she is late teens and no more than 20. I also agree with 1950's. My Aunt had a very similar dress to the one the girl is wearing.
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I did initially think the girl may have been Amory's granddaughter through her first marriage as I think they have similar noses.
I'm not the best on faces, but I had wondered if there was a likeness in the noses. Could Amory have had a daughter or another granddaughter that you haven't yet found?
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Jool , I think she is late teens and no more than 20. I also agree with 1950's. My Aunt had a very similar dress to the one the girl is wearing.
Hi a-l
Thank you for your input, it's seems we are split between early teens and late teens but pretty much in agreement of 1950's.
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I did initially think the girl may have been Amory's granddaughter through her first marriage as I think they have similar noses.
I'm not the best on faces, but I had wondered if there was a likeness in the noses. Could Amory have had a daughter or another granddaughter that you haven't yet found?
Hi Arthur, thank you for your interest.
Following your suggestion, I have rechecked my research and I can find no evidence of a daughter to Amory Dorsett and her first husband Arthur Fowler, just the one son born in 1920.
Her son and his wife had only one child, a daughter born in 1951. The son and his wife have passed away, but I am reluctant to name them here as one was quite recent. I believe Amory and Arthur Fowler's granddaughter is still living.
Maybe someone from the Fowler family will find this post one day and solve the mystery.
By the way, the man in my profile photo, James Dodson, is Frederick's father.
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Looks like they are fairly well off assuming it is the adults own property where the photograph was taken.
They weren't short of a bob or two. Fred left £56,000 when he died in 1968, he left £1,000 each to 8 charities!
As the couple appear to be quite affluence, I wonder if, given their ages, the girl could have been hired help. She looks to be a bit distant, stood at the back. If she were related I would have expected her to be more included and connected to the couple. It's usual for family to show some physical contact in a family group photo, either withhands on shoulders, or seated on the floor in front.
Just me thinking aloud.
Carol
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Looks like they are fairly well off assuming it is the adults own property where the photograph was taken.
They weren't short of a bob or two. Fred left £56,000 when he died in 1968, he left £1,000 each to 8 charities!
As the couple appear to be quite affluence, I wonder if, given their ages, the girl could have been been hired help. She looks to be a bit distant, stood at the back. If she were related I would have expected her to be more included and connected to the couple. It's usual for family to show some physical contact in a family group photo, either withhands on shoulders, or seated on the floor in front.
Just me thinking aloud.
Carol
A very good point Carol, and one I hadn't considered. The girl doesn't look comfortable having the photo taken does she. I will ask Fred's great nephew if he remembers them having "staff".
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The woman and girl have similar noses and face shapes, so I think they are related - possibly grandmother/granddaughter or even Aunt/Niece.
With a casual photo such as this I don’t there there is anything to be taken from the fact that the girl is slightly in the background. :)
Her age is difficult to guess but I think she is in her teens.
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Thank you for your comments Ruskie. I keep being drawn back to those noses, they are very similar.
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Hi there,
I spent the afternoon at my Mother's house today and showed her this picture. Mum was born in 1942 and remembers wearing a very similar spotted dress to that worn by the young girl here. This was made for her by her dressmaker sister sometime between Mum leaving school (1957) and meeting Dad (1959).
Mum was a career hairdresser but is not able to offer much about the hairstyle. We did a bit of googling of 50's hairstyles but couldn't see an exact match. The nearest we could see were pictures of Audrey Hepburn in "Roman Holiday" (1953) and Hayley Mills in "The Parent Trap" (1961).
Between us we would put the girls age at around 15-20.
We agree about those noses being similar. Is much known about Amory's wider family? If the granddaughter has been ruled out maybe there is a niece or great niece that might fit.
Best regards, Tony.
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Hi Tony,
Thank you, and your mum, for your interest and thoughts on the photo.
I know Amory had a brother and 3 sisters (all older) but I haven't investigated them in great detail - there's a job for me at the weekend :D
Amory was from Coalbrookdale in Shropshire and lived with Fred in Wolverhampton after their marriage. Amory's family stayed in the Coalbrookdale area, so I'm not sure how much contact they had with her family. I'm not even sure whose garden the photo was taken in - it may have been on a visit to family in Coalbrookdale. Food for thought, thank you.
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I have emailed Fred's great nephew about the girl in the photo, without telling him who I thought it may be.
When he was about 10 years old (in 1955) he used to go to Fred's house to do the garden for him. He remembers seeing the girl and thinks it is Amory's granddaughter but not completely sure.
???
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The woman and girl have similar noses and face shapes, so I think they are related - possibly grandmother/granddaughter or even Aunt/Niece.
With a casual photo such as this I don’t there there is anything to be taken from the fact that the girl is slightly in the background. :)
Her age is difficult to guess but I think she is in her teens.
I agree with Ruskie about the likeness of the woman and the girl.
I was around then ;D and remember my elder sister wearing a dress like that. I think it would be 1958 +/- 2. I'd think she looks 14-16 ish.
Gadget
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Hi Jool, yes I think 1950s is a good call. Maybe about 13 going by her undeveloped figure.
Carol
I agree with this.
P
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Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread, I think the mystery has been solved.
She has no connection to Amory!
I have just spoken to Fred's great nephew (AKA my father in law) who has been giving some thought to the photo and looking through his huge photo collection.
He has now emailed me about 300 family photos I have never seen before :o. They belonged to his aunt.
Amongst the photos are about a dozen with the same girl in them. He said the girl (name unknown) was a neighbour/family friend of his aunt who moved to Yorkshire. They used to visit family in Wolverhampton regularly and must have brought her with them on a visit.
I will post some of the photos shortly to see if you agree it is the same girl.
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Here are some of the photos, they have been scanned quite small so I hope they come out OK.
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That's her! ;D
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Mystery solved, though it is a shame you don’t know her name.
The family resemblance must be a coincidence, unless there is a more distant family relationship that is unknown.
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I think it is her, looks like you have solved that mystery Jool . Extra photos too, what a bonus !
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Hi Jool, so pleased that you have the answer to who the young girl is. Shame that she is not named but at least you know now, thanks for sharing and giving us the opportunity to find a solution.
Carol
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Thanks for your comments on the mystery girl. Even though it turns out she is not related it would be nice to know who she is.
I will post a few details here in case anyone comes across these photos and recognises her as one of their own family.
The couple who befriended her were Edmund Stell (1905-1983) and Ethel Stell nee Dodson (1905-1989) who lived in the Shipley/Bradford area. They had no children of their own so may have become "honorary aunt and uncle" to this girl. They had connections to St. Paul's Church in Shipley, they married and were buried there. Edmund was a sidesman and Ethel was a Sunday school teacher there. Maybe that's where they got to know the girl and her family.
Anyway, the photos are out there now so I hope her family find her :)
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So the ones who went to Yorkshire were relatives of Frederick, not Amory.
But I'm still puzzled about the apparent likeness. And it seems a bit odd that a couple would take an unrelated child halfway across the country to visit people she didn't know.
I see from the 1901 and 1911 censuses that Amory had one brother and 4 sisters (plus another sibling who died). I wonder whether by coincidence any of them could have ended up in or near Shipley, so the girl was Amory's niece or great niece?
Added:
In the Mystery Girl 2 photo above, who are the two women? I see one of them has her arm round the girl. Significant?
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I was thinking along the same lines as you Arthur, and wondered if the girl was a relative though the relationship just wasn't known by Jool's father in law. :-\ It could be worth looking at any children of Amory's siblings who were born within the estimated time frame.
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I wonder if there are any obituaries/funeral reports of Frederick and Amory's deaths/burials that might mentions lists of mourners that could include her.
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Thank you Arthur, Ruskie and Gadget for your continued interest in the mystery girl. I will try to respond to all of your suggestions and questions in one post.
The ones who lived in Yorkshire were Fred's niece Ethel Stell nee Dodson and her husband Edmund.
Both Ethel and Edmund are in the 4 photos I posted of the mystery girl at the seaside, also in several other photos I have been sent which appear to be taken at the same time. Ethel and Edmund are the older couple in photo no. 1 which appears to be in another garden, Ethel is wearing the same spotty dress she is wearing on the beach, so possibly the same day. I also think it looks like Ethel with her arm around the girl in photo 2.
So mystery girl was with Fred and Amory in Fred's Wolverhampton garden, and also at an unidentified seaside location with Fred's niece Ethel, her husband, other younger unknown adults and another child (boy or girl?).
I am beginning to think the nose similarity to Amory may be just coincidence. I can't find any link to Yorkshire for Amory's family as yet.
There is nothing to prove my F.I.L' s suggestion that she was a friend from Yorkshire, and after reading comments here I am now looking for other possibilities.
I have looked in the newspapers for obituaries/funeral reports for Fred and Amory but only found notices of the value of their respective estates when they died.
I have a few more ideas which I am following up. Does anyone recognise that beach? (I know the scans are not great, I am waiting for F.I.L to dig out the originals for me - could take some time ::))
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It might be wishful thinking, but is there any resemblance between the mystery girl and James Dodson (your avatar)?
I've blown up picture 3 as much as I can, and I think the other child is a girl - based partly on the cardigan. I don't recognise the beach, but it would be good if you could get a larger scan - we often do quite well on coastal scenes. For now, because of the angle of the sun, I think it might be on the east coast.
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I'm not sure if I see a resemblance between the girl and James. James was Fred's father and Ethel's grandfather.
East coast! I will google some beaches. I have seen scans of Ethel's postcards from Scarborough and Bridlington. I was hoping for South Wales though to support one of the theories I am working on ;D
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Depends on the time of day - a south-facing coast later in the day would have similar shadows to east coast earlier on.
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Depends on the time of day - a south-facing coast later in the day would have similar shadows to east coast earlier on.
Thanks Arthur, I will do a bit of beach searching later.
Here's another similar photo taken on the beach - this one makes me think the other child is a boy :-[
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I think it's a boy too Jool, the buttons look to be fastened the boy's way.
Carol
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I think it's a boy too Jool, the buttons look to be fastened the boy's way.
Carol
Thanks Carol, I hadn't noticed the buttons, it was "the difference between boys and girls" I noticed :-X :-[
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Then again it could be little sister wearing big sister's outgrown cardigan ::) ;D
Carol
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Your South Wales theory could be spot on - have a look at these pictures of Barry Island (I was concentrating on the large building):
https://home.bt.com/lifestyle/travel/uk/7-places-on-barry-island-that-gavin-and-stacey-fans-need-to-visit-11364081313957
https://www.fotolibra.com/gallery/1162788/barry-island-beach-south-wales/
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/barry-island-beach.html
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Your South Wales theory could be spot on - have a look at these pictures of Barry Island (I was concentrating on the large building):
https://home.bt.com/lifestyle/travel/uk/7-places-on-barry-island-that-gavin-and-stacey-fans-need-to-visit-11364081313957
https://www.fotolibra.com/gallery/1162788/barry-island-beach-south-wales/
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/barry-island-beach.html
Looks like a match! Well found Arthur! ;D
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King Arthur rides again!!! ;D ;D ;D Good find Arthur 8)
Carol
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Your South Wales theory could be spot on - have a look at these pictures of Barry Island (I was concentrating on the large building):
https://home.bt.com/lifestyle/travel/uk/7-places-on-barry-island-that-gavin-and-stacey-fans-need-to-visit-11364081313957
https://www.fotolibra.com/gallery/1162788/barry-island-beach-south-wales/
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/barry-island-beach.html
Arthur, you are an absolute star! Not only have you found the location of the beach, it is in South Wales too - exactly where I hoped it would be!
I will now concentrate on the branch of the Dodson family who lived in Cardiff and Llanelli. There is a girl in that branch born in 1945 which could fit with the girl in the photos. She is Fred's great niece and Ethel's niece.
Thanks again Arthur for your help ;D