RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Fredsboy on Sunday 02 February 20 17:53 GMT (UK)
-
John Howell is my GGGF and the earliest record I can find is 1881 Census living at at Mina Court, Blackfriars (28 Years a general labourer born Surrey Southwark). He is with 'wife' Ellen although I don't think they ever married. After her death in childbirth in 1888 he married Esther Thurbin and the marriage record has him a bachelor (not widower) and father William, a fish salesman.
All Ellen's family lived around the small area between Waterloo and Blackfriars Bridge Roads.
I suspect John is the same John Howell aged 4 in the 1861 Census at 29 Jurston Street. In the 1851 census The Howells are at 23 Gun Street (a stones throw) with Head William and wife Mary, so I have been digging deeper to eliminate that line.
By 1861 William is no longer in the census. Charles 15, Anne 11 and William 8 are all by William and Mary (maiden name Murphy). Frederick 6, John 4 and James 2 do not come up at GRO or other records as MMN Murphy and I cannot find any birth or baptisms records that definitively identify these three boys. Peculiarly, in May of 1861 Mary Howell (maiden name Murphy) of 29 Jurston Street did have another child, Mary, with William, a costermonger, named as father. There was a lodger, Margaret Murphy , in 1861 who may have been related.
I cannot definitively identify the family in 1871, although by now the older children would probably have flown the nest and there are various similar name/age Charles etc. locally lodging at various addresses.
I am local and willing to plough through non on line records etc. if anyone can help with hints and tips what to do/check next. You have all been so helpful to date with many heads better than one.
-
Fredsboy -- just a quick immediate reaction -- if the John you think is yours on 1861 census aged 4 -- then this doesn't match your title of circa 1850 - nor does it fit in with the age of the 28 year old John in 1881.
Are you sure of your dates please?
-
Hi Fredsboy
I don't know if you already knew this. The surname of Ellen (John's first 'wife') was Weatherby, according to the birth register for daughter Isabella in Q4, 1880.
Paul
-
Could this be John in 1871 - lodger and labourer b Southwark
Class RG10; Piece 596; Folio 52; Page 43
-
Thanks all so far. He dies in 1900 and the death cert has him aged 42 suggesting circa 1858 birth. This ties in with the 1861 census. I don't trust any of the ages on the census. Looking at the family I can verify, ages vary tremendously across census records, so in 1881 he would have been 23 odd. I double checked original for 1881 and it says 28. Could be a typo for 23 or could be that he fibbed to seem older, he wasn't the father of Ellen's daughter Mary in that census. My post Title is wrong, my typo, I meant 1850s, good spot, not sure if or how i can edit it.
Re Class RG10; Piece 596; Folio 52; Page 43. This is a good match re age and address (couple of streets away from 'base') and I have it on a post it on the wall to try and develop further - I will research the occupants for any better links.
Thank you again, keep them coming, helpful to question my assumptions
-
Apologies, re Ellen. I have that side of the family pretty much nailed now which is why the howell side is so frustrating.
P
-
Fredsboy -- as you are the original poster you can just amend the title.
Often we need to bear in mind that people in the 1800s had no reason to remember their real age - they didn't celebrate 'special' birthdays as we do today -- nor did they get a pension at 60 or 65. So I suspect they often just thought 'I am about x'
I confess to not looking at the census records, but from what you say - if he was older than Ellen, then yes - he may well have tried to fit in with her age. The enumerators didn't check that the info they were given - or was written on individual forms (if a householder could write), was correct.
-
I have a baptism that may be 'my' John Howell, but struggling to find any supportive records>:
John Howell Surrey Newington, Trinity 19 bn 2 Dec 1856 to William and Mary at Chatham Place, Locksfields. Locksfields is the area at the top of Walworth/Old Kent Road . Any help/thoughts greatly appreciated.
P
-
maybe i asked the wrong question or the right question in the wrong way. I can can trace William and Mary and the older kids and have birth certificates with MMN Murphy. By 1861 William is off the scene and there are three younger boys, Frederick, John and James with nothing at GRO by MMN Murphy. Them Mary pops up in in 1861 with father William and MMN Murphy.
If William was 'away' (a lot of the family were at that time) and another man was around I'd still expect to find the three Murphy MMN , just no dad or a different dad.
I appreciate ages were not that important and answers for Census and birth certificates were 'flexible' - but nothing? Then all six(mum dad and younger 4) disappear by the 1871 Census. The older kids were work age. Maybe William never came back. There are plenty of Mary Howells in clink and as servants - would the kids have been split up - put in same children's home?
Any thoughts gratefully received to get me over this hurdle.
P
-
"..John Howell is my GGGF "
Who is the son / daughter of John HOWELL.....your great grandparent.?
Can you please name this great grandparent......birth date and place.....their later marriage details.
-
Hi Wivenhoe,
John Howell had five or so children by Elinor (Ellen) Weatherby, there is no evidence they ever married. After her death he did marry Esther Thurbin and they had a child. One of his daughters by Ellen, Isobella Howell 20 SEP 1880, married Harry Waye 7 Sep 1902 in Dartford. They had twelve children including Alice (1907) who was my nan.
P
-
Oh, Elinor (Ellen) was born 19th August 1853 at 6 Victoria Place, Lambeth. M Mary Ann Weatherby nee Aguerra. F John Weatherby
-
[ Copied from prev post ] . . . . .
"Oh, Elinor (Ellen) was born 19th August 1853 at 6 Victoria Place, Lambeth. M Mary Ann Weatherby nee Aguerra"
[ end of copy ]
Recorded as . . . . .
WEATHERBY, ELINOR AGUIRRA
GRO Reference: 1853 S Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 228
WEATHERBY, JANE AGUIRRA
GRO Reference: 1855 S Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 211
-
Thx Guys, as I say, I have the Aguirra/Weatherby side pretty much nailed - its the the Howell side that is a mystery - even more so as I have so much info from 50 years earlier
-
" Oh, Elinor (Ellen) was born 19th August 1853 at .............................. nee Aguerra "
Whilst checking detail to verify info, actually just making sure it wasn't a typo?
We don't have the info you have built up, so we have to replicate research.
-
Thx folks.
I’m very new to this but I think the picture I have built on A*&£#Y (can i say it?) is public, and I have indicated where I have primary records and where I’m not sure.
-
We don't have the info you have built up, so we have to replicate research.
Not necessarily. As far as I can see the request is for information on the births/baptisms of the stray children and what happened to them...
........Charles 15, Anne 11 and William 8 are all by William and Mary (maiden name Murphy). Frederick 6, John 4 and James 2 do not come up at GRO or other records as MMN Murphy and I cannot find any birth or baptisms records that definitively identify these three boys.
Fredsboy can you post a link to your tree on Ancestry please?
I have been looking at these baptisms which you may have seen and I can't link them to a family in 1861, except for yours.
John Frederick HOWELL born 1854, John HOWELL born 1856, and Owen James HOWELL born 1858. All sons of William a general dealer and Mary, baptised at Newington St Mary, Southwark. I cannot see birth registrations for any of these children. Father William is also described as a general dealer when Mary was baptised in 1850 at Lambeth.
Debra :)
-
Thx Debra, here you go https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/165514743/person/332154918208/facts.
I haven't offered up my hunches as I didn't want to introduce bias but I have a strong gut feeling that John Frederick Howell Baptised Dec 10 1854 St Mary Newington to William and Mary of Surrey Court, Blackfriars Road is the Frederick aged 6 in 1861 Census at 29 Jurston. I also believe he is the same Frederick that appears in the 1881 Census at 22 Gun Street having married Victoria Jane Humpries, who goes by the name Jane. I just can't verify it.
I am also pretty certain that John Howell baptism Newington 2 Dec 1856 to William and Mary of Chatham Place, Locksfields is Freds brother, my GGGF.
Owen James I hadn't spotted before (wood for trees) so thank you for that one. Holland Place is geographically good. The family seemed to be constantly on the move from houses being demolished for the railways - maybe knowing the railways were disrupting meant rent was cheaper. I am building a very good picture of that part of North Lambeth mid C19th.
There is a Frederick Paul Howell Bn 1854 and an Owen Alfred Howell Bn 1861 both MMN Probert. These are the Grosvenor Square (St George Hanover) Howells that are very similar. Hannah Probert married Valentine Fred Howell and I have sufficient details on their family to differentiate.
Odd that Mary Murphy went to the trouble of registering but Fred, John and James are invisible, maybe William was not the father but the double 'shame' of not baptising was a step too far. I have some Glaswegian friends that tell me tell me stories of damnation if the kids go to the wrong school.
Thanks you all for your time and attention - between us I'm sure we'll crack it. I still live locally so I am happy to plough through written records, graveyards etc. I just haven't learned the next bit after internet searching. But I am reading up..
-
Ignore this - getting confused
-
And a second post I'm deleting
-
Don't worry, I get confused daily on this - hence the post it wall and constant self questioning. :)
-
New info - plot thickens..
Death 25 May 1864 at 36 Jurston Street (1861 Census Howells at No.29) of James Howell aged 6 (about right), son of William Howell, a costermonger, and Julia Ann either Waller or Watter, I all add a picture (Watter is MMN of the "Bedford Howells" of Frances Street Lambeth who decamped to Rotherhithe late 1850s - still piecing this one together - previously thought no relation).
James 2/Sep 1860 (3 James' Place Oakley Street) and John 18 Nov 1856 (20 PonsonbyPLace, Millbank) were both to James Howell and Eliza Howell late Dickson formerly Robinson.