RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Lalzovi on Sunday 19 January 20 17:42 GMT (UK)
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I don't generally pursue my cousin lines but my curiosity has been piqued by a first cousin of an ancestor who apparently married a French captain in France. I would love to know if they had children and descendants but FamilySearch yielded no results and I am feeling out of my depth on the French sites. Can anyone help or at least point me in the right direction so I can have a better go at it myself?
Frances Louisa Petch d/o William Heath Petch married Captain Theophile Marcelin Besson at a Reformed Church in Batignolles in 1856. Her name was registered in the marriage as Francoise but I am not sure whether she retained the French form of her name. I am also not convinced she adopted the name Besson. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-X9F9-BH9?cc=1582585
There are other details on the marriage reg that I can't quite make out. Although they married in Batignolles, Theophile was in Lyon at the time of his death in 1890, and a retired captain. His only kin was named as Petch. http://www.beaune.fr/IMG/pdf/7z_faire_part.pdf
{EDITED TO REMOVE ERRONEOUS CENSUS DATA}
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There are other details on the marriage reg that I can't quite make out.
My best effort at a translation:
17 April 1856. On deposit of the certificate of civil marriage
contracted the same day at the Town Hall of Batignolles
Theophile Marcelin Besson, captain in the 23rd [Regiment] of the line, 13 Rue d'Autin(?) Batignolles
son of Ambrose Besson deceased and of Marie Augustine
Besson deceased and Francoise Louisa Petch daughter of
William Heath Petch and of Elisa Phillips deceased
received the nuptial benediction through the
Ministry of Louis Vernes pastor of the Reformed Church of Batignolles
Signed below with the couple & the witnesses
I have kept the translation as literal as I can.
ITheophile was in Lyon at the time of his death in 1890, and a retired captain. His only kin was named as Petch. http://www.beaune.fr/IMG/pdf/7z_faire_part.pdf
The link is to an index. Looking at the other listings, it seems that the line "Familles: Petch" simply means that Petch is the only surname which has been linked to T M Besson.
Philip
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Geneanet has an reference to Francoise-Louisa PETCH dated 1916 - but it requires a Premium Membership to access it - which I don't have!
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01owh/
the literal translation of the snippet is: of the succession of Mme Francoise-Louisa Petch, who had her lifetime residing at Lyon.....
Philip
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The Geneanet reference is to a notice in the newspaper Le Salut Public naming the administrator designated by the court to administer the estate of Françoise-Louse PETCH and requesting beneficiaries and creditors to make themselves known within a fortnight. It states that Françoise-Louise PETCH, widow of Théophile Marcelin BESSON, late of 11 cours Lafayette, Lyon, died on 2 February 1916.
Judith
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On another subscription site there is an entry in the Bulletin des Lois - I suppose the London Gazette would be a rough equivalent - stating that Capt. Th-M BESSON ceased active army service on 31 January 1863, married on 17 April 1856 (as you know), died on 12 January 1890 and was in receipt of an army pension, so 1,100 francs pension would be paid to his widow Fr-L PETCH, born on 2 January 1834 in Calais, living in Lyon, from 13 January 1890.
You say you don't know if Françoise-Louisa used the Besson surname. As you may know, a woman doesn't lose her maiden name on marriage in France so you would expect to find it on any official or legal documents.
Judith
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Théophile-Marcelin BESSON is recorded in the Archives de Lyon as dying on 12 January 1890 - so I think the two figures were inverted somewhere along the way. He was living at 32 cours du Midi at the time.
He was born on 20 June 1812 in St Laurent-en-Gradvaux, Jura.
He was awarded the Légion d'Honneur on 11 March 1857: see
www2.culture.gouv.fr/LH/LH017/PG/FRDAFAN83_OL0225040v001.htm
Judith
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Thank you both so much, you've been very busy during my night hours!
The Geneanet reference is to a notice in the newspaper Le Salut Public naming the administrator designated by the court to administer the estate of Françoise-Louse PETCH and requesting beneficiaries and creditors to make themselves known within a fortnight. It states that Françoise-Louise PETCH, widow of Théophile Marcelin BESSON, late of 11 cours Lafayette, Lyon, died on 2 February 1916.
This would suggest they were childless, am I right? They lived long enough to have had children but it does rather seem that they might not have done. Are there any online BMD-type databases I can search for Lyon and Batignolles? I wonder if she kept in touch were her Lincolnshire and London family.
You say you don't know if Françoise-Louisa used the Besson surname. As you may know, a woman doesn't lose her maiden name on marriage in France so you would expect to find it on any official or legal documents.
Yes, I thought as much. I doubted myself because Theophile's parents were both called Besson on the marriage registration. They were probably related.
He was awarded the Légion d'Honneur on 11 March 1857: see
www2.culture.gouv.fr/LH/LH017/PG/FRDAFAN83_OL0225040v001.htm
Wow - a year after their marriage! I wonder what he did. Was there ever a reason for a successful French captain to end up on the Lincolnshire coast in those days or can we assume that Francoise had already moved to France (or possibly London first) for her own reasons?
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On another subscription site there is an entry in the Bulletin des Lois - I suppose the London Gazette would be a rough equivalent - stating that Capt. Th-M BESSON ceased active army service on 31 January 1863, married on 17 April 1856 (as you know), died on 12 January 1890 and was in receipt of an army pension, so 1,100 francs pension would be paid to his widow Fr-L PETCH, born on 2 January 1834 in Calais, living in Lyon, from 13 January 1890.
Now this is interesting - she was definitely christened on 13 Feb 1831 at Laceby and remained there at least until the 1851 census. Could she have been 'of Calais' at the time of her marriage instead? Though the family were in remote and humble circumstances, they were well-connected to the Petch and Heath families in London. Her father's middle name (Heath) suggests that one of these relatives could have been his godparent. I do wonder if she had accompanied a wealthier cousin or uncle on one of their visits to France as a kind of protegee. I'll do a little more digging on that side. {EDITED DUE TO ERRONEOUS CENSUS DATA}
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He was born on 20 June 1812 in St Laurent-en-Gradvaux, Jura.
He was awarded the Légion d'Honneur on 11 March 1857: see
www2.culture.gouv.fr/LH/LH017/PG/FRDAFAN83_OL0225040v001.htm
Judith
The large age-gap between the couple is notable - 1812/1831
Looking at the wiki for the 23rd line regiment, it looks like they took part in the conquest of Algeria from 1830-1857 - he could actually have been in Algeria from the moment of his entering service. The conquest culminated in the capture of resistance leader Lalla Fatma N'Soumer in 1857. She seems to have been a Boudicea-like character. She was captured in July, which means this can't be reason for the award, but perhaps Theophile had previously conducted himself well in other Algerian campaigns.
Whatever the truth is, it does feel like the plot of a dramatic novel is starting to take shape! I really do hope they have descendants.
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I'm a bit confused here;
So who was this Frances?
Marriage FreeBMD 1858 Frances PETCH/George CROSS on same page.
FreeREG has the Marriage;
05 May 1858 St Margaret, Laceby
George CROSS, Full Age, Bachelor, Labourer, Father EDWARD a Labourer
Lacfrances PETCH, Full Age, Spinster, Father WILLIAM Petch a Gardener**
Witnesses, William Petch/Eliza Cross
1851 as you say Frances is Fanny Petch, living with her Parents.
1861/1871/1881 Frances CROSS is born c 1831 Laceby
1891 the Family appears to be in Canada
Trish :)
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Frances Louisa Petch
Baptism, 08 Jan 1834
Calais and St Omer, France
Father's Name:
William Heath Petch
Mother's Name:
Eliza
So looks to me 2 different Families;
FRANCIS Petch Bapt 17 Nov 1838 Laceby to WILLIAM/ELIZABETH
They also Bapt;
ANN 02 Oct 1818
MARY 30 Jul 1820
ELIZABETH 12 Jul 1821
ELIZA 25 Apr 1824
CAROLINE 09 Sep 1827
FRANCES 13 Feb 1831*****
WILLIAM 24 Jan 1836
Then Francis 1838***
William PETCH married Elizabeth RICHARDSON 23 Oct 1817 St Margaret, Laceby
William Heath PETCH married Eliza PHILLIPS 29 June 1822, St. Bride Fleet Street, London
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Frederick William Petch
Birth Date: 28 Jul 1831
Baptism Date: 30 Apr 1832, Old Church, Saint Pancras, London
Father: William Heath Petch
Mother: Eliza
Image has WHP as a Clerk in the Customs House***
Address Keppell St
Also to William/Eliza St Pancras;
ISABELLA Petch Bapt 14 Jan 1826, Birth 16 Dec 1825
Father a Customs Clerk***
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Goodness me - thank you all so much for the correction. A huge error on my part!!
I'll make the necessary changes and sort out the mess. William Heath Petch of Fleet Street is actually likely an ancestral cousin of my London Heaths and Petches anyway so I'll have to figure both families out.
Terribly sorry to have wasted your time...
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Isabella married 1849, Daug of Mrs William Heath Petch, Albany St, Regents Park
Spouse The Marquis de la Fare.
Granddaughter of Richard Phillips
Death 1833 At Bloomsbury-sq. aged 38, William Heath Petch, esq. of the Custom-house.
Entries Gentlemans Magazine, found by googling William Heath Petch
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Your welcome and it was no waste of time, I enjoyed the chase ;D
Look at FreeREG.
I think Williams Bapt is mistranscribed;
HILLWOLLEY Petch 14 Jan 1792 St James, Louth to HILL/AMELIA (WILLIAM ??)
Siblings;
ELIZABETH Petch 26 Aug 1790
HENRY PHILLIPSON Petch 06 May 1798
I think the other WILLIAM Petch was Bapt Laceby 23 Sep 1793 to JAMES/ANN
Amelia is on the 1841 Census born c 1768 living in Islington.
Trish :)
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Thanks - I've figured it out now. It was a case of having the right names and the wrong censuses attached on FamilySearch. With both Williams having been born in Lincolnshire and Frances' last known date in England corresponding to Francoise's marriage I had failed to see the discrepancy at first.
William Heath Petch remains the first cousin of my direct ancestors so my interest in the story of Francoise still stands.
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Good luck with it all :)
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Sorry to be a bit of a wet blanket, but I don't think you necessarily had to do anything particularly outstanding to be awarded the Légion d'Honneur at least in those days. I say that based on the fact that three of my husband's ancestors also got it: two after retiring from the army and the navy, before WW1, and the other, later, for gallantry during WW1. And another in a side line was a teacher.
The Archives de Paris hold civil registration records from 1860 - those of earlier years were destroyed by fire and have been partially reconstituted. See:
http://archives.paris.fr/r/124/etat-civil-de-paris/
Batignolles was outside Paris until 1860 when it became part of the new 17th arrondissement.
Civil registration for Lyon is held at the Archives de Lyon:
http://www.fondsenligne.archives-lyon.fr/ac69v2/genealogie.php?mode=1
Judith
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Hello,
Her birth record in Calais
http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/ark:/64297/e627555974699908b2759bda8ab9e16b
Françoise Louisa PETCH, daughter of Eliza PHILIPPS, 30 years old, widow of William Heath PETCH.
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https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPCK-F94B
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Marie Augustine BESSON died in 1829. She was a widow.
http://archives39.fr/ark:/36595/a011423563653Let02l/95e48ac228
View 241
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Sorry to be a bit of a wet blanket, but I don't think you necessarily had to do anything particularly outstanding to be awarded the Légion d'Honneur at least in those days. I say that based on the fact that three of my husband's ancestors also got it: two after retiring from the army and the navy, before WW1, and the other, later, for gallantry during WW1. And another in a side line was a teacher.
The Archives de Paris hold civil registration records from 1860 - those of earlier years were destroyed by fire and have been partially reconstituted. See:
http://archives.paris.fr/r/124/etat-civil-de-paris/
Batignolles was outside Paris until 1860 when it became part of the new 17th arrondissement.
Civil registration for Lyon is held at the Archives de Lyon:
http://www.fondsenligne.archives-lyon.fr/ac69v2/genealogie.php?mode=1
Judith
Good point - thanks. It's at least interesting to see where his regiment had been posted for the majority of his service.
Thanks for the links too. I really doubt I'm going to find any children but it's worth a try, if only to gain some experience in navigating French archive sites.
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Hello,
Her birth record in Calais
http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/ark:/64297/e627555974699908b2759bda8ab9e16b
Françoise Louisa PETCH, daughter of Eliza PHILIPPS, 30 years old, widow of William Heath PETCH.
Thanks David, you really know where to look!