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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: wendyandrews on Thursday 19 December 19 19:45 GMT (UK)
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Hello, this may be a silly question but in the birth record indexes on freebmd and also on Durham's online index are the volume and page numbers unique to a single person? If there are two of the same name next to each other with the same vol and page numbers can I safely assume it is an error in the records?
Wendy
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No they are not unique - there are several to a page. Two people of exactly the same details next to each other may be an indexing error - is that what you mean?
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No the vol page numbers can cover a lot of people, a quick example searching for Jones throws up two Ellen jones with the same vol, same page and same reg. district.
If it’s a very uncommon name and identical in every respect then it’s possible it might be an error or a dual registration.
Mike
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Yes, that's exactly what I mean, two Jemima Smiths next to each other with the same details. If it isn't an indexing error, when I bought the cert how would they have decided which one to send?
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Yes, that's exactly what I mean, two Jemima Smiths next to each other with the same details. If it isn't an indexing error, when I bought the cert how would they have decided which one to send?
Do they have exactly the same details including (from GRO Online) mother’s maiden name?
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There's the new GRO birth index to check
SMITH, JEMIMA
Mother's Maiden Surname: —
GRO Reference: 1885 J Quarter in EASINGTON Volume 10A Page 446
SMITH, JEMIMA
Mother's Maiden Surname: MORRIS
GRO Reference: 1885 J Quarter in EASINGTON Volume 10A Page 446
The dash for mother's maiden name suggests illegitimate.
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Baptism, 20 May 1885, Wingate (Jamima here)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JQVK-TNY
Parents Joseph and Eliza
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This is very interesting, when I applied for the birth cert they sent me the one for the illegitimate Jemima, whose mother just happened to have the same name as Joseph's younger sister, so I then assumed that Joseph and Eluza had "adopted" the baby. All makes sense now as I've been puzzling all day as to why my DNA results just received are linking to members of Eliza's family! How do I go about getting the correct cert now, is there a box to fill in on GRO for mothers maiden name?
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This has solved my DNA problem, now I just need to amend my tree (again!)
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You can just select the one with Jemima Smith mother Morris on there and order it as a pdf for £7 or the more expensive certificate.
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Thank you so much for your help, I've just ordered the pdf.
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Good luck!
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In addition to the fact that there were two Jemima Smiths born in same quarter and same district, they were both born on the same day! I forgot to mention that earlier. I know that my Jemima was born on 8th May, and when the wrong birth cert arrived last year for the other Jemima, her birthday was also that date. Without having got my DNA matches I'd have been none the wiser!
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You can just select the one with Jemima Smith mother Morris on there and order it as a pdf for £7 or the more expensive certificate.
And when you see the 'other' certificate, with both mothers at the same address, the situation will become clear :D Is it possible that admission of the missing father meant that a second registration was made as the first could not be amended?
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Andrew, I had wondered that, but really can't see how it would be the case given that I have dna links with someone from the Morris family to go by now, which is the maiden name of Eliza who was married to Joseph Smith, and I know that these were the parents of the correct Jemima Smith. I already have the other cert, no address on it, and mother given as Frances Ann Smith, which coincidentally was the name of Joseph Smiths 16 year old sister (maybe it was this Frances who had a baby on the same day as her sister in law, and called by the same name, Jemima being the name of Joseph and Frances's mother). There's an awful lot of coincidences which led me to jump to conclusions but I don't see how they could be the same baby.
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Unless the father is a Morris? It’s a big coincidence. Jemima is not a particularly common name and within the same family too! It would be interesting to see if the addresses on both certificates were the same.
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There's an awful lot of coincidences which led me to jump to conclusions but I don't see how they could be the same baby.
I don't believe in extreme coincidences - same name, date, everything else; plus missing address. Might this be the child of the 16-year-old, registered once falsely and after reflection correctly? Don't forget that GRO registrations are collected locally for three months and then collated at Head Office, so there is plenty of time for that to happen. I doubt that you might conclude anything from which has been recorded first, but perhaps others here know better ?
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Andrew,
I'm tending to think you may be correct, it does seem awfully strange, and I've just had a very quick look on the 1891 census and can only see one Jemima Smith that fits (need to check deaths now, just in case). It's just weird that I have the Morris DNA but Eliza did have brothers so that would perhaps be a possibility as to who the father could have been, although I'm never really going to know.
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No deaths either!
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It's just weird that I have the Morris DNA but Eliza did have brothers so that would perhaps be a possibility as to who the father could have been, although I'm never really going to know.
Wendy - if/when you see copies of both certs. it will be interesting to see when the registrations were made, and who by. That may be a pointer to something.
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Baptism of Mary Jamima Smith, 1 July 1885, Wingate, Durham
Mother Frances
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J7FR-326
Durham Records Online also has her. Mary Jemima (mother Frances), abode Wingate.
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Now that baptism would seem to indicate it could be two babies born on the same day! Thank you for finding that. Still confusing though as I can't seem to find any sign of this Mary Jemima on any censuses, nor on deaths. Admittedly I'm only looking at Wingate (Easington) as with Smith as a surname it's a bit difficult to look more widely.
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It's twists and turns! But I haven't seen any sign of her later either.
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Unless it is the same baby and there was some sort of tug of war occurring, with two registrations and two baptisms! ;D I hope not though, it's easier to think there are two babies!
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Very interesting story, and I would say they are 2 different babies. Have you confirmed that the Frances Ann Smith mother of illegitimate Jemima was the actual younger sister of Joseph Smith who was the father of the other Jemima?
I have a similar case in 1856 in Evenwood, Durham. 2 George Musgraves born. One registered, one wasn't, one died as an infant and one didn't. Their fathers were brothers. When I sent off for the birth cert, I assumed it was my George, son of Thomas, born 5th March 1856, but the parents names was Robert and Jane Musgrave, when all other records said my George was the son of Thomas and Ann Musgrave.
I found out that there was 2 George's. And both George's were baptised on the same day in April 1856, and Robert's George died on New Years Day 1860 aged 3. So it appears my George was never registered, yet born around the same time as his namesake cousin who was registered and died as a toddler.
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So I'm not the only one this has happened to!
I have actually just double checked my records and think I may have solved part of the muddle. I don't think my Jemima was born on May 5th after all, having looked through a copy of the family bible transcriptions I now think that I must have added in 5th May 1885 to my tree after getting the wrong cert as her birth date isn't recorded in it as I had imagined it was. So I'm hoping that when I get the right one (they say on 31st Dec) that I will have a new birth date for my Jemima. If that is the case then it'll definitely be two separate babies, the puzzling things will be trying to ascertain whether the mother of this second one was Frances Ann Smith, who was the sister of Joseph Smith, father of my Jemima. That seems likely to me as Joseph and Frances's deceased mother was called Jemima. Also, what on earth happened to the second Jemima, or Mary Jemima from her christening record as I can't find any more evidence of her existence.
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You will let us know, won't you?
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I will, definitely, and thank you all for your help and suggestions up until now.
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Quite often I have 2 cousins born close together and if they are both girls or boys, then their fathers who were siblings would give them both the same forename. It has lead to many headaches sorting either of the 2 out.
Looks like that your 2 Jemima's were cousins if it is confirmed that Frances Ann Smith was Joseph's sister.
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Well, the cert has come already, and now I'm even more confused than before. So the cert I already had was numbered 21, 5th May 1885, no address given, just Wingate R. S. D, Jemima Smith, mother:Frances Ann Smith, no father named, registered on 2nd June 1885, informant F. A. Smith, mother.
This new one is numbered 20, born 5th May 1885, Wingate R. S. D, Jemima Smith, mother:Eliza Smith formerly Morris, father Joseph Smith, coal miner, dated 2nd June 1885. Same registrar on both.
What on earth can I deduce from this??
Also of note is that I share 115cM of DNA with a cousin related through Eliza Morris's brother, and my mum 188cM, just to give you all the facts.
Thoughts welcomed 😁
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P. S. Informant on second. Eliza Smith, mother
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Eliza Morris and Joseph Smith had a daughter called Jemima born 5 May 1885.
Unmarried Frances Smith had a daughter on the same day, and called her Jemima as well.
Frances and Joseph are brother/sister or cousins perhaps?
The parents of both daughters went to register the babies together, so one is number 20 in the register and the other is number 21.
Just an initial thought with the possibility of having missed some previous points mentioned in the thread (as I did not re-read it). :)
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What on earth can I deduce from this??
Also of note is that I share 115cM of DNA with a cousin related through Eliza Morris's brother, and my mum 188cM, just to give you all the facts.
Thoughts welcomed 😁
Well, it does look like a very unlikely coincidence of name and date, there are too many differences for it to be two versions of the same birth. You may just have to forget about being descended from an unknown father :(
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Andrew, that's what I was hoping to hear, it's preferable for it to be two different babies. Is just odd that I can find no furthur trace of the 'wrong' Jemima. I am inclined to think that the wrong one is still related to me through Frances, Joseph's sister.
Merry Christmas.
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Unless it is the same baby and there was some sort of tug of war occurring, with two registrations and two baptisms! ;D I hope not though, it's easier to think there are two babies!
Just to illustrate the improbability of the two-babies scenario: there were 4 Jemima Smiths registered in England & Wales in the whole of 1885, so the chance of two of them appearing on the same day (1 in 365) in just one part of the same district (how many? - 1000?) is approaching one in a million.
Happy Christmas to all too .... ;)
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It's possible that Frances Ann Smith went on to marry, and her Jemima was brought up using her (step)father's surname, and so disappears from obvious sight.
I have such a scenario in my own tree. My great grandfather reverted to his birth surname when he married; his brother stuck with the stepfather's surname.
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A double birth in the family on the same day, maybe they wanted to celebrate so chose Jemima for both girls. I would think it is highly likely Joseph was Frances' older brother.
As I said I have 2 namesake male cousins born in the same village at around the same time, one was registered and one wasn't, one died as a infant and one lived. In 1856 it was the onus on the registrar and his deputies to collect info on new births, yet one of the namesake cousins was not registered. The registrar must have been having a bad day or something as he missed one of the births. Both cousins were baptised in April 1856 on the same day in Evwnwood, Co Durham.