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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: onefortheroad on Saturday 28 December 19 16:48 GMT (UK)
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I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this but no doubt the mods will point me in the right direction if not.
Anyway, my wife and I are planning a 5 day trip to the Somme Battlefield in July 2020 to visit the grave of my Great Uncle on the anniversary of his death in action on the 15th July 1916 on the outskirts of Poziere. He is buried in the Pozieres British Cemetery, Ovillers-la-Boisselle. We have not been to France before and are planning to travel from Folkestone to Calais on the Eurostar, then drive down to the Albert/Amiens area for bed and breakfast for 4 nights.
Has anyone any advice and/or recommendations (without blatant advertising) as to where to stay, what not to do, what to see while we're there, etc.
Any advice will hopefully make our trip so much much successful than simply turning up in France wondering where to go for the best.
Many Thanks,
David.
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We found this book very helpful:
Major and Mrs Holt's Pocket Battlefield Guide to the Somme 1918: "The Big Push": 1 July-17 November 1916; The Kaiser's Offensive: 21 March-25 April 1918; American/Canadian/French Sectors 1918 Paperback – Illustrated
Carol
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http://www.greatwar.co.uk/index.htm
This site has a lot of info on the Somme battlefields which you may find useful.
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Accommodation - this might be useful
https://about-france.com/france-hotel-guide.htm#Hotel_chains
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Hi, Treetotal. Ill have a look for that book, its looks very informative. Thank you.
Good evening, Carom. The guide to the Western Front Battlefields looks promising. Ill have a good read at that. Thanks.
Hiya BumbleB. Plenty to go at there isnt there! Wife will want Luxury Hotel comfort at Budget Hotel price, I just know it. Many thanks.
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I too recommend the Holt’s book ,it comes with a good map and lists numerically the cemeteries and their locations.
Everything is easy to find from the map.
I am not at home at the moment so cannot give ISBN numbers etc but returning on 30th, I will do it then.
There is a very good museum at Poziers and you will find Wilfred Owen’s grave too .
I am sure you will be sad during your visit but you are remembering and that is all any of us can do .
Viktoria.
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Remembering from a year ago you have the war diary of the unit your great uncle served with and the location of his initial burial. Perhaps you could work out an itinerary based on the movements of 8 E Lancs in the year before he was killed (they arrived late July 1915)?
MaxD
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Hello Viktoria. Yes, you and Treetotal both recommended the Holt book so Ive been on Amazon and ordered it together with the Holt battlefield folding map. Got them both with Prime so should be here tomorrow. Thank you.
Hello again, MaxD. Yes, I do have the unit war diary for the period in question. It's pretty graphic in places but, I dare say, normal for the time and situation. I don't however recall it mentioning the place of my great uncle's initial burial. He was one of over 100 casualties in that particular action, on that day (15th July) so he could have been buried in that area I suppose. I copied the diary pages for the month of July but I'll see if I can find the original website to trace the unit further back.
We'll be arriving in France on the Monday (13th) lunchtime and driving down to wherever we're staying. the following day is Bastille Day so not sure what will be open. The Wednesday we'll pay our respects to my Gt.Uncle so Thursday we have the day to visit other sites. Hopefully we'll not come home thinking "if only we'd done this or that". Planning is the key I guess.
Thanks again,
David.
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I thought we had done that last time. His CWGC entry
https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/588472/bedwell,-/
has below it, a tab marked concentration. This has entries for those buried initially elsewhere and recovered afire the war to the cemetery. There is an obvious mistake in his entry. It starts with map sheet 51D - there wasn't one and it is clear from context that it should read 57D X 10 d 6 8 which is not very far away from the cemetery which is at 57 D X 9 b 8 8.
On the map/image at the link below, the cemetery can be seen to centre left above the Rue d'Albert, the initial burial location is in the right lower quadrant of square X 10 plotting on the image in the centre of the triangular field just below the sign D 147 above the words Rue de Pozieres.
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=15&lat=50.0338&lon=2.7234&layers=101465248&right=BingHyb
MaxD
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If you have the time, I strongly advise that you visit the Somme Museum in Albert...you won't regret it...it is an underground tunnel recreating the sounds of the battlefields.
I took a 1917 penny to place on my relative's headstone, I would buy any poppies or a poppy cross and take them with you as they are cheaper than in France and that way you support the RBL. The tourist information in Albert was also very helpful.
https://www.visit-somme.com/musee-somme-1916-albert/albert/pcupic080fs0001p
https://www.ww1cemeteries.com/fra-newfoundland-memorial-park-beaumont-hamel.html
and this:
Carol
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Another venue for you, if you are able to visit, is the Thiepval Memorial to 72,337 who fell and have no known graves - my grandfather was one of them.
However, I have to say that the one thing that stands out, for me, in visiting these memorials and cemeteries is the care and attention that they receive from CWGC staff, all are immaculate. :)
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Wow, MaxD. That's brilliant. So, he was initially buried in the brown field to the right of the Rue de Poziere? Would there be a marker? And the green field to the left of the road with the white marks: are they the site of initial burials too? Soory to hound you, Max but this is remarkable.
By the way, the numbers 6 & 8: is that 6 west and 8 north?
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Treetotal. Thanks, we have the Somme Museum on our 'to do' list.
On our way south to Folkestone on the Sunday, I'd like to make a short stop in Earsham, S.Norfolk, his home village, and collect a small amount of soil to place at the foot of his headstone. A bit of a detour but little effort in comparison.
David
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BumbleB. Yes, looking on the map, Thiepval isn't far from Pozieres and if we have time we'd like to go.
I have a feeling time will run out on us before we've done everything we'd like.
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I know what you mean - we all think we have left sufficient time to do everything - WRONG!!!
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The attachment (courtesy tmapper and NLS maps) zooms in on the field in question, marked by a yellow circle.
There will be no marker and the white marks on the image are farm things. If you look at the 18 E Lancs men buried in Pozieres with the same date of death
https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead/results?regiment=East%2BLancashire%2BRegiment&cemetery=Pozieres%2BBritish%2BCemetery%252c%2BOvillers-La%2BBoisselle&war=1&exactDate=15-07-1916
you will find they are all 8 Battalion and all (I think, I didn't count them all) have a concentration sheet entry showing an initial burial site in the same general area suggesting they were hastily buried by their comrades essentially where they fell and rested there until the Grave Registration Units came along In 1919. There are a number of men who could not be identified, even as to regiment, among whom may be other E Lancs.
MaxD
In square X 10, starting at the bottom left corner of the right bottom quadrant, measure 6 tenths east and 8 tenths north. You cursor should be just about on the little trees that run up the track at the north west edge of the field. On the image you should be in the field. Note that the reference is not a pin point but the bottom left of a 100x100 yard box.
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Many thanks indeed, MaxD. You've been a huge help.
Regards, David.
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Hello, back home so here is the info I promised:-
The book ,Major and MrsHolt’s Battlefield Guide to the Somme.
To order 01226734555
Pen and Sword Books Ltd.
Church St
Barnsley.
South Yorkshire.
S70 2 AS.
The map :- Major and Mrs. Holt’s Battle map of The Somme is also available from the above.
It is a long time since we bought our copies but they are so good I don’t think they will be out of print.but just in case the ISBN number of the book and map is :-
0-85052-414-8
9 780850 524147.
I do recommend them,they will make it all easier and you will do more in the time you are there.
If you can try to get a copy of John Harris’ “Covenant with Death”.
The story of a group of young men ,very similar to the Accrington Pals but I think The Sheffield Pals really.
Based around Beaumont Hammel,on the little river Ancre close to where the Thiepval Memorial is .
A gruelling read but so exact it really does bring the events of the first day of the Somme to life .
No number for it though.
I hope you enjoy your visit, you will feel very moved , but we must keep those men in our minds.It is all we can do.
Let me know if I can be of any more help.
Viktoria.
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They have been ordered Victoria, see reply #7 ;)
Carol
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Oh sorry, back from Suffolk this evening and sent info I’d promised without re reading the previous posts.
They are good aren’t they.
Cheerio.
Viktoria.
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I agree, we really benefitted from having these on both the Somme and Ypres on our trips to the battlefields and created a folder of brochures and leaflets from all the sites we visited during the Centenery of WW1. Attending the "Last Post" at the Menin Gate was an unforgettable experience.
Carol
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We did a “little “display, which grew and grew ,at Church for the 100 th anniversary of the ending of WWI.
The precious artefacts that people entrusted to us for a display open to the public were amazing.
I lent those maps and accompanying books plus lots more.
There were always two people from church there at any one time to be as sure as we could that nothing went missing!
Nothing did.
But the number of people who knew the cemetery their relative was buried in was amazing but they had no idea where they were .
But the maps etcwere up on the wall and we could say “ Oh Alannah Farm,that is N.W. Of Ypres - just here “.
I had two copies so both sides were viewable ,the maps and the lists.
They took references and many were prompted to visit now knowing the exact location.
Yes, The Last Post at the Menin Gate is to say the least moving, it echoes through the arches and lingers ,then silence .
Then once more life resumes its busy pace.
The Wipers Times was produced just under the ramparts to the left as you return to the town to the square before the Cloth Hall.
I am sure you will be in tears .
Little poem which you might like:-
Remembrance.
Gently, so gently
The soft winds blow
Between the white stones,
Row on row,here where we lie.
Softly so softly
The bright sunbeams bless
Enfolding us all
In their warm caress
Here where we lie.
Silently,silently
The snowflakes fall
Covering us gently
With their loving pall,
Here where we lie.
Quietly quietly
The breezes sigh
Whispering our plea
to those who’d pas by,
Stay, tarry, linger a while,
It’s not much to ask
For we who gave all,
And now here we lie.
Our living not easy
Our dying so hard,
Just think of us kindly
When soft winds blow,
The bright sunbeams bless
The snowflakes fall
And soft breezes whisper,
“ Remember them all, wherever they lie. “
Sorry about the phrasing etc , just from memory .
But the winds do blow softly , lovely in a special way.
I am sad now ,but each visit will keep those men alive in memories ,perhaps on behalf of Grandparents etc but remembered.
Viktoria.
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Hi Viktoria.
Sorry you'd gone to all the trouble with that post but yes I had ordered the pocket book and the map. They came yesterday and, must say, I'm impressed.
Thanks for your kind help and the help of all who took the time to reply to my request.
Now just surfing through the B&Bs in Folkestone and Pozieres area before I book the Eurostar.
I'll update with photos when we come back in July.
Thanks again everyone.
David.
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It was no trouble at all.
It is wonderful that people put so much effort in to finding relatives, that was not really possible for quite some years after the war finished.
Imagine the anguish of not being able to visit,and also those whose relatives have no known graves.
Kind regards .
Viktoria.
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Heard a radio programme today, I believe it was from Manchester’s vast Southern Cemetery.
It was on the term “ Dearly Beloved” referring to departed loved ones.
The presenter arrived at a memorial to a young man killed just before WW1
ended.
His mother had the monument erected to her dearly beloved son and her other words were :-
“Into the Diadem of Victory
I place my most precious jewel, My Son.”
It struck me as something special.
The deaths so near the end of the war would be all the harder to bear I can imagine.
Viktoria.
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As you look out over the graves you must ask
WHY.
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Following up on MaxD's advice, what we did when we went over a few years ago, was use the War Diaries to plot out On Google Earth how my relatives moved around during the war, and where possible overlaid trench maps/diagrams from the dairies as well.
Using this info we found the approximate area in a farmers field where my Great Great Uncle was killed whilst attacking High Wood on the 15th July (so would have been part of the same battle as your relative but a different unit), so could place a marker alongside the field as his body was never identified. It also allowed us to go to some of the smaller towns/villages where he stayed, and you find a lot of interesting little places that way.
Richard
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Sorry for the delay in replying.
rsel, yes that's the plan of attack for me too.
Fortunately, my grandfather survived his service on the Western Front, so yesterday, I decided to research his unit (V49 Heavy Trench Mortar Battery, 1/3 West Riding Brigade, 49th Div., R.F.A.).
Working between his service record and The Long Long Trail website, I discovered that he was also at Pozieres at roughly the same time as my Gt.Uncle.
So that's anther thing to research further before July.
Barryd, I can quite well understand that sentiment. But, in the cold light of day, I'd also have to ask: what would Europe and the UK look like today had the Kaiser's German empire been allowed to go unchallenged and subsequently defeated. Still a dreadful loss of life.
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The not so good news:
The war diary for V Heavy Trench Mortar Battery in 49 Div is WO 95/2782/3. Unfortunately the diary for Jan - Nov 1916 is missing!
The not much better news:
The HQ 49 Division General Staff Diary WO 95/2765 is very good with its location reports which include V TMB. However, for the action in July 1916, the artillery of 49 Div and 32 Div were, with others, as was usual for large engagements chopped and changed about under one or other artillery commanders in order to concentrate fire. It thus becomes a question of finding reference to the battery in the diaries of 32 Div HQ and 32 Div HQ Royal Artillery and 49 Div and 49 HQ Royal Artillery during the last days of June and the action in July 1916. It doesn't help that TMBs tended to be afterthoughts a lot of the time and are often referred to simply as "TMBs" in orders without specifying their numbers.
In mid June, half of V 49 was in the cellars of the Café de la Mairie Aveluy preparing to carry ammunition forward, can't find the other half! On 24 Jun the battery is listed as in action with no location given, could be Aveluy! (This out of 32 Div diaries) Need now to go forward in time a bit to see if they can be found in mid July.
More in due course.
MaxD
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Hi MaxD.
The information I gleened was from The Long Long Trail. How accurate that website is, you'll probably know better that me. But it lists the battles V49 HTMB were involved in. That, coupled with his posting dates to the Battery are pretty loose evidence, I must admit.
I'd be content if he had to spend the duration in the cellar of the cafe, thus safeguarding the possibility of my existance😁
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I do hope that in mentioning 32nd Division I haven't given the impression that I was doubting what LLT has to say about 49th Division. If I had LLT in paper form it would be falling to bits, it is my number one on line go-to site, consulted, without exaggeration every day multiple times, I have even in a very small way, contributed to it via its author!
I was being lead by the line in your post So that's another thing to research further before July which I took to mean trying to find where V 49 TMB was on or around 15 July 1916. The battery was indeed engaged in the action around Pozieres and if that general location is enough for you then the absence of a battery war diary is immaterial. However, as the battery was not with 49 Division during July 1916 then finding a more exact location involves finding it under another artillery commander. (on 30 Jun 1916 all the TMBs of 49 Division were attached either to 32 or to 36 Division - http://www.rootschat.com/links/01osg/ ) . Placing artillery units under another division temporarily for a particular operation was and is the absolute norm and that is what is happening here. It is not a permanent move which would show as a transfer in the LLT piece on the division such as the move of 8 East Lancs in its brigade from 37 Division to 34 Division from 6 July to 22 August 1916.
I'd be happy to look more closely unless the knowledge that grandfather was somewhere near Pozieres is good enough for you?
MaxD
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Hi MazD.
No, I never thought you might doubt LLT but it's the first time I've used it so didn't know exactly how useful and accurate it was.
My comment about it being another thing to research before July was more referring to work I need to do before we go to France in July. We're there for 3 full days plus two travelling so I want to put as much preparation into it as possible.
We're hoping to stay in Pozieres so there may be some detailed information available there but, in the meantime, if you come across anything giving a position for V49 HTM on the morning of the 15th of July, that would be gold dust to me.
Regards, David.
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Delighted so to do!
In due course hopefully.
MaxD
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Many thanks, MaxD. You are undoubtedly a gentleman and a scholar.
David.
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As part of the concentration of artillery resources for 1st July and onwards, X/49, Y/49 and V/49 trench mortar batteries (TMBs) were attached to 32 Division with effect 14 Jun 1916. This HQ 32 Division order of19 Jun 1916 both shows where they were billeted and that their role was to help in the movement of ammunition
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60779/43112_2373_0-00000?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return#?imageId=43112_2367_0-00532
The order refers to an earlier one which is not in the record which may have dealt with the other halves of split batteries. It is clear from this and from other relevant records that none of the 32 Divisional artillery’s firing orders, firing programmes or ammunition plans have any mention of the heavy trench mortars. Snippets elsewhere confirm the use of the manpower of some of the TMBs during the preliminary bombardment and the offensive actions from 1 July 1916 on different tasks.
For context, the attack of 37 Division on Pozieres, with the East Lancs, was from the south. 32 Division was coming from due west of Pozieres. The 32 Div artillery massed for the offensive was deployed (reference here is to the map in the earlier post) in squares W 18, W 11, W 12, Q 33, W 12, W 5, W 3 (11 batteries in total) and in W12, W9, W 17 (4 batteries). Heavy artillery and a group of French artillery were also employed. The situation was similar in 29 Division (courtesy of a forum member elsewhere) where the heavy TMBs were used in the preliminary bombardment but not once the offensive had started.
Thus the best one can say about grandfather’s whereabouts is that he was humping ammo or helping with digging work somewhere around Aveluy, perhaps billeted with the half in the cellars of the Café de la Mairie in Rue de l’Eglise (the Mairie is now a school, no sign of the café – Google Earth).
So while I can’t improve much on your first thought that grandfather was in the same area as the East Lancs, hopefully the above zeroes in just a bit closer on his whereabouts in those dark days. You may be able to include Aveluy in your travels.
MaxD
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Good morning, Max.
I spent a while yesterday on the link above and plotting the artillery positions on the map. We've decided to base ourselves in Albert from where we can branch out to Aveluy and Pozieres and the area due south. I have a series of three postcards that my grandfather sent home, showing the Basillica at Albert before the battle and after 15 months of bombardment. It'll be interesting to see it in person. Albert is also handy for the Somme Museum where, who knows, we may pick up some more background to my relatives' time in those horrendous days.
When we return, I'll place an update on this thread.
The effort you've put in is greatly appreciated, Max and I thank you warmly.
Regaards, David.
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An update to this thread dated 5th July 2020.
It won't come as much of a surprise to learn that our trip to the Somme to trace Grandad's and Great Uncle's footsteps has had to be called off for this year due to the Covid19 pandemic.
We are hoping to re-book for the same time next year when, hopefully, things may have returned to some form of normality.
I'll keep you all updated in due course.
Regards, David.
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David
Shame! Looking forward to next year's report then!
MaxD
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David, this must have been so disappointing to have to miss out on this trip. Hopefully, things will be safe enough next year for the trip to go ahead. I too, will look forward to hearing about next years report.
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Thanks, MaxD and River Tyne Lass.
Yes, disappointing but not worth the risk, especially as the Musee de Somme1916 in Albert is still temporarily closed and Thiepval memorial is undergoing restoration.
But we've got all the excitement of the planning and packing to go through again next year so thats some consolation.
I will report back in approx. 1 year.
Regards and stay safe all.
David
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Whenever you do manage to make the visit - enjoy Thiepval, it is a very evocative place.
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An update on our trip to the Somme to pay respects to my Gt.Uncle and try to imagine the hell that he and my Grandad went through:
Well, obviously last year's trip never got off the ground so we re-arranged it for this year.
I suppose no-one will be surprised that this year's trip has met the same fate.
As things stand, Eurotunnel have issued us with a voucher for travel upto June 2023. so we're standing down until July next year.
I hope everyone is staying safe and keeping well and I'll post an update again this time next year.
Regards, David.
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Yet another update on our visit to the Somme battlefield, originally scheduled for July 2020:
At the risk of tempting fate, our visit is now booked for 12th to 17th July this year and our accomodation is in Aveluy, where my grandad was billeted in June 1916, only a couple of miles from the CWGC cemetery at Poziere where my gt.uncle is buried.
Two years ago, my research into my relatives' service on the Somme was brilliantly assisted by the late MaxD, whose passing I only learned of this week. I could not possibly have done without Max's boundless help. I know he gave his experience and assistance to many Rootschatters who will remember him with great fondness as I do.
I will report on our trip in due course.
Regards, David.