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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Carmarthenshire => Topic started by: roycymru on Tuesday 14 January 20 18:53 GMT (UK)
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Hello
This is sort of a follow on from 2 other posts, one about Bank Tainewydd/ Tainewydd in Five Roads, Llanelly and the other about the correct surname for John Hanbaus(?), the Illegitimate son of Mary Edmunds of Bank Tainewydd. Looking at these again helped me resolve a conundrum that I have been trying to solve for a long time.
This post is of particular relevance to Dave Davies of Felinfoel who, with me tried to solve the conundrum originally, but who I have lost contact with. So I am hoping he may see this and it may also be of use to others with links to Edmunds of the Five Roads area Llanelly.
David Edmunds (1835/36) was a conundrum as I couldn’t find him in the 1841 and 1851 census. He ‘suddenly” appears in the 1861 census married to a Margaret with 3 children. I say suddenly, as David’s birth year from the 1861-1911 census is consistently 1835/36, Llanelly, but there is no such David in the 1841 or 1851 census for Carmarthenshire. His not being in 1 of the censuses is plausible but missing both seemed very unlikely. However, I think I have finally resolved this
David and His wife Margaret lived for most of their married life at Bank Tainewydd/Tainewydd, Five Roads. Going back through my records I noticed in 1861 also listed at Bank Tainewydd is:
Mary Edmund Head (Unmarr) age 54, Parish Pauper
John Edmund Son (Unmarr) age 21 Coal Miner
In 1851 at Bank Dainewydd is:
Mary Edmund, Head, Widow, 80, Pauper Farm Labourer's wife
Mary Edmund, Dau, Unmarried, 45, Farm Servant
and in 1841 at Taynewydd
are:
Mary Edmunt, 65, Charwoman
Mary Edmunt, 30
Ruth Jones (9)
David Howel (6)
John Hanbaus (2)
I am now convinced Ruth, David and John are all illegitimate children of Mary Edmunt (Edmund) 30. The John listed as Mary’s son in 1861, being John Hanbaus? in 1841, having adopted the surname Edmund in the interim and therefore I think so did David, born as David Howell. Therefore, I think David Howel in 1841 and 1851 is in fact David Edmunds in 1861 and later census.
I think I have found david in the 1851 census, age 16 a Farm Servant at Cwmbach, which is a few doors away from Tainewydd
Addresses David and Margaret lived at are:
1861: Bank Tainewydd
1871: Pantagwenith Fach
1881: Tainewydd
1891: Tainewydd (son Thomas and grandson David Edmund born 1889 living with them)
1901: Tainewydd (son Thomas, daughter Sarah and grandson David Edmund born 1889 living with them)
1911: Tainewydd
Children they had are:
John (1856), Mary (1856), Ann (1860), Ann (1862), Margaret (1865), David (1867), Sarah (1870), Thomas (1872).
From the birth records their later children in the 1911 census, his wife Margaret’s surname is Hugh/Hughes (I think originally Hugh). Plus in the 1911 census they had been married for 55 years, therefore married about 1856. However, I can no record of a David Howell/Edmunds marrying a Margaret Hugh (or any other possibilities) in the GRO records. My gut feeling is that they never officially married, unless someone else can solve this conundrum!
(Just for reference John Hanbaus (later Edmunds) married a Rachel Hughes and lived at Pantygroes, Five Roads).
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From the GRO index, mmn for the births of Sarah in 1869 and Margaret Edmunds is Hugh or Hughes so possible marriage
David Howells dec qtr 1855 Llanelly vol 11a 877 with Margaret Hughes on the same page.
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From the GRO index, mmn for the births of Sarah in 1869 and Margaret Edmunds is Hugh or Hughes so possible marriage
David Howells dec qtr 1855 Llanelly vol 11a 877 with Margaret Hughes on the same page.
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Fantastic! Thanks. How have I not spotted this marriage entry! A fresh pair of eyes always helps! I think there is a high chance this is their marriage. I will order and report back.
Hugh and Hughes seems frequently interchangeable in the census. Margaret was born 1833 and I think it is her at “Graig” Glyn Hamlet with parents Thomas, Mary Hugh and siblings.
Therefore, in theory, I am expecting to see in the marriage entry: no father listed for David and Margaret’s father listed as Thomas
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Hello
Got the marriage record, the quality of the image could be better but it mainly supports my supposition but would be very grateful for any additional thoughts.input.
David Howells and Margaret Hughes married at Rehoboth on 25Dec1855, which is where David Edmunds and Margaret Hughes are buried, so this fits.
David is age 21 and therefore born abt 1834, which fits in with David Howells/Edmunds being born 1835/36 as stated in the census. Also bearing in mind census records are from around April, therefore depending on his actual birth date he could be 1 year older at marriage than in the census.
Margaret is 23, therefore born abt. 1832, which again ties up with a birth date of abt. 1833 which I have for her from census entries. Her father is Thomas Hughes, Coal Miner again which fits in with my theory.
Their addresses in the marriage entry are difficult to work out, so would be grateful for any help on interpreting them. David's address is Five Roads, Cereslau? Mountain? (in the 1851 census I potentially have him at address Cwmbach, Hamlet of Hengoed, so these don't obviously match). Perhaps I have found the wrong one in 1851 or he moved? He also has a father listed: David Howells, Copper Smith? I wasn't expecting a father to be listed as I think David was illegitimate, however, this does not mean to say his father was not known and therefore could be entered on the marriage certificate? I can't obviously find David Howells Copper Smith from the area in 1851 either.
Margaret's address on the marriage entry is even more difficult to work out: Llanelly Ty ????ydd Sylen? LLanelly. I potentially have her at Talclynucha in 1851 but again perhaps I have found the wrong Margaret in 1851 and/or she moved.
As stated above and feedback.different info/ thoughts on the above would be greatly appreciated.
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plenty of time since previous census for them to have moved.
There's a mention here of Corslan Mountain,
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4347790/4347793/30/
or Corslaw?
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4347875/4347877/26/
Think it's Ty ?mynydd Sylen
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plenty of time since previous census for them to have moved.
There's a mention here of Corslan Mountain,
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4347790/4347793/30/
or Corslaw?
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4347875/4347877/26/
Think it's Ty ?mynydd Sylen
Thank you, excellent find for Corslan/Corslaw Mountain, must admit I have never come across this location in the area before. Great guess on the other as well; possibly Ty Mawr? Mynydd Sylen?
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The attached is the only possible David Howells in 1851, with links to the copper trade, I can find in the Carmarthen area but no idea if it is him.
There is a David Howell in the Five Roads area (Hengoed, entry 61) who could be a possible father (he was only a few houses away from David Howells/Edmunds possible mother Mary Edmunds, entry 56) but he is a Tea Merchant?
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plenty of time since previous census for them to have moved.
There's a mention here of Corslan Mountain,
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4347790/4347793/30/
or Corslaw?
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4347875/4347877/26/
Possibly found Corslan/Corslaw as Croslaw in 1841 housing a Tea Merchant
Think it's Ty ?mynydd Sylen
Thank you, excellent find for Corslan/Corslaw Mountain, must admit I have never come across this location in the area before. Great guess on the other as well; possibly Ty Mawr? Mynydd Sylen?
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I found two men by the name of David Howell enumerated as copper man in Llanelly
HO107/1379/4 folio 27 pg 10
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7QG-YSZ
HO107/1379/6 folio 26 pg 2
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7QG-GH8
Looks like it could be Ty Mawr but haven't spotted it on this map yet
https://historicplacenames.rcahmw.gov.uk/placenames/recordedname/f94822af-e848-4f8e-b54a-a7de0f2dea12
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the first letter could be a G on that census entry - Gorslan?
https://historicplacenames.rcahmw.gov.uk/placenames/recordedname/e021568b-b2d3-482c-a425-3343048350d5
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there's a Ty Mawr on this map
https://historicplacenames.rcahmw.gov.uk/placenames/recordedname/ccac7f0e-7ae4-4a20-8e46-2ea9e14a2d07
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I found two men by the name of David Howell enumerated as copper man in Llanelly
HO107/1379/4 folio 27 pg 10
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7QG-YSZ
HO107/1379/6 folio 26 pg 2
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7QG-GH8
Looks like it could be Ty Mawr but haven't spotted it on this map yet
https://historicplacenames.rcahmw.gov.uk/placenames/recordedname/f94822af-e848-4f8e-b54a-a7de0f2dea12
Thanks. The first David Howell corresponds to the one I found in 1851, the second one is actually listed as a Collier. Ty Mawr (Mynydd sylen) listed here and in the map you have found seems a perfect fit.
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The census entry looks like Croslaw to me. Perhaps their pronunciation of Croeslaw. Which is Welsh for Crosshands (about 8 miles from Five Roads).
Fisherman
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Still leaning to the original thought by Osprey that it is Corslan Mountain. It is definitely in the Five Roads area so I think Croeslaw/Cross hands is too far away. I have found some more references to it (ignore the third in the link, it is somewhere else)
https://papuraunewydd.llyfrgell.cymru/search?range%5Bmin%5D=1804&range%5Bmax%5D=1919&query=Corslan
The second entry, if I read correctly, implies it might actually have been some form of illegal public house? Certainly seems to have been a well known meeting place at the time if the local hunt met there and for them to meet at some form of public house would make sense. Perhaps if existed briefly and then had disappeared over time
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One final unexpected bit of information
I thought I would order the death certificate of Mary Edmund. My guess was that the informant would be one of her illegitimate sons John or David. Turns out it was in fact Rachel Treharne of Cwmbach, who is listed as her daughter. This looks to be the suspected illegitimate daughter Ruth Jones mentioned at the beginning of this post. Ruth Jones marrying John Treharne in “Llanelly” in the Dec. Qtr of 1856 and her John and their children living at Cwmbach throughout the censuses. John was born abt. 1834 Llangendeirne, and now have to work out his lineage, unless someone has already come across him before?
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Croeslaw is on the square in Five Roads (now adjoined with Hafod as one house). Ty mawr is further up past Horeb Mill.....a member of my family lived there.AN
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Croeslaw is on the square in Five Roads (now adjoined with Hafod as one house). Ty mawr is further up past Horeb Mill.....a member of my family lived there.AN
Thank you very much for this and the other clarification on location. You can’t beat the power of local knowledge
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Should also add that there is a house on the crossroads on Mynydd Sylen, off Bethel Road and opposite Mount Pleasant Farm.....it was called Croeslaw and was a "ty Unnos" (built in one night on common land and then became freehold), Ystodwen Farm is further up the road where some Edmunds family lived.
Also John Daniel is a signature on the marriage certificate....not many of that name in the area, my gg grandfather being one!