RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: pd on Thursday 16 January 20 08:45 GMT (UK)
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Hello
I am looking for more information on Thomas John SMITH for his daughter who is now 92 years of age.
Tom, as he was known was said to be born in Launceston, Tasmania. The search for his birth certificate hasn't been fruitful so any details of who his mother and father were are unknown.
Tom's WWI record states he was aged 19years 8/12 months when he enlisted in August 1915. This would put his birth to be 1895. His daughter Marjorie believes that he, as many others did lied about his age and he was younger than he declared. The records also state that his father was William Smith of Walter Street, Launceston.
That is all that is known from found records. I have started constructing a family tree on Ancestry.com.au and Tom doesn't show any leaf suggestions at all.
The daughter Marjorie was born in 1927 in Melbourne and was an only child for the couple, Tom and Elsie. Elsie was married previously and was widowed. Tom was married before and divorced. It is unknown whether Tom married in Tasmania or Melbourne, but assumed he moved to Melbourne after he divorced. It is also unknown whether there were any children from Tom's marriage.
Tom and Elsie never married and Tom was not named on the Marjorie's birth certificate so no information gleaned from that. Marjorie's father was named as Elsie's husband who had previously died. Marjorie lived with Elsie and Tom and was told when she was fifteen years old that Tom was her father and not her step father.
Other snippets of information are:
- Tom may have had a brother called Bob and a sister called Edna
- Tom worked as a bricklayer after he moved to Melbourne
- lived in Brunswick and Carnegie
- died in 1977 in Repat Hospital in Heidelberg.
Searching on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FamilySearch and National Archives has come up with nothing at all other than his WWI records.
Any assistance or direction suggestions would be gratefully appreciated. Marjorie and I have spent many hours searching and finding nothing at all. Marjorie would love to find out something about her father and his family.
kind regards
Patricia
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Hi
Vic bdm online has a marriage in 1918. Ref 2632. It is for Thomas Jno SMITH and Hilda May ROSS.
Trove has newspapers reporting that they divorced and that Mrs Ross (mother of Hilda) informed the Attorney General that the grounds for the divorce were incorrect. The High Court heard and dismissed the appeal.
ADD
The Age, 27 Oct 1925 p.12 has good summary. The original decree will likely date from Nov 1924 and coverage is across many newspapers. One article at least mentioned NO children of that marriage.
Hope that helps, there could of course be several chaps of that name in Melbourne in that era. But I suspect that not many would be bricklayers who were petitioning for divorce on the grounds of the wife's 'misconduct" citing the co-respondent.
JM
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I found the same details as majm as well as the death of Hilda May SMITH in 1977, the same year as Tom.
Parents Alexander Ross and Elizabeth Sheldon.
If they were refused a divorce this would explain why Tom and Elsie were unable to marry.
One of the papers also gives the marriage date as the 27th of April 1918.
The only piece of information that might shine more light on things is the divorce file which can be found in the public records office of Victoria. However it isn't digital and may not give any further details about Tom other then what you can see in the newspaper reports.
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To JM (majm) and stsearcher
Many many thanks for your responses and efforts in searching out this information.
I will definitely research down this road to see if any other bits of information can be gleaned from it.
It certainly does appear to be the information that may give Marjorie more details about her father. From this it does seem that after his WWI effort he moved to Melbourne rather than go back to Lauceston, Tasmania.
I will pass the information on to Marjorie who has been staying in Melbourne for the past few weeks due to the bushfires, but she says when she does get back home she will be looking in the Lucky Strike tin of trinkets that was Toms to see if anything else in there that might yield clues.
thank you once again,
Patricia
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National Archives Australia
Smith Thomas John SERN 1555
POB Launceston TAS
POE Claremont TAS NOK F Smith William
Image 7 of 14......at 27 Jul 1925....324 Nicholson St * Brunswick
Electoral Roll 1925 Brunswick North Bourke Victoria
SMITH Thomas John bricklayer 324 Nicholson Street
SMITH Emily Mary machinist 324 Nicholson Street
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Hi Wivenhoe
Thank you very much for the information.
A bit more detail to add about Tom. The address checks out and matches with Tom's Military records as you have pointed out.
Emily Mary Smith is new information. His wife was Hilda May Smith, but was divorced in 1925.
Emily may possibly be a sister? Marjories mother was Elsie May.
Marjorie born 1927 (daughter of Tom) seems to remember that Tom had a sister (name unknown) who was in the salvation Army.
Thanks again.
Patricia
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Hi
Vic bdm online has a marriage in 1918. Ref 2632. It is for Thomas Jno SMITH and Hilda May ROSS.
JM
Of course purchasing this marriage certificate for about $25 will give you a lot of information about William required for registration of a marriage in Victoria.
It will be a help.
Date
Couple's names
Couple's ages
Couple's birthplaces
Previous status
Couple's occupations
Couple's residences
Fathers' names
Fathers' occupations
Groom's mothers name
Bride's mothers name
Sue
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Hello Sue
Thank you for this information, it would be $25 well spent to find out this information about Tom and his parents.
I was unaware of these details on an Australian marriage certificate as my ancestral paths have been UK and Ireland only.
I am researching for the great grandmother of my grand children (my daughter in laws family) and so Australian content and sites are new to me.
Thanks again
Patricia
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Victoria's BDM documents are as detailed as Scotland's .... better even better than Scotland's.... ;) but ... Tasmania's and South Australia's are as scant as England's.
NSW, Qld and Western Australia BDM detailed but not as detailed as Vic.
JM
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Hi JM
Thanks for that
This marriage certificate then is a MUST!
cheers
Patricia
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Another address from the WW1 record:
Letter to him from Army re a lost medal, dated 28 July, 1928 is addressed to
Mr T J Smith
18 Lydia St
Brunswick.
Also, his discharge was
28 February, 1917 - at Hobart, medically unfit
Thus there is the assumption that he came to Melbourne after that date.
Judith
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Hi Judith
Thank you for highlighting that information.
A timeline for Tom is beginning to fall into place, rather than random bits of information.
cheers
Patricia
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If you look on Googlemap you can easily find 18 Lydia St. I'm finding 324 Nicholson St a bit trickier - there seems to be a 324 Nicholson St EAST Brunswick but when I look on the street view the house shown appears to be no 69. There is also 324 Nicholson St in Carlton which is now a nicely renovated upmarket terrace house.
Nicholson St is a long busy street, running through number of inner Melbourne suburbs and I would think that the numbering of houses, and even of suburb boundaries, may well have changed over time. The Brunswick section of Nicholson St has much modern building among the older houses - small office blocks, show-rooms, apartment blocks etc. I also note a couple of houses in the area which look as though they may have been built in the 1930s or later.
18 Lydia St looks very nice with the touches of white painted bricks, ironwork lace on the porch, and a bit of a pediment.
Judith
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To order the Victorian certificate if you decide to do so.
https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/research-and-family-history/search-your-family-history
Scroll down to the how to instructions.
The uncertified image is the one you should order. $24.50
It will be available for download immediately upon payment.
The information it contains will have been provided by the parties themselves.
Sue
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Thanks Sue,
How good is it to be able to download straight away instead of having to wait for snail mail.
Patricia
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Hi sue
that was easy ordering the certificate and paypal makes it even easier.
Now to take a look and see what it says.
Patricia
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Hi Patricia not sure if this would be your Thomas John Smith in this newspaper article.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/155752375?
There may be court records that may give more details about him.This Thomas John Smith would have been born about 1895 the same age ( so your Thomas reckoned on his army papers) as your Thomas. If its him he may not have been lieing about his age on enlistment.
Johngirl
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New information from the marriage details between Tom and Hilda May Ross,
Tom's occupation is given as a Gardener and his address is 24 Eastbourne Street, Windsor.
Tom's father is William Smith, occupation Driver
Tom's mother is Matilda Cowen.
Hilda's address is given as 387 High St, Prahran and occupation is Domestic duties and she was aged 18.
Patricia
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Hi Patricia
TAS Archives Portal has a Matilda Ann COWEN and William SMITH with a family that does not include Thomas John.
http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=8
Essie
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Hi Johngirl
sorry but I don't know how to copy the reply into my response.
Thank you for that link, that was a surprise to read that it was a court case . . . theft and drunkenness, 50 pounds was a lot of money to be fined in 1925.
Yes, I have come to the conclusion that Tom was born in 1895 and gave the correct birthday on enlistment.
Thanks again, information on Tom is beginning to accumulate
Patricia
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hi Essie
Thanks for that link/info . . . more information to add . . another generation.
The rootchatters are blessing!
thanks
Patricia
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hi Essie
I've just managed to look at the information you sent, Emily Mary was living with Tom on one of the electoral rolls mentioned in an earlier post, it was unknown then whether it was Tom's sister. Marjorie (tom's daughter) had a vague recollection that Tom had a brother called Bob, and in the listing there is a Robert.
I guess Tom wasn't on the list as he wasn't born until 1895 which is 25 years after the first child was born. I can't see what date the document was from.
Patricia
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Many thanks to all rootschatters who have responded to this post. Not knowing much about Australian genealogy research prior to this, I have learned heaps about the family as well about Australian genealogical records with your help.
Marjorie would also like to thank you all as well, and now knows where her ancestors are from.
regards to all
Patricia
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Hi Patricia and Hi Majorie,
One of the many great features of RootsChat is the way strangers can come together without needing to have ever met and to help each other with family history research. Sometimes the enquirer posts a question and never posts a reply to even show if the 'found' info is relevant. Other times, they seem to want to hear only if their ancestor has 'achieved' something positive and out of the ordinary.
And, then there's Majorie's quest, and her heartfelt thanks offered via you in such a grand public way.
Those two magic words that our own parents and grandparents all expected us to use, and which are often forgotten or just tossed around arrive here in your post. But here we can all recognise that they ring so true for you both, so may I say, Thank You Majorie for allowing Patricia to post your enquiry here at RChat which is by far the best family history website ever.
JM
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VIC BDM death
3592/1919 SMITH Matilda Ann parents Unknown / Cowen Thos
died Pran age 72
The Age 15 Mar 1919 p18
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/155220083?
SMITH - The friends of the late Mrs Matilda Ann SMITH........Brighton Cemetery....residence 24 Easrbourne St Windsor......
Who is the mother mentioned, 1925, in the business of the divorce?
I think that Thomas John is born to an older unmarried daughter in this family. His birth was probably not registered, and a baptism record would likely exist....somewhere.
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Hi Wivenhoe
I was beginning to think the same thing as you, that Tom's mother was one of the daughters rather than Matilda Ann Cowen being as Tom's birth details aren't found, as you have mentioned.
Could easily be either Ada b 1876 or Eva b1877 as Tom was born in 1895.
24 Eastbourne St, Windsor is also the address Tom was residing at when he married Hilda in 1918
The mother mentioned in divorce proceedings of 1925 is Mrs Ross, which would be Hilda's mother.
I wonder who else resided at 24 Eastbourne St
Patricia
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Patricia,
I have been following this post with interest, could you tell us the witness names on Tom/ Hilda's marriage certificate, they might be family members
Cass
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Hi Cass
I think the witnesses are
Grant Allen & Henrietta Clinch
Its a bit hard to read but there is a problem with rootschat adding files so I can't upload it
Patricia
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There is a death record in BDM VIC - 10805/1929 for a potential brother.
- Robert Francis SMITH
Death: 1929
Father: William SMITH
Mother: Matilda Ann COHEN
Location: Melbourne East
Age: 45
The age is out by three years from the date listed in LINC Tasmania records but everything else fits.
There is also a possible match on NAA (naa.gov.au) Barcode 60215522
- Robert Francis SMITH
Age: 31
Born: Lilydale TAS (Lilydale is close to Launceston)
Address: East Brunswick Melbourne VIC
Occupation: Bricklayer (Same as his brother)
Another piece to add to your puzzle
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Witness Henrietta Clinch
could be a connection Surname of ROSS turns up again , Maybe i am wrong
Death details VIC BDM for a CLINCH Edward
DEATH CLINCH Edward Robert Lindsay
Mother Henrietta ROSS Father CLINCH Robert
Warburton Malvern Age 58 1971
Cass
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Hi stsearcher
Thanks for that information, it does appear that it was parents and at least some of Tom's siblings that moved from Tasmania to Victoria.
Marjorie thinks that Tom learnt bricklaying from his brother Bob (Robert).
Patricia
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Hi Cass
Are you thinking that Henrietta Clinch married into the Ross family and that is a connection with Hilda May Ross.
How are you connected?
Patricia
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Marjorie lived with Elsie and Tom and was told when she was fifteen years old that Tom was her father and not her step father.
Patricia
I have not been able to locate the couple Tom and Elsie sharing an address on the Victorian Electoral Roll.
Tom is located in the areas you have listed-Carnegie/and Fitzroy. A bricklayer and in later life a munition worker I think.
But his address is not shared by Elsie that I can see (not in the name SMITH anyway)
Sue
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In 1922, Henrietta CLINCH and her husband were livng apart.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165127701
She was without support.
Sue
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However, she apparently remarried and died as
Henrietta DODDY
Age:75
At Chel, Victoria
Alexander ROSS
Elizabeth SHELDON
Year:1969
So she was the aunt EDIT sister of the bride.
Sue
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Hi Sparrett / Sue
I think the reason you didn't find Tom and Elsie at the same address under the name SMITH might be because Elsie was married and widowed prior to meeting Tom.
thank you, the information is filling out
Patricia
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I see, so that does explain things
Unless you are quite certain that the children of Elsie you mention are deceased, you must remove their names so that you comply with the laws regarding privacy and the policy of R'chat about living people
Sue
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Thanks for reminding me about that Sue, its easy to get carried away with all this information. I couldn't say for sure whether living or not, so just in case I have removed them.
Patricia
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Other snippets of information are:
- Tom may have had a brother called Bob and a sister called Edna
We have proved her memory to be correct in that she did have an Uncle Bob living in the area. She also had an Aunty living in the area as well. Named "Ada", close to Edna?
Death Cert Number: 14087/1955 (BDM VIC)
Name: Ada Matilda SMITH
Death: 1955
Location: Cheltenham, VIC
Father: William SMITH
Mother: Matilda Ann COHEN
Birth: Hobart, Tasmania (This fits with the LINC Tas record as we know she was born in Park St, Hobart in 1876)
From this it shows that she didn't marry.
Marjori seems to have a wonderful memory!
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Apologies if I have missed it :-\ but what were Elsie's surnames? As has been suggested she may be using one of those surnames on the electoral rolls.
Judith
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Hi Sue
Yes, Marjorie does have a good memory, as she says, some of these memories happened a long time ago. She has been proven right on the snippets she told me. It was enough to be able to confirm findings.
cheers
Patricia
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Hi Judith
Buldt is the other surname for Elsie
Patricia
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Do you have information re Elsie? The information I can see shows that, unless there is someone else of the same name at around the same time in Victoria, she continued to use the surname Buldt for all of her life.
Death:
Reg: 1955, Victoria, number 12342
Elsie May Buldt, 67
Death Place: Chel, Victoria ( presumably Cheltenham)
Father's name: Mungo Broil
Mother's name: Elizabeth Peel
Probate granted:
Name: Elsie M Buldt
Died 27 Oct 1955, at Cheltenham Home
Occupation: Widow
Grant Date: 7 Dec 1955
Grant: A (Administration)
Marriage:
1911, Victoria, number 1810
Name: Elsie May Beown [Elsie May Brown]
Spouse: Hy Buldt
She doesn't seem to be with Tom on the electoral rolls:
1914
with husband Henry at 89 Napier St, South Melbourne
1917 - no-one else of that surname at that address in 1917 or later
at 66 Clyde St, St Kilda West
1934 - 2 entries
at 42 Clausen St, Fitzroy North
also at 89 Park St, Carlton (also ij 1935)
There are no further entries under that name until -
1949
17 Chestnut St, Oakleigh
1954
address is shown as: M.H.A., Cheltenham North - not sure what these initials stand for but the probate entry suggests it may be some kind of care home, but maybe not.
TROVE has this:
AFTER the expiration of ; fourteen days from the publication hereof application will be made to the Supreme Court of Victoria that : LETTERS of ADMINISTRATION of the estate of ELSIE MAY BULDT, late of Cheltenham Home . In Victoria, widow, deceased, intestate, may be granted to Ethel May Turner, married woman, of 32 Boston av., - East Malvern, being the daughter of
the said deceased.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/71779907
Judith
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Hi Judith
Yes that's right, Elsie continued to use that name, she never married Tom Smith even though she was widowed and she had a child with Tom (born 1927) and they all lived together including the 2 children from her marriage.
Thanks for the information
Patricia
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Hello
I think I can now close this post.
Thank you to all who participated in the research that has demolished the roadblock that was preventing Marjorie from getting to know about her paternal ancestors and where they were from.
This posting has been very fruitful.
kind regards
Patricia
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It's been an interesting search with some twists and turns.
Judith