RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Tipperary => Topic started by: Karytay on Monday 10 February 20 14:59 GMT (UK)
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I am finding it hard to find Irish information. I have looked on family search and the links given above with out finding anything.
Is there any were else I can look which is free to view? besides FindmyPast.
I am looking for Ellen McGrath born abt. 1872 in Clonmel to parents Lawrence McGrath and Ellen Shea.Ellen died in 1902 Kilmolash Clonmel.
Her Husband was William Desmond Murphy b. 5 Oct 1860 Clonmel, his father was Edmund/Edmond Fitzgerald Murphy.
I can not find them on census or birth or marriage. William Desmond Murphy came to South Africa after his wife died. Do not know when.
Any help were I can look for these people, please and thanks.
ps. they could of beloned to the Irish church or the RC. Also I am trying to find the older ancestors of these people.
Thanks.
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Her Husband was William Desmond Murphy b. 5 Oct 1860 Clonmel,
How do you know that was her husband without any census or marriage info? I mean where has the information come from.
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This may or may not be the same family but a family tree has
William Desmond father Edmond with a spouse Elizabeth.
By 1910 in SA and death in SA 1954. There are similarities with your story there.
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You have the Irish Govt Website https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp for Civil Reg
You have to solve security Captcha and can use initials to sign in, safe site , Free Certs.
LINK http://www.rootschat.com/links/01p11/ will get you all Civil Reg Birth, Marriage and Death results for mcgrath of Clonmel
You can then use filter for Marriages or whatever and by Decade.
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https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/civil-records/help/what-civil-records-are-on-line explains Years etc...
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You get the Cert for
Marriage of WILLIAM MURPHY and ELLEN MAGRATH on 29 July 1900 (attached) from above Link.
R.C.
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R.C registers are Free
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/1102 St. Mary's, Clonmel where she Married!
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I clicked on Births, then the 1800 folder to get Decades, then 1870's to get
Birth results for mcgrath of Clonmel 1870s where you can look for Birth and also any siblings..
LINK http://www.rootschat.com/links/01p12/
which gets her Parents... then one can look for the parents Marriage
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A Search like this should find Death Reg on https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
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Her Husband was William Desmond Murphy b. 5 Oct 1860 Clonmel,
How do you know that was her husband without any census or marriage info? I mean where has the information come from.
Milliepede I got her husbands name from family and her South African death notice that was filled in by her husband. For some reason there was a controversy about her death William wrote a letter of oath confirming that Ellen died in Ireland.
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This may or may not be the same family but a family tree has
William Desmond father Edmond with a spouse Elizabeth.
By 1910 in SA and death in SA 1954. There are similarities with your story there.
[/quote
Milliepede did you find the death info,on NARS, because I did not see it there?
Did he did in the Transvaal or Free State?
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Thanks so much for the links Hallmark. This will help me a lot for there are a lot of family members to find.
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Thanks so much for the links Hallmark. This will help me a lot for there are a lot of family members to find.
You are welcome.
Moving around through decades or whatever is easy enough when one finds their way around...
Some Deaths have Returns Page No and do not have Images of Certs at moment so one needs to use Link every few months to look for updated ones.
Good hunting!
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Looking at the witnesses to the marriage - Michael McGrath and Nan.. McGrath, this looks like that family in 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Ballyclerahan/Kilmolash_Lower/818883/
Note the child Mary Ellen Murphy 10yrs b Dublin
This is the family in 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Ballyclerahan/Kilmolash_Lower/1712587/
The mother here is Kate but you have Ellen’s mother as Ellen :-\
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There are so many McGraths - this might help - might be Nano from the censuses. I can’t see a civil birth yet.
Number 88
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632166#page/132/mode/1up
Baptism of Honora McGrath 24th July 1876 parents Laurence and Catherine Culinane
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It looks as though that Laurence McGrath was married twice.
Here is his marriage to Catherine Cullinane
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1874/11240/8121706.pdf
Number 6 here is Ellen McGrath with parents Laurence and Margaret Roache
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632166#page/5/mode/1up
So you have Laurence and Kilmolash but otherwise the information is different.
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Hallmark -Mary Ellen was Ellen's daughter. her names appears on Ellen's death notice. Maybe the mother had two names ? Or I might have made a mistake. Have to go back and check.
Thanks heywood, I will have to go back to the family and check on this. I to cannot find a mother with the name Ellen Shea. Surly the husband would know the wife's mother's name
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That death certificate has a child Mary Ellen which would match the child in 1911 census I gave you earlier.
That would seem therefore that the censuses are the correct family.
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It looks that way.
Thanks for the info heywood.
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I can’t see a birth or 1901 entry for the child Mary Ellen.
Do you know what happened to the young Mary Ellen?
Added - neither can I see a death for Ellen :-\
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Have no idea. Looked as well, saw nothing. I am now thinking Mary Ellen might not be a Murphy. I cannot seam to find a birth for Ellen either.
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She married 1900 and child born 1899 ??
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She married 1900 and child born 1899 ??
Presumably that is why Karytay thinks she might not be a Murphy.
I haven’t found a McGrath birth either.
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I am looking for Ellen McGrath born abt. 1872 in Clonmel to parents Lawrence McGrath and Ellen Shea.Ellen died in 1902 Kilmolash Clonmel.
Her Husband was William Desmond Murphy b. 5 Oct 1860 Clonmel, his father was Edmund/Edmond Fitzgerald Murphy.
It does look as though Ellen’s information is correct in parts - the father’s name and Townland looks right.
William did not use the name Desmond on his marriage.
What evidence is there for his birthplace as Clonmel?
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Mary Ellen Murphy’s marriage to James Murphy. Her father, William, a soldier.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1922/09212/5332435.pdf
She is described as a ‘farmer’s daughter’ also - presumably being raised by her mother’s family.
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She married 1900 and child born 1899 ??
Presumably that is why Karytay thinks she might not be a Murphy.
I haven’t found a McGrath birth either.
Plus he was a Soldier and he/she/they could have been anywhere in 1899...
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Murphy Mary Ellen
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Westmeath/Athlone_Urban__W_/Ranelagh/1773913/
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Murphy Mary Ellen
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Westmeath/Athlone_Urban__W_/Ranelagh/1773913/
I have such faith in you ;)
And it gives info about William :)
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Posted to back up your excellent research in Reply#12
;D
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True ;)
I had looked through the census, I thought, but missed that one.
So, now we have William Murphy Col. Sgt , Royal Irish Reserves b Tipperary
As Mary Ellen seems the only child to the couple, presumably Karytay is searching for William’s background.
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A possibility
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632714#page/38/mode/1up
William Murphy baptised 11th September 1862 - parents Edmond Murphy and Margaret Sweeney?
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True ;)
I had looked through the census, I thought, but missed that one.
So, now we have William Murphy Col. Sgt , Royal Irish Reserves b Tipperary
As Mary Ellen seems the only child to the couple, presumably Karytay is searching for William’s background.
also Mary Ellen 6 months old, born Dublin.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001249984/
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also Mary Ellen 6 months old, born Dublin.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001249984/
How about this one? Born ? October 1900. #449
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1900/01976/1761310.pdf
KG
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;D
Just about to post it
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Yes of course and that hopefully confirms 1911 where Mary Ellen is with her McGrath family in Kilmolash.
Added
Great find re birth :)
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Just goes to show there is a difference between McGrath and Mc Grath when searching!
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Yes of course and that hopefully confirms 1911 where Mary Ellen is with her McGrath family in Kilmolash.
Added
Great find re birth :)
Maybe her death is under Mc Grath onstead of McGrath.... don't have time to look now.
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She would/should be Murphy though
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She would/should be Murphy though
Should be....BUT she has baby 3 months after Marriage, he's in Curragh, on Census shortly after she's in Athlone with baby, she is on African Cert as dying "at home" shortly after
Thinking "outside the box"....could he have been written off and a McGrath/Mc Grath registered her death as a McGrath/Mc Grath?
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I have looked but can’t see anything - could well be there though.
I have looked Clonmel, Athlone and Athy but who knows.
It may not be straightforward
Her Husband was William Desmond Murphy b. 5 Oct 1860 Clonmel,
How do you know that was her husband without any census or marriage info? I mean where has the information come from.
Milliepede I got her husbands name from family and her South African death notice that was filled in by her husband. For some reason there was a controversy about her death William wrote a letter of oath confirming that Ellen died in Ireland.
On that death notice, William is quite precise with the death date and place
21st December 1902
At Farm, Kilmolash, Clonmel
Age 30 yrs and 4 months
If this is correct, the death would likely be registered in 1903. Maybe it was not registered :-\
I wonder if he had to complete the oath for a new marriage?
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Maybe there would be a military record somewhere for William :-\
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I agree BUT very precise on Birth of daughter too... ;D
I did this search and just looked at any of correct Death age.
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A possibility
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632714#page/38/mode/1up
William Murphy baptised 11th September 1862 - parents Edmond Murphy and Margaret Sweeney?
Heywood I think you have found William I have just heard that his mother was Margaret but the family could not tell me her surname. What I do not understand is why does he call himself William Desmond Murphy
Yes to the new marriage of William, that is possible why he wrote an oath. He married for the second time in 1911 in the Orange Free State SA.
About being a soldier he could of being waiting to be called up to fight in the Anglo Boer War. But ended up going to South Africa after the war in 1910.
Thanks Hallmark for the census
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The census shows him in Royal Irish Reserves.
This might be informative
https://www.nickmetcalfe.co.uk/the-royal-reserve-regiments-and-the-royal-garrison-regiment/
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Thanks
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Fold3 is a subscription site https://www.fold3.com/choose-a-plan but there is this record shown
William Murphy , 18 yrs b abt 1860
Birth place: Frethard, Jipperary (transcribed as such)
Enlistment year 1878
Regiment: 69bde
Regimental Number: 69bde/2077
Attestation Paper: Yes
According to another Rootschat thread about a different soldier
Infantry Brigade Depots lasted from 1873 to the reforms of 1881. Pairs of single battalion regiments (26th Foot and above) were formed into Brigade Depots. The 1st to 25th Regiments already had two battalions so their Depot consisted of these.
The 69th Brigade Depot was based in Clonmel (Tipperary) and comprised the two battalions of the 18th (Royal Irish) Regiment.
Ken
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=713851.0
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Thanks for info Heywood,and using your subscription at 3Fold to get info. Have to hear what the family says about all this information.
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I don’t have a subscription so can only see what has been indexed because of another linked site.
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Thanks for info Heywood,and using your subscription at 3Fold to get info. Have to hear what the family says about all this information.
I hope they agree with what is found.
It is the death of Ellen which is the difficulty- not being able to find it when William provides such detail.
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The family seams to agree with your findings about William's baptism in 1862 and the names of his parents. His great grand son says if the census agrees with the birth then it must be right.
The next thing will be to find the parents births, marriage and death.
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Possible/likely Marriage - where the blot is
29th November 1858
Edmond Murphy and Margt
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632713#page/36/mode/1up
Margaret’s surname is transcribed as ‘Lunny’ on Ancestry. I think it looks to begin with ‘S’.
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thanks
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Here is Form H in 1901 for the Barrack at Athlone.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Westmeath/Athlone_Urban__W_/Ranelagh/1773942/
If you scroll down you can see the last name is W Murphy. Under that you can see Barrack Return (Form H) - page 6 is the last page. The name looks like ‘Murthy’ but all rest fits - C Sergt RIRR b Tipperary.
For ‘Occupation’, I think it might read ‘unemployed’ but it has been transcribed as ‘Employer’ on the census page for ‘show all information’. It is difficult to decide.
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Thanks so much heywood, the info does fit. so we have that he was at the army base during the taking of the census.
You have helped so much appreciate it.
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Heywood is there any Irish records pertaining to the Police ?
I see on William Murphy and Ellen McGrath marriage record that Williams father Edmond Murphy was a policeman
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I make the names on the marriage out as Edmond Murphy and Margaret Sweeney
William born 11th Sep 1862
left hand page
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632714#page/38/mode/1up
Edmond jnr 1871 at Pike St
58
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1871/03296/2207922.pdf
Martin 1865
65
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03572/2316465.pdf
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Heywood is there any Irish records pertaining to the Police ?
I see on William Murphy and Ellen McGrath marriage record that Williams father Edmond Murphy was a policeman
Have a look at the index ‘Royal Irish Constabulary Service Records 1816-1922’, available on Ancestry and FindMyPast.
Also, this site is useful.
https://irishconstabulary.com/
KG
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dathai, thanks for clarifying Margaret's surname. and for the other to sons births. Apparently there was a son by the name of John as well born about 1856, I tried the archive but get no results. So I must be doing some thing wrong. I see what for I fill in the info the search form asks ?
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thanks Kiltaglassan I will do that
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https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/civil-records/help/what-civil-records-are-on-line explains Years etc for Civil Reg.
You might find Marriages for Siblings 1880 or 1890's.
or Deaths of children 1864+
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Forgot to say....if you are checking records one can Right click on names and 'Open in New Tab' 4 or 5 at a time, much quicker!
Few interesting ones there but wouldn't have time to check them all.
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thanks hallmark for advise
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I make the names on the marriage out as Edmond Murphy and Margaret Sweeney
William born 11th Sep 1862
left hand page
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632714#page/38/mode/1up
Edmond jnr 1871 at Pike St
58
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1871/03296/2207922.pdf
Martin 1865
65
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03572/2316465.pdf
Another birth
Andrew Murphy 1867 - looks as though error made in reporting as a birth for Patrick is crossed out.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1867/03464/2272135.pdf
The difficulty is that there are so many Edmond Murphys. We know that these and William have parents Edmond/Margaret Sweeney.
It is recognised that sometimes errors/lies are given on records.
Is it the right William?
Here is an 1897 marriage for an Andrew with father Edmond (dead)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1897/10449/5805109.pdf
Andrew b Tipperary in censuses
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Cork_Urban_No__5/Railway_Place/1115785/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Cork_No__4_Urban__part_of_/Washbrew_Lane/391443/
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It must be the right William, have not found a William born in 1860 so the closest is the one born in 1862
Just learned he got married a third time, went back to Ireland and married Clanden Frances (Murphy)
then came back to South Africa were they had a daughter Clanden Frances Murphy who married in South Africa to a van Vuuren.
William died 9 Oct 1954 in Lichtenburg, Transvaal South Africa. Finial found his death notice. Unfortunatly there are no parent names and birth just Ireland. it says he was 94 and 4 days when he died. Which works out to 5 Oct 1860
I was told that he had severely brothers, and William ran away from home joined the army in 1878
It looks like Edmond Murphy died before 1900, His wife seams to be remarried at the time of Williams marriage to Ellen McGrath. Mother is now Margaret Cochran
Ellen McGrath's parents Laurance McGrath and Margaret Roache
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Just learned he got married a third time, went back to Ireland and married Clanden Frances (Murphy)
It looks like Edmond Murphy died before 1900, His wife seams to be remarried at the time of Williams marriage to Ellen McGrath. Mother is now Margaret Cochran
Do you have any evidence for the above?
I have never heard of the name Clanden. Do you mean that she was Murphy or became Murphy after marriage.
I can’t see a Cochran marriage - I have looked for Cochrane/Corcoran too. How do you know this?
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Ellen McGrath's parents Laurance McGrath and Margaret Roache
Probably a sister to Alice!
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I thought Ellen’s family had been sorted and acknowledged but this latest goes against what we have found.
I don’t understand the new information re the Murphy family.
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I thought Ellen’s family had been sorted and acknowledged but this latest goes against what we have found.
I don’t understand the new information re the Murphy family.
Very vague!
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Reply #14
I posted re McGrath/Roache
I had forgotten ::) :D
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Civil Reg Marriage results for William Murphy from 1911 to ?
LINK http://www.rootschat.com/links/01p23/
If you know when 2nd wife died you can change search criteria to that year and search.
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C Reg Birth, Marriage and Death results for Murphy of Clonmel
LINK http://www.rootschat.com/links/01p24/
again just click Deaths and then 1800 folder to get decades, then look for Edmond's death for example in relevant decade.
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Check out these post's, https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=728248.9
this info was posted
Parish / District: CLONMEL County: Co. Tipperary
Husband Wife
Name: William Murphy Ellen McGrath
Address: Unknown Clonmel
Denomination: Civil Parish Civil Parish
Occupation: SOLDIER BARMAID
Age: Full Age (Over 21) Full Age (Over 21)
Status: Spinster (Previously unmarried)
Husband's Father Wife's Father
Name: Edmond Murphy Laurence McGrath
Occupation: PUBLICAN
Witness 1 Witness 2
Name: Michael McGrath Nanno McGrath
Address:
Notes:
PRIEST;W MEAGHAER CC
HUSBANDS FATHER DEAD. WIFES FATHER DEAD.
annclare
And the church marriage gives William's mother's name
9-Jul-1900
Parish / District: St Mary's Parish County: Co. Waterford
Husband Wife
Name: William Murphy Ellen McGrath
Address: Kildare Irishtown
Denomination: Roman Catholic Roman Catholic
Husband's Father Wife's Father
Name: Edward Laurence
Husband's Mother Wife's Mother
Name: Margaret Cochran Margaret Roache:
Witness 1 Witness 2
Name: Michael McGrath Honor McGrath
Notes:
Officiator: MEAGHER G. Place: ST MARY'S CLONMEL. Comment:
*DECEASED**KILMOLASH.DISPENSATION FROM BANNS
From the first lot of info it says both William and Ellen 's fathers are dead. In the second lot of info it has Williams mother as Margaret Cochran
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Murphy deaths by decade
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Reply #14
I posted re McGrath/Roache
I had forgotten ::) :D
Forgotten what? ;D
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Check out these post's, https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=728248.9
this info was posted
And the church marriage gives William's mother's name
9-Jul-1900
Parish / District: St Mary's Parish County: Co. Waterford
Husband Wife
Name: William Murphy Ellen McGrath
Address: Kildare Irishtown
Denomination: Roman Catholic Roman Catholic
Husband's Father Wife's Father
Name: Edward Laurence
Husband's Mother Wife's Mother
Name: Margaret Cochran Margaret Roache:
Witness 1 Witness 2
Name: Michael McGrath Honor McGrath
Notes:
Officiator: MEAGHER G. Place: ST MARY'S CLONMEL. Comment:
*DECEASED**KILMOLASH.DISPENSATION FROM BANNS
From the first lot of info it says both William and Ellen 's fathers are dead. In the second lot of info it has Williams mother as Margaret Cochran
I think I want to scream ::) ;)
I have deleted the information about the marriage above - it has been dealt with in this thread already but you also had it from a while ago.
However the above information re the Church records is new to this thread (but not to you) and throws all the Murphy/Sweeney information into doubt.
According to this his mother was Cochran so the one found b Fethard does not seem likely.
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Sorry heywood, This tree is! what can I say. I though we had it all tied up and finished. sigh!
Which now curses huge confusion. I have not been able to find death notices for neither William or Ellen's fathers, looked at all the counties. Nor, like you any info on a Margaret Cochran. And differently no marriage for her and a Edmond Murphy.
A nothing thing, I am now questing the death notice I have found for William. There is no mention of the other wives on the death notice, either the new wife did not know about them, which I think is unlikely.
I will have to go back and look at every William Murphy in South Africa and there are quite a lot. Not as many as Ireland but still a lot.
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1901 census says William is born Tipperary.
I think the military record found ties in too with an enlistment of 1878.
The births found to Edmund Murphy and Margaret Sweeney were Clonmel or Cashel, I think, and then Thurles. There are so many deaths for Edmond Murphy, many of which are not yet transcribed so it is going to be quite a task.
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If Edmund was a Policeman in the county then neither he or his wife can be a native of that county!
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From the first lot of info it says both William and Ellen 's fathers are dead. In the second lot of info it has Williams mother as Margaret Cochran
What details are on William's siblings Marriages?
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Hallmark,
The ‘siblings’ we have for William have the mother Margaret Sweeney. On the births we have that Edmond was a labourer (around 1870s) and the marriage I posted for a possible sibling Andrew, his father was an Agent, as he was, I think.
They may now not be relevant.
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Hallmark,
The ‘siblings’ we have for William have the mother Margaret Sweeney. On the births we have that Edmond was a labourer (around 1870s) and the marriage I posted for a possible sibling Andrew, his father was an Agent, as he was, I think.
They may now not be relevant.
I think so but they thought they had it all tied up and finished so just wondering about siblings,,,
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This is from that previous thread
Hi Sarah thanks for info
I have received the following details from maggsie & cath 151 (1) date of birth 5.10.1860 (2) born county Tipperary (3) brother named John born 1856 (4) the following still to be confirmed :- (1) was his wife's name Ellen (nee McGrath) (2) where can a 'vault' copy of his birth certificate be obtained and @ what cost ?
Thank you,
regards
Bmur
We have
William Murphy baptised 11 September 1862 Fethard Tipp. With parents Edmund and Margaret Sweeney
John Murphy baptised 12 August 1860 Fethard - Edmund and Margaret Sweeney
There are others.
Two posters - Maggsie and cath151 - on that other thread have given contrary information re births. Maybe you can find out what records that information comes from.
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This is from that previous thread
Hi Sarah thanks for info
I have received the following details from maggsie & cath 151 (1) date of birth 5.10.1860 (2) born county Tipperary (3) brother named John born 1856 (4) the following still to be confirmed :- (1) was his wife's name Ellen (nee McGrath) (2) where can a 'vault' copy of his birth certificate be obtained and @ what cost ?
Thank you,
regards
Bmur
We have
William Murphy baptised 11 September 1862 Fethard Tipp. With parents Edmund and Margaret Sweeney
John Murphy baptised 12 August 1860 Fethard - Edmund and Margaret Sweeney
There are others.
Two posters - Maggsie and cath151 - on that other thread have given contrary information re births. Maybe you can find out what records that information comes from.
Probably in some Church Register? Maybe poster has source.
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Yes will go to that thread and ask the poster. Thanks hallmark
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Is there relevant stuff on that thread?
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Well I think I have good news. I went to the library to search for the military mentions on FindMyPast for William Murphy born 1860/1, County Tipperary.
There are 5 records - 4 for Fethard ( Tethard transcription on 2) and 1 born Cahir which I have discounted.
I have no knowledge of military movements between regiments etc. I made notes but not really detailed ones and hope I can now interpret them.
I think these 4 records all apply to the same man.
Record 1
Clonmel 28 May 1901
William Murphy Colour Sregeant no 2312 born Fethard 39 yrs
Formerly Royal Irish Regiment and RIR Battalion time expired
Height 5’ 11 3/4 “ 210 lbs Ruddy complexion; Grizzled Hair was brown; R C
Service
Home 1901
Mediterranean 1901-1904
South Africa 1904- 1905
Campaigns
Nile 1884-5
Black Mountains Expedition 1888
N.O.K.
Ellen Murphy Kilmolash
Mary Ellen Kilmolash both Clonmel
Enlisted 18yrs 12th November 1878
Previous service - Home/India/Afghanistan/ India/Egypt/Home/India/Home
“Wife died struck off the strength of the Battalion 18.12.02.”
I think the above means that Ellen was with him when she died.
There is a death in Army indexes
Ellen Murphy 31 yrs 1902 Malta go 58
I will try to shorten/combine the other records
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Record 2
Much the same as 1 except:
Proceedings on Discharge
2312 Sergeant William Murphy
Royal Garrison Red 4th Battalion
Discharge 10.4.1905
Place of Discharge: Harrismith
Age 44 yrs 9 months ; height 5’11 3/4 “ ; same hair description as previously
Trade: Bricklayer
Intended Place Residence
Prison Dept
Bloemfontein
Discharged in consequence of “ the reduction of establishment with a view to pension”.
Conduct and character both a Good
Received Bounty £11
Record 3
11 April 1878
William is 18yrs
5’ 5” tall, fresh complexion and brown hair.
Details lots of movement - countries listed earlier.
Discharged as Sergeant 11.11.1890.
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This last record is interesting
Short Service Attestation
No.145 Wm Murphy R I Colour Sergeant
B Fethard
38yrs 5 months
Bricklayer
Married: No
Dated London 22 March 1900
38yrs 5 months; 5’ 11 1/8 “ ; dark complexion; hair G Black
Religion: Church of England
R I reserves
Clonmel 24.3.1900
Curragh 29.3.00
Promoted Col.Sgt 24.4.00
There is a blank page with the address: Avondale Cottage, Tadworth, Surrey but nothing else.
I have looked at 1901 census - nothing to indicate any connection.
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It all seems good - just that marriage record with his mother as Margaret Cochrane is the difficulty.
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The first two definitely look like William's. The third one is interesting but a few differences from the other two.
Record two that you found mentions Bloemfontein and prison dept. which matches with his death notice. Bloemfontein is in the Free State and this is were he stayed.
I think we are definitely getting some were with this.
William Murphy religion is RC. according to the 1901 census
Thanks heywwod
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It could well be him. People didn’t always tell the truth, or whoever wrote it down might have just entered that for religion.
He wasn’t married at that time though, place of birth, rank and occupation fits with another record.
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heywood thought you might be interested to know that the meaning of this “Wife died struck off the strength of the Battalion 18.12.02.”
Recently receive this info link-
http://www.royalengineers.ca/femnkid.html
Some woman, wives of soldiers were allowed to live with their husbands at the barracks including the children. Woman had to work in the barracks, probably doing the washing cleaning, mending of clothes and so on. They had to earn their keep.
So being struck off of the strength of the Battalion means she died and was not under the care of that regiment any longer.
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Thanks for that. I thought that would be the reason when I wrote that I thought it meant she was with him.
I recall reading about the wives several years ago, doing those jobs. What a hard existence.
That’s very interesting reading about their lives.
Thanks and all good wishes.
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Hi everyone, thanks for all your help. Back with some other info I found for Edmond Murphy.
Thanking into consideration that according to the sons marriage certificates Edmond was dead. William's marriage 1900 then Andrew's 1897.
I found this probate index for an Edmond. Died 22 Jan 1894 everything left to Margaret Murphy widow. Could this be right?
Another thing on Williams's marriage record it says his father was a policemen. But all other documents says he is a labourer.
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Hi all, thanks for all of the hard work put into this research 4 or 5 years ago. I am impressed with the cooperation of the members. I have just joined today after finding this thread and am amazed to see the same research results that I have just found myself over the last month. I am helping my cousin Liam Murphy from Clonmel with his research into this family and he also did a lot of legwork himself over the years examining RIC police records for Edmond(Edward) and military records for William Murphy. Liam is a great grandson of Wm D Murphy and his first wife Ellen Magrath(McGrath) who died in Malta. Their 2 year old daughter Mary Ellen was sent back to Ireland with a nurse to be reared by her step-grandmother Kate McGrath, a widow and 2nd wife of Laurence McGrath and so stepmother of the deceased Ellen. That baby survived and married another unrelated Murphy (James) in 1922 in Clonmel. Their son was Liam's father.
William(1862) definitely had an older brother John born in Fethard in 1860, but I am not sure whether the 6 or 7 children born in Thurles after 1862 (Andrew, Martin, Edmond, etc.) to an Edmond Murphy and Margaret Sweeney are the same family ; they could be but it is also possible to have a couple with exactly the same 2 names in another town in County Tipperary. Maybe Edmond (RIC policeman) was transferred.
A possibility on first army enlistment is that William borrowed John's 1860 date of birth in order to join up in 1878 when he was only 16.
William left the army in South Africa and worked in the Bloemfontein prison service. He married a much younger wife in 1911 and they had 3 sons. They divorced in 1927 and she remarried in 1928. I don't know if William ever returned to Ireland (to visit) or if he had a 3rd wife but he did live into his 90's and died at Lichtenburg (a mining area near Johannesburg) in 1954. His death cert says intended burial place was Lichtenburg Municipal Cemetery and so I have created a FindAGrave memorial for him there with a request for a volunteer to identify and photograph the grave.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/285101970/william-desmond-murphy
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@Karytay , that will/testament was probably for a different Edmond Murphy ; the address was CastleJohn (near Carrick-on-Suir and Grangemockler) rather than Fethard (or Thurles or Clonmel).
Also unlikely that a retired policeman would have had as much as £79 when he died.
When he was discharged from the police force he received a gratuity of £6-15-5.
From the R.I.C. records (colonial police - Royal Irish Constabulary) for Edward Murphy, No. 17189.
Native of Fermanagh. 5 foot 8 1/4 inches. Roman Catholic. Aged 18 on joining on 15 June 1853. Recommended by Rev. R. Johnston (Protestant clergyman). Previously a labourer. Assigned to Tipperary 9 Nov 1853. Promoted to 1st Sub Constable 1st January 1854. Discharged on gratuity of £6-15-5 (no date or further details).
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Here is Form H in 1901 for the Barrack at Athlone.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Westmeath/Athlone_Urban__W_/Ranelagh/1773942/
If you scroll down you can see the last name is W Murphy. Under that you can see Barrack Return (Form H) - page 6 is the last page. The name looks like ‘Murthy’ but all rest fits - C Sergt RIRR b Tipperary.
For ‘Occupation’, I think it might read ‘unemployed’ but it has been transcribed as ‘Employer’ on the census page for ‘show all information’. It is difficult to decide.
@heywood , re. Reply #51 , the occupation on the original handwritten form was Bricklayer.
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Hi everyone, thanks for all your help. Back with some other info I found for Edmond Murphy.
Thanking into consideration that according to the sons marriage certificates Edmond was dead. William's marriage 1900 then Andrew's 1897.
I found this probate index for an Edmond. Died 22 Jan 1894 everything left to Margaret Murphy widow. Could this be right?
Another thing on Williams's marriage record it says his father was a policemen. But all other documents says he is a labourer.
@Karytay, the man who started the other thread 10 years ago (bmur) is possibly the Benjamin Murphy on Ancestry who has a minimal family tree there and who started a tree on FamilySearch in 2018 which has now become part of a global tree and is still being edited and corrected by multiple users : https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/pedigree/portrait/LBRV-7QG
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Here is Form H in 1901 for the Barrack at Athlone.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Westmeath/Athlone_Urban__W_/Ranelagh/1773942/
If you scroll down you can see the last name is W Murphy. Under that you can see Barrack Return (Form H) - page 6 is the last page. The name looks like ‘Murthy’ but all rest fits - C Sergt RIRR b Tipperary.
For ‘Occupation’, I think it might read ‘unemployed’ but it has been transcribed as ‘Employer’ on the census page for ‘show all information’. It is difficult to decide.
@heywood , re. Reply #51 , the occupation on the original handwritten form was Bricklayer.
Can see it now :)
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Thanks KevinOK
For the info and help.
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Thanks KevinOK
For the info and help.
Hi again karytay, are you part of the Murphy family? Liam would love to make contact with the South African family. Do you know the researcher Benjamin Murphy? We have also seen that an Anglo-Boer War researcher Karen van Wyk was asking about Wm Murphy on the Anglo-Boer War Forum 5 yrs ago. Thanks, Kevin.
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Hi Kevin
Yes, That was me on the Boer War Forum. I am not a member of the Murphy family. I was researching a friend of mine's Murphy family there in South Africa. I know Benjamin, both Sr and Jr. Sr has past away about 2 or 3 years ago. I have not worked on they tree for a long time. I left it to Benjamin Sr. just helping now and again. I know his son Douglas.
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Hi Kevin
Yes, That was me on the Boer War Forum. I am not a member of the Murphy family. I was researching a friend of mine's Murphy family there in South Africa. I know Benjamin, both Sr and Jr. Sr has past away about 2 or 3 years ago. I have not worked on they tree for a long time. I left it to Benjamin Sr. just helping now and again. I know his son Douglas.
Thanks Karen, that's great to hear. Could we link up by email please to try to make contact with Benjamin Jr. or Douglas? Liam left you his email address on one of your your Boer War Forum posts a few weeks ago. Thanks, Kevin.
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thanks Kevin. better delete your email address
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Done. Thanks.
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Sent email