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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (North Riding) => Topic started by: carrie-bob on Sunday 19 January 20 16:49 GMT (UK)
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Hello everyone, I am in need of your help again please.
I am hoping to keep this as simple as possible. I am helping a friend research their family tree and I have hit a problem that I can't seem to solve. I know that you shouldn't always rely on oral family history as things can get distorted over time, but the stories say that her great grandmothers on her mother's side were related, possibly cousins. I can certainly say that their maiden names were the same and they both came from Bilsdale.
Great Grandmother number 1 = Mary Hannah Garbutt born circa 1865 Bilsdale.
She married James Pettit in 1884 in Middlesborough and they had 4 children. After James died she married Robert Wilkinson Hearn in 1896 in Middlesborough.
1911 census lists her mother as Mary Garbutt age 66, widow, born Bilsdale.
Great Grandmother number 2 = Martha Alice Garbutt born circa 1867 Bilsdale.
She married George Dennis in 1884 in Pickering and had 11 children. In 1911 the family was living in York as George worked for the railway.
I am struggling to locate these two ladies before they married on any census record. I think I have just been staring at the problem too long and the solution is probably really obvious, but any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks, Carrie xx :)
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Have you looked for their births on freebmd or GRO?
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Maybe, 1871 Bilsdale
John Garbutt 31
Anne Garbutt 29
Martha H Garbutt Dtr 6 (born c1865)
William Garbutt Son 4
J H Garbutt Son 2
Thomas Garbutt Son
Martha Garbutt Niece 4 (born c1867)
Henry Garbutt Uncle 58
RG10/4860 f120 p12
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBZ8-MBQ
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Number 1)
Illegitimate?
Mary Hannah Garbutt
Baptised 13 November 1864 at Great Ayton,York
Mother: Mary Ann Garbutt
FHL Film Number: 894234
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What were their father's names on the marriage certificates?
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Choice of Stokesley births:
Mary hannah Garbutt mmn Bell 1863 Dec quarter Stokesley 09d 443
Mary hannah Garbutt - 1864 Dec quarter Stokesley 09d 440
Mary hannah Garbutt - 1864 Dec quarter Stokesley 09D 443
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Both in Bilsdale in 1881
Martha H with parents John & Ann
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27B-LYL6
Martha A - servant
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27B-LYBB
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Choice of Stokesley births:
Mary hannah Garbutt mmn Bell 1863 Dec quarter Stokesley 09d 443
Mary hannah Garbutt - 1864 Dec quarter Stokesley 09d 440
Mary hannah Garbutt - 1864 Dec quarter Stokesley 09D 443
The MMN Bell birth would fit with the census
GARBUTT, WILLIAM mmnBELL
1866 Dec Quarter in STOKESLEY Volume 09D Page 467
Ignore, see reply 14
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Cannot see a Martha Alice birth in Stokesley, there is this:
Martha Garbutt - 1866 September quarter Stokesley 09D 458
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Ryedale marriages
Martha Alice Garbutt
Married 2nd August 1884 at Sinnington
Spouse George Dennis Groom signed Bachelor 23 occupation Agricultural Labourer parish Marton
Groom's father's names William Dennis occupation Labourer
Bride signed Spinster 19 occupation Servant parish Marton
Bride's father's first name(s) -
Witnesses Charles Dennis, Susan Dennis
Minister John Swalwell
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Ryedale Baptisms
27 Dec 1864 Martha Hannah dtr of John & Ann -occ Farmer - abode Conyser, Bilsdale
26 January 1867 Martha daughter of Mary Garbutt -singlewoman -abode Conyser, Bilsdale
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Hello everyone, just had tea and looked at all your replies, they have been very helpful.
If there isn't a fathers name on the marriage record between Martha Alice and George Dennis do you think that Martha Alice is the Martha Garbutt born 1866 Sept Q and baptised 26 January 1867, daughter of Mary Garbutt single woman?
Could that mean that she is the niece of John and Anne Garbutt on 1871 census in Bilsdale?
And is she the Martha Garbutt b 1867 Bilsdale on 1881 census at Oak House, Yorkshire, servant indoors in the household of William Hart?
John Garbutt married to Ann on 1871 census has his uncle Henry living with them. So I think I have found him on 1851 census in Bilsdale with his parents (John and Hannah), his siblings (Monica, Jane, Mary, Martha and Hannah) His father's brother Henry is also living with the family...
Does that make any sense?
Thanks, Carrie xx
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Has your friend got the relevant certificates as you have worked back to confirm that you are following the correct families?
e.g. the actual certificates for the marriages of Mary and Martha to confirm father's names in case they are not shown on-line in any records?
Also in that 1871 census - with John and Anne Garbutt - which marriage does that correspond to?
Added:
Think this marriage:
Marriages September quarter 1860
John Garbutt Stokesley 9d 605
Ann Hunton Stokesley 9d 605
so you are looking on GRO to check for Garbutt/Hunton births for their children?
Did you find them on 1861 census?
Double added:
Garbutt family with a Hunton family almost next door in 1861.
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Garbutt/Hunton births in Stokesley:
Martha Hannah 1864
Monica 1872
Jane 1875
Thomas 1870
John Henry 1868
William 1866
John Thomas 1860
This gives a Martha Hannah not a Mary Hannah nor Martha Alice. Did they change around names, or not born in Stokesley, or what...
There is a Martha Hannah Garbutt marriage in Stokesley in 1884.
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Maybe, 1871 Bilsdale
John Garbutt 31
Anne Garbutt 29
Martha H Garbutt Dtr 6 (born c1865)
William Garbutt Son 4
J H Garbutt Son 2
Thomas Garbutt Son
Martha Garbutt Niece 4 (born c1867)
Henry Garbutt Uncle 58
RG10/4860 f120 p12
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBZ8-MBQ
Looking again at this family as I think my earlier Bell link was wrong and that Chempat has the right marriage
John Henry Garbutt - birth gives MMN Hunton
Baptism 02 Nov 1868 at Bilsdale
Parents John & Ann
GARBUTT, MARTHA HANNAH mmn HUNTON
1864 Sept Quarter in STOKESLEY Volume 09D Page 462
GARBUTT, WILLIAM mmn HUNTON
1866 Sept Quarter in STOKESLEY Volume 09D Page 458
GARBUTT, THOMAS mmn HUNTON
1870 Dec Quarter in STOKESLEY Volume 09D Page 490
Sorry if I have duplicated info, got a thick head this morning (A heavy cold not drink ;D )
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I have been using the GRO to try and locate both these ladies. I couldn't find Martha Alice on it at all.
I found a couple of Mary Hannahs, but none of the dates fit or her mum wasn't called Mary
The only link I have to Mary Hannah is that on the 1911 census it lists her mother as being called Mary Garbutt age 66 from Bilsdale, which would mean she was born circa 1845.
My friend doesn't have the marriage certificates, but I think it might be a useful thing if we got them, just to check if I'm even close to being on the right track.
You really have been very helpful,
Thanks, Carrie
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You don't need to get this one as all the information is there.
Ryedale marriages
Martha Alice Garbutt
Married 2nd August 1884 at Sinnington
Spouse George Dennis Groom signed Bachelor 23 occupation Agricultural Labourer parish Marton
Groom's father's names William Dennis occupation Labourer
Bride signed Spinster 19 occupation Servant parish Marton
Bride's father's first name(s) -
Witnesses Charles Dennis, Susan Dennis
Minister John Swalwell
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I thought I would look at Mary Hannah from a different angle
1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7PR-CHF
Mary Hannah Hearn 46 Bilsdale
Esther Hearn Dtr 21 Middlesbro (Esther Pettit Mar Q 1890 mmn Garbutt)
William Hearn Son 19 Middlesbro (William Pettit Sep qtr 1891 mmn Garbutt
Annie Hearn Dtr 16 Middlesbro (Annie Pettit Sep qtr 1894 mmn Garbutt)
Mary Hearn Dtr 11 Wallsend, Northumberland
Robert Wilkinson Hearn Son 4 Wallsend, Northumberland
Mary Garbutt Mother Female 66 Bilsdale, Yorkshire
........
1901 Wallsend
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSMY-NW3
Robert W Hearn 38 bn Newcastle On Tyne
Mary H Hearn 36 bn Bilsdale, Yorkshire
Edith Pettit Step Dtr 11 bn Middlesboro . (probably Esther Pettit)
William Pettit Step Son 9 bn Middlesboro
Mary E Hearn Dtr 1 bn Wallsend
also 1901 (Middlesbrough)
Mary Garbutt 56 born Bilsdale
John Garbutt Son 34 bn Middlesbrough, Yorkshire
John Perry -Boarder 22 bn Middlesbrough
James A Petitt Boarder Single 21 bn Middlesbrough
Annie Pettit - Visitor 6 bn Middlesbrough
....
In 1891 Mary Garbutt is lodging a few doors away from Mary H Pettit
RG12/ 4008 f110 p15
Mary Garbutt age 46 bn Bilsdale - Widow occ Charwoman
I suspect that her mother Mary was not Widowed but just a cover for the fact that she was still single.
More to investigate but have to stop for now
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Just putting that Martha Garbutt baptism:
We have Mary Hannah daughter of Mary Ann in Ayton, baptised 1864,
And
Martha daughter of Mary in Bilsdale, baptised January 1867.
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If this is Mary in 1901 (from Rosie99), who was John, born about 1866, Middlesbrough?
'also 1901 (Middlesbrough)
Mary Garbutt 56 born Bilsdale
John Garbutt Son 34 bn Middlesbrough, Yorkshire
John Perry -Boarder 22 bn Middlesbrough
James A Petitt Boarder Single 21 bn Middlesbrough
Annie Pettit - Visitor 6 bn Middlesbrough'
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The more that I look at this I think that the mother Mary born c1845 who we have in Middlesbrough is Mary the sister of John who married Ann Hunton.
In 1851 Bilsdale Mary age 6 & John with other siblings are living with their parents John and Hannah.
1861 John junior and his new wife Ann are still with Johns parents but Mary (c1845) has now left home. It looks as though she is the 15 yr old servant to Oliver Barr in Bilsdale
1871 John snr & wife Hannah are not with John jnr and Ann & family. Also there is Martha (possible dtr of Mary ) listed as Niece age 4. Mary (c1845) is still in Bilsdale a servant age 26 to Joseph Cook
1881 Niece Martha is not with John & Ann but it is probably her as a 14 yr old servant in Bilsdale.
Dtr Martha is still at home.
......
Baptism at Bilsdale with mother Mary a single woman abode Conyser
John Garbutt 20 Oct 1870
possible birth
GARBUTT, JOHN (No MMN listed)
1869 June Quarter in STOKESLEY Volume 09D Page 449
ADDED . 1871 he is probably a nurse child with the Sunley family who are listed on census next door to John & Ann Garbutt
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I saw that John but thought he was too young and the wrong place to be the John from Middlesborough in 1901.
Perhaps he and Mother were just confused.
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Perhaps he and Mother were just confused.
;D ;D
I can't see either Mary in 1881 or John.
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There are a lot of Garbutts in Stokesley Union Workhouse in 1881.
John 16 Stockton
John 12 Bilsdale
William 10 Stokesley
Annie 7 Stokesley
Jessie 5 Stokesley
Richard 12 Stockton
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Hi,
Mary Hannah Garbutt baptised 27/12/1864 and Martha Garbutt baptised 26/1/1867 both in Bilsdale and both with mother Mary Garbutt single woman. Mary's parents John Garbutt and Hannah Chapman.
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Hi,
Mary Hannah Garbutt baptised 27/12/1864 and Martha Garbutt baptised 26/1/1867 both in Bilsdale and both with mother Mary Garbutt single woman. Mary's parents John Garbutt and Hannah Chapman.
Thank you for posting those baptisms, I thought that they had both already been posted but I see it was only this one
26 January 1867 Martha daughter of Mary Garbutt -singlewoman -abode Conyser, Bilsdale
Summing up we have three children born to Mary - Single woman abode Conyser
Mary 27 Dec 1864
Martha 26 Jan 1867
John 20 Oct 1870
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You are very welcome. Yes, I have those three as children of Mary.
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Sorry, Rosie and Snowqueen, but they have both been posted before.
How do we know definitely that Mary, single woman, was the daughter of John and Hannah? Highly likely, but not yet shown that there is only one Mary. Also, when does Martha become Martha Alice, or are we completely missing something? Waiting to see the marriage certificate information.
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Because both Mary Hannah and Martha were born at the farm where John and Hannah farmed and they had a daughter Mary born 1845 who matches the age of mother Mary Garbutt.
Having studied the Bilsdale records for over 20 years there are often children registered/baptised in one name who then acquire another name.
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Good Morning,
no work today so I'm back on it, you have all been so busy and I cannot thank you enough. I have been reading through all your posts this morning and comparing it with the census information I had found. The baptism information is new to me and very interesting.
Is the answer then that Mary Hannah and Martha Alice could potentially be sisters and not cousins?! That could be so exciting..... I'm not going to get too carried away though...
Carrie, xx :)
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A bit of a puzzle on the 1939 Register? - next door to Martha Alice's son Percy Dennis?
removed
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William Pettit and Robert Wilkinson Hearn are two of the children of Mary Hannah Garbutt. Her first husband was James Pettit who died 1895. Her second husband was Robert Wilkinson Hearn who died 1917.
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I have them but wondering why in 1939 she is Mary H Dennis
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Another mystery?! I would have expected it to be Mary Hannah Hearn or Martha Alice Dennis not Mary Hannah Dennis. The birthdate on the 1939 census 25 Nov 1864 would fit more with Mary Hannah Hearn.
Checked my notes and I don't have the date of death for either George Dennis or Martha Alice Dennis. My mind is racing off in all directions, I hope Mary Hannah didn't marry George Dennis......
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George died I think 1936 and Martha Alice 1927. Stranger things have happened but I checked and can't find a marriage between George Dennis and Mary Hannah Hearn.
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I found a marriage between Mary H Hearn and a Thomas Brent in 1922, then I found a marriage between Mary H Brent and a George Dennis in 1927. I hope I'm just clutching at straws and trying to make things for my crazy tneory, but could this be possible and Mary Hannah just likes getting married. Please tell me I'm crazy 😀
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Both marriages are Registry Office so would need the marriage certificates to confirm but sounds plausible to me. In which case this could be Mary Hannah's death Mary H Dennis 1865 - 1945 York
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Think this is Conyser (Coniser), as I had not realised it was such a small place:
https://maps.nls.uk/view/125627194#zoom=4&lat=4835&lon=9453&layers=BT
side-by-side
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=16&lat=54.3542&lon=-1.1331&layers=168&right=BingHyb
This is on Coniser Farm - take a holiday where your friend's ancestors lived:
https://shepherdshutbilsdale.co.uk/
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As Chempat says, take a holiday to Bilsdale - you and your friend won't be disappointed - it's stunning. If your friend keeps working backwards on their Garbutts they'll eventually link into one of my main lines.
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Wow! just had a look at the Shepherds Hut, it looks amazing. Showed my friend today and I think she may be paying a visit.....