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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: wiltshire21 on Sunday 23 February 20 09:37 GMT (UK)
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My 2 x great grandmother was born on 12/04/1881 in St Saviours London. I think her mother was also called Harriett and her father John Carroll but I can not verify this. I know she married a Arthur Albert Savage in Sussex on 17/02/1909 and in 1939 they were still together and living in Newhaven Sussex. She died on 30/10/1944 in Newhaven. I have been unable to trace any records for her between the period of her birth until 1900. On the 1911 census she is married to Arthur but has four children from a previous relationship - these children are Rose born 1900 Dorking Surrey and Lilly George and Mary all born in Battle Sussex in 1902 1905 and 1907 respectively. On the birth registrations some are listed as Carroll's and some as Mitchell. Mitchell is the name given for all of them on the census. I can find no record of her marrying a Mitchell or any record for her in the 1901 census. In the family it was said that she was from a "gypsy" family and her son George according to gypsy tradition as the eldest son took the mother's maiden name. I would be grateful for any help in relation to gypsy records or specifically for Harriett.
Thanks
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There is a birth registration for Harriet Mary Anne Carroll, St Saviours 1877.
Mother is Mary Anne Downes. Father John Carroll.
How certain are you about her year of birth?
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1891 - St Paul Deptford
John Carroll 30 Gen Lab born Peckham
Harriet Carroll 32 Wife born St Pancras
Harriet Carroll 9 Born St Pancras
Colin
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I got the birth date from the 1939 register- I am not 100% certain about anything Harriett put on official forms, she seems to use multiple names, Carroll, Mitchell Savage and possibly Farmer !
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The 1909 marriage to Arthur notes Harriet as Hanns?
Colin
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Birth Reg GRO;
CARROLL, LILY -
GRO Reference: 1902 D Quarter in BATTLE Volume 02B Page 45
CARROLL, GEORGE HERBERT -
GRO Reference: 1905 M Quarter in BATTLE Volume 02B Page 50
No Mothers maiden name so illeg.
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"..some are listed as Carroll's and some as Mitchell."
Can you be specific please....how is each birth registered.
"... Carroll, Mitchell Savage and possibly Farmer" Where do you see FARMER?
Census 1911 at 2 Old School Cottage Denton Sussex
SAVAGE Arthur 30y b. West Ham Essex
SAVAGE Harriet 29y b. St Pancras
SAVAGE Harriet 1y b. Brighton
MITCHELL Rose 11y b. Dorking Surrey
MITCHELL Lillie 9y b. Battle Sussex
MITCHELL Bert 6y b. Battle Sussex
MITCHELL Mary 4y b. Newhaven Sussex
GRO birth
SAVAGE, Harriett Hilda mms FARMER
1910 JQ Brighton Vol 02B Page 178
Ancestry Register of births in the Workhouse St Pancras
13 Apr 1881 FARMER female illegitimate mother Harriett
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CARROLL, ROSE -
GRO Reference: 1901 D Quarter in TICEHURST Volume 02B Page 109
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I know she married a Arthur Albert Savage in Sussex on 17/02/1909 and in 1939 they were still together and living in Newhaven Sussex. She died on 30/10/1944 in Newhaven.
Perhaps you can transcribe the marriage cert for us?
Debra :)
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so far she has used the name Farmer, Carroll, Mitchell and Hanns before Savage , this highlights my problem ! Also why would she say Rose is born in Dorking when it appears she was born in Sussex as were her siblings
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Rose's birth is registered in Ticehurst Registration District, which spans parishes in Kent and Sussex?
See Trish's earlier reply.
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Rose's birth is registered in Ticehurst, Berkshire?
See Trish's earlier reply.
Is that the right Rose? Is her mother Harriet?
You have now changed the registration county - that’s better :)
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There is a marriage
December 1899 Dorking 2a 343
Charles Carroll and Harriet Farmer are on the same page :-\
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Marriage
Charles Carroll 26 yrs labourer Church St Dorking father, Thomas Carroll, cowman
Harriet Farmer 20 yrs, Horsham Road, Dorking father John Farmer (deceased) Labourer
Witnesses Charlotte Webster and William James
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John Farmer a labourer (Age 44) married Harriet Hearnden (widow age 40) on 24 Oct 1880 at St. Paul, Deptford, lewisham.
His father Thomas Farmer.
Her father William Green.
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I had thought she might be here - Harriet’s mother maybe?
1861 115/59/59
George Farmer 46 yrs
Hannah Farmer 45 yrs
Harriett Farmer 4 yrs b Pancras
Elizabeth Farmer 1 yr
This is just a thought though. We don’t know if Harriet was Farmer at birth or not.
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My gut instinct here is that Harriett was indeed born Farmer - this maiden name given for daughter Harriett Hilda born in Brighton 1910.
She states in 1911 (as already stated) that she was born in St. Pancras and in 1939 as born 12/4/1881. The birth shown as 13/4/1881 St. Pancras Workhouse (posted by wivenhoe), illegitimate daughter of Harriett Farmer sure sounds good to me.
I suspect the 1891 family in Deptford is probably Harriett, young Harriett and now supposedly married to a John Carroll. Cannot find a marriage between John Carroll and Harriett, nor find them together after 1891. Suspect they were never married at all which can explain why Harriett would be confused between Farmer and Carroll as being her true surname. Her earlier children could have been fathered by a 'Mr. Mitchell' - the bit that throws me is her marrying Arthur Savage with the surname 'Hanns'??
Can you please, as has been asked already, give us all the details that are on the 1909 marriage certificate?
Annette
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Harriet Farmer has her birth registered 1881 St Pancras.
No mothers name listed.
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Unfortunately I dont have the 1909 marriage certificate yet. If her mother married ( or lived with) a Mr Carroll after her birth at the St Pancras workhouse then it is unlikely that she is the Harriett Farmer who married a Charles Carroll in Dorking in 1899 even though her daughter Rose was supposed to have been born there in 1900. I have no idea where the Hanns name comes from - it is all very confusing and the next generation is no better. Harriet's daughter Lilly married my great grandfather who was born John Stanley Wood but gives his name as Robert John Stanley Burns on his marriage certificate. He was also in and out of the workhouse during his early life but i can find no record of him between 1916 to his marriage in 1923
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Unfortunately I dont have the 1909 marriage certificate yet.
It would be interesting to see re names etc.
If her mother married ( or lived with) a Mr Carroll after her birth at the St Pancras workhouse then it is unlikely that she is the Harriett Farmer who married a Charles Carroll in Dorking in 1899 even though her daughter Rose was supposed to have been born there in 1900.
If this is young Harriet - she was born Farmer and she might have decided to use that name. Rose’s birth certificate, if that is her b Tendring might help.
I have no idea where the Hanns name comes from
The marriage certificate might show Hanns with an alias/former name but might not help at all. :-\
It is really difficult as these Carroll men appear and then disappear and whilst various certificates may provide some insight, they also are expensive. Unfortunately records of baptisms do not seem to be online for those places.
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Religious creed register for Pancras (two images)
Harriet Farmer, 24, admitted 12 April 1881
Birth of daughter noted next day
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3N2-L9BG-2?i=752&cat=1370340
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This may not apply nor be significant.
In the 1899 Charles Carroll/Harriet Farmer marriage, the celebrant was the chaplain to Dorking Workhouse. I have looked a few pages back and forth and this is the only one.
Both parties have given addresses - Charles, Church St, Dorking and Harriet, Horsham Road.
With regard to John Carroll and Harriet Farmer, there is a newspaper snippet.
May 1890 Kentish Mercury
John Edward Carrol accused of assaulting Harriet Farmer of Mill Lane.
I don’t have further access.
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The Dorking marriage looks good.
Sussex Agricultural Express, 9 May 1908
ADJOURNED.
Herbert Mitchell, of Catsfield, was summoned by Harriett Farmer, of 3. Lewes-cottages, Denton, to show cause, etc. The case was in respect of two children. Prosecutrix said she was married to a young man who married her under a false name. The wedding took place at Dorking, about 7 or 8 years ago. She and the defendant had been living together from 7th September, 1903, until the 21st April 1908.— The case was adjourned for a fortnight for further evidence.
More from that newspaper to come perhaps.
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Just after the 1911 census!
Sussex Agricultural Express, 2 June 1911
Denton Neighbours Quarrel.—Mrs. Annie Ainger, of Denton, was summoned by Mrs. Harriett Savage, of Denton, for assault on the 22nd May.— Complainant stated that she resided at 12, School-cottages, Denton, and her husband was a farm labourer. The defendant lived next door to her, and on the 22nd May she went to defendant’s house to ask her to stop her child from ill-treating witness’s child. Defendant’s husband came to the door, and immediately the defendant herself came downstairs with a piece of iron bedstead in her hand, with which she hit witness on the neck. Defendant also picked up two flint stones to throw at her, but her husband took them away from her. Witness did not strike the defendant. The witness remarked "That these people are foreigners; they have only been in the village a few months and have had disturbances with three other people." Complainant denied having threatened defendant’s child.—Arthur Savage, husband of complainant, gave corroborative evidence. Defendant stated Mrs. Savage pushed by her (defendant’s) husband and slapped her round the cheek. Sarcastic remarks were made about her trying to get subscriptions to assist her to get back to India, the Government requiring £1 per head for sustenance while on board ship. She did not strike complainant as her husband kept her back. —Henry Ainger, husband, and John Andrews also gave evidence for the defendant. —The Bench dismissed the case and ordered each party to pay their own costs, 3s. each.
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That’s a great find and thank you Jon.
It looks as though Charles Carroll was the man using a false name.
So both mother and daughter were known as Harriet Carroll at some point. I think that would be right.
(You have added more useful information action since I began my post) :)
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Wonder what Charles' real name was? Unless it was Hanns! But, yes, very well done, you were spot on with that Dorking marriage!
I've got a wild idea coming up, the notion coming after checking out that second newspaper report, from 1911. It may be horribly wrong though.
John
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This looks like Herbert in 1911, living with his Ransom grandparents in Catsfield parish.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7BJ-BZT
There is this baptism
Herbert Mitchell 29th January 1884
Birth: 2nd October 1883
Mother: Alice
Crowhurst, Sussex
Edmond and Mary Ransom are at 1871 1037/48/3
With daughter Alice, 6yrs.
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Looks like you have identified Herbert! Crowhurst is interesting as I've found a lady there who might be connected :-\ Really don't know.
The number 12 given in the newspaper for (Old) School Cottage may not be correct, but, anyway here is a reminder of Harriett Savage and family in Denton in the free index to 1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7BR-VNB
On one side of the Savages are the Aingers, Mrs. Ainger being Freda here and she and the children were born in India
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7BR-VNP
Had a peek the other side (a bit naughty, sorry)
The other neighbours are John and Harriett Andrews.
Here's Harriett in the free index, age 50, a few years older than her husband. Harriett born London Cambdon Town
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7BR-VJ7
That sounds like Camden Town, Pancras way. Is there any chance that Harriett Andrews is Harriett Savage's mother? :-[
Though John Andrews (if it was the same chap) gave evidence for Mrs.Ainger.
Henry Ainger, husband, and John Andrews also gave evidence for the defendant.
1901, they may be in Crowhurst, Sussex, in Battle registration district.
Harriet Andrews, 40, born London Camden Town. Husband John is 35. They have a 13 year old adopted son with them.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSNR-HWK
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1891 - St Paul Deptford
John Carroll 30 Gen Lab born Peckham
Harriet Carroll 32 Wife born St Pancras
Harriet Carroll 9 Born St Pancras
Have John + Harriet Carroll been found together subsequently?
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No, as far as I know.
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There's a death of a Harriett Farmer, March 1932, Newhaven, age 75.
Age would be good for the Pancras one, and if she hadn't actually married anyone...
But anyway, I think it's less important at the moment than the stuff that has come up for Harriett born 1881. Which looks good.
John
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It all looks good,Jon, well done.
The certificates might help untangle the various folk.
I don’t think that Burt Gearing has any connection at the moment - looks to be Albert who is an inmate in 1891 but seems to have parents not connected by any of the Carroll etc names.
Have we got young Harriet in 1901?
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Have we got young Harriet in 1901?
No, I don't think we have. It's one piece of the jigsaw that is still missing.
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Throw in a school record
Frankham Street School
Harriett Caroll, admitted 6.2.90
born 12.4.81
parent/guardian John Carroll
address Mill Lane
previous school None
With regard to John Carroll and Harriet Farmer, there is a newspaper snippet.
May 1890 Kentish Mercury
John Edward Carrol accused of assaulting Harriet Farmer of Mill Lane.
Not much more in the report, 16 May
Greenwich Police Court
Yesterday
John Edward Carrol, 33, dealer, of Mill-lane, assaulting Harriet Farmer, at Mill-lane, on the 13th inst.—lt appeared the prisoner came home and kicked Farmer, who was taken to an hospital.—Fourteen days hard labour.
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Her birthdate confirms that she is the right one :)
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Thank you for all the information it has been very useful. As I understand it my ancestor Harriet married a Charles Carroll in Dorking in 1899 but this wasn't his real name - could this have been Herbert Mitchell ? I know she married Arthur Savage in 1909, would the 1st marriage be annulled if the husband married under an assumed name ?
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Thank you for all the information it has been very useful. As I understand it my ancestor Harriet married a Charles Carroll in Dorking in 1899 but this wasn't his real name - could this have been Herbert Mitchell ? I know she married Arthur Savage in 1909, would the 1st marriage be annulled if the husband married under an assumed name ?
I think judging by the newspaper snippet posted above that Herbert Mitchell comes after the young man who married her under a false name
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I agree re order of the men- Herbert came after so is presumably the father of the later children.
Jon mentioned before was Charles Carroll perhaps Mr Hanns?
The birth certificates (re fathers’ names) and the two marriage certificates would be good but particularly the one to Arthur. Certificates usually give the name the bride is marrying under and then ‘formerly’ which is usually the birth name.
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Harriet may well have adopted yet another surname in which to marry A A Savage, 1909, which she just may have done at St Leonard's Church, Denton/South Heighton, Newhaven.
It's only a theory of mine - and I've considered this for a while now - the HANNS could well be a mis-trainscripton (barring the marriage certficate coming available) could be the surname HARRIS.