RootsChat.Com

Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: landvaettir on Saturday 20 August 05 07:14 BST (UK)

Title: Need help with a Welsh placename..
Post by: landvaettir on Saturday 20 August 05 07:14 BST (UK)
Hi,

Can someone help me with this placename? It is the place of birth listed on a birth certificate in 1884. 

Tyn-y-Celyn, Llanfair, R.S.D.

Where is this? Which County is it in? Does Tyn-y-Celyn mean anything in welsh? And what does RSD stand for? Radnorshire?

Googling around it seems that Tyn-y-Celyn can be the name of a farms or houses, what does it mean in English?

Thanks.  :)

Title: Re: Need help with a Welsh placename..
Post by: Emjaybee on Saturday 20 August 05 07:22 BST (UK)
Tyn y Celyn

Close to holly?

http://www.cs.cf.ac.uk/fun/welsh/LexiconForms.html

Try this link

Mike
Title: Re: Need help with a Welsh placename..
Post by: Emjaybee on Saturday 20 August 05 07:24 BST (UK)
llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogochuchaf.org.uk (http://llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogochuchaf.org.uk)


LLanfair longest name for a village ever!
Title: Re: Need help with a Welsh placename..
Post by: Hackstaple on Saturday 20 August 05 07:31 BST (UK)
RSD is Rural Sub District. This Llanfair is in old Denbighshire. There is a village of Tyn y Celyn near Ruthin 8)
Title: Re: Need help with a Welsh placename..
Post by: Hackstaple on Saturday 20 August 05 07:32 BST (UK)
Where does the "uchaf" on the end come from?
Title: Re: Need help with a Welsh placename..
Post by: Berlin-Bob on Saturday 20 August 05 07:37 BST (UK)
Hackstaple,

click on the link !

All will be revealed .....

(including how to pronounce it  ;D )
Title: Re: Need help with a Welsh placename..
Post by: Hackstaple on Saturday 20 August 05 07:39 BST (UK)
That is cheating - I have been able to spell snd pronounce the full name of Lllanfair since I was 7. I have never heard of  this suffix until today :P
Title: Re: Need help with a Welsh placename..
Post by: Berlin-Bob on Saturday 20 August 05 07:42 BST (UK)
Well, they did say they wanted to pad out the domain-name.

The longest domain-name in the world wins a banana - or something   :o
Title: Re: Need help with a Welsh placename..
Post by: Hackstaple on Saturday 20 August 05 08:55 BST (UK)
Bob - an amazing statistic is that as I  was reading about the prize for a banananana village I saw we both had the same number of postings! But now I have one more - like adding "uchaf". ;D
Title: Re: Need help with a Welsh placename..
Post by: Llwyd on Saturday 20 August 05 19:43 BST (UK)
Hi there,

Due to the vagaries of the Welsh language I think you will find that Tyn y Celyn can be translated two ways.

1.Close or near the holly.
2.House in the holly.

It all depends on how it is written.In the first instance it is Tyn Y Celyn.In the second instance it is Ty yn Y Celyn,but in Welsh cannot have two Y's together and it is written Ty'n Y Celyn.Then laziness sets in and it becomes Tyn Y Celyn or Tyn Celyn or even Tyncelyn.So take your pick.

It is difficult to say where Llanfair is.It is commonly used as a prefix to other words and means Mary's Church. It could be Llanfair Dyffryn Clwyd,which translates to Marys Church In The Valley Of The Clwyd(river),Denbighshire.Or it could Llanfair Dyffryn Ceiriog,Denbighshire----same as above but The Ceiriog(river).It could even be a number of other Llanfairs--just Google the name Llanfair and you will see what I mean.

Bothy of these place names, just to make things more awkward, shorten to Llanfair DC.

As for Tyn Y Celyn being a village, I think Hack is mistaken. I don't know of one with that name.There is, however, a village called Pentre Celyn(Holly Village) which is near to Llanfair Dyffryn Clwyd.

I hope this is of some use to you.Best of luck in your research.
 :) :) :)
Title: Re: Need help with a Welsh placename..
Post by: landvaettir on Saturday 20 August 05 20:57 BST (UK)
Thanks for all the information.  ;D

Now i really wish i could read Welsh..

Yeah, i've googled around for Llanfair and coudn't make much sense of where it was.. But somewhere in the Ruthin area would make the most sense to me, because the rest of the family came from a couple kilometres around there and then eventually settled down in Ruthin.
Title: Re: Need help with a Welsh placename..
Post by: davierj on Saturday 20 August 05 21:08 BST (UK)
Hey Llwyd,, I think you've got it with Ty'n y Celyn, house in the holly.  Hope my apostrophes are all OK in English and Welsh  ;D

What's all this adding 'uchaf' (highest) to the already  made up name of LlanfairPG?

Cheers (iechyd da) Dave (Dewi ai Dafydd)
Title: Re: Need help with a Welsh placename..
Post by: Llwyd on Friday 26 August 05 15:17 BST (UK)
Nothing to do with me Dave. However, it keeps the Sais interested and tongue tied.
Title: Re: Need help with a Welsh placename..
Post by: dmjones on Monday 02 January 06 19:33 GMT (UK)
It could be Tyn y Celyn, a farm about 1 mile NE of Llanfair DC (Dyffryn Clwyd) near Ruthin. The farm is on a B road which runs south approximately parallel with the A525 about a mile to the east and links Llanbedr to Llysfasi along the base of the Clwydian mountains.
The farm is just a short distance from the farm where I was born - Tyn y Caeau (house in the fields). My family have farmed in that area for generations so I would be interested to know if there are any family connections.
Regards
David M Jones
Title: Re: Need help with a Welsh placename..
Post by: landvaettir on Tuesday 03 January 06 04:03 GMT (UK)
It could be Tyn y Celyn, a farm about 1 mile NE of Llanfair DC (Dyffryn Clwyd) near Ruthin. The farm is on a B road which runs south approximately parallel with the A525 about a mile to the east and links Llanbedr to Llysfasi along the base of the Clwydian mountains.
The farm is just a short distance from the farm where I was born - Tyn y Caeau (house in the fields). My family have farmed in that area for generations so I would be interested to know if there are any family connections.
Regards
David M Jones

Hi. I hope there's a connection somewhere.
Searching on google i found a couple things on the bbc about  a Tyn y Celyn farm near Clocaenog, near Ruthin.  About how it was auctioned off for £2.7m a couple years ago, and how the last owner was a Jones. Is this the same house?

Mary Diana Jones was born in 1884 at Tyn-y-Celyn. The certificate listed her mother as Anne Jones (Farmer's daughter) but not the father's name (illegitimate). Anne Jones later married Abel Davies.

And of Anne's parents and siblings, i've got from the census':

father -  Evan Jones - b: abt.1841-1843 Bryneglwys, Denbighshire, Wales
mother - Anne -- - b: abt.1840-1844 Bryneglwys, Denbighshire, Wales
dau - Anne Jones - b: abt.1864 Bryneglwys, Denbighshire, Wales
son - Hugh Thomas Jones - b: abt.1865 Bryneglwys, Denbighshire, Wales
son - Jane Elizabeth Jones - b: abt.1867 Bryneglwys, Denbighshire, Wales
son - Robert E. Jones - b: abt.1874 Corwen, Merionethshire, Wales

Mary Diana Jones married John Edwards of Ruthin in 1911, and raised her family there (including my Grandma). I don't know the names of Grandma's Jones cousins. Do you know if there is a connection? Or know how i can find out more information?

Title: Re: Need help with a Welsh placename..
Post by: landvaettir on Wednesday 04 January 06 02:41 GMT (UK)
I guess i was completely off on the Tyn y Celyn farm near Clocaenog.

This should be the one where Mary Diana Jones was born.
Title: Re: Need help with a Welsh placename..
Post by: dmjones on Thursday 05 January 06 14:05 GMT (UK)
You said the village was Llanfair so this will probably be the right Tyn y Celyn.
You Grandma would be about the same age as my Mum and Dad (no longer alive) and they would have probably known of your family, also my Aunt Mary was born at Cae Coch the neighbouring farm south west of Tyn y Celyn.
Is your Grandma still alive or can you give any names of relations from Ruthin (locations would help) I and my wife may even know some of them ourselves (from school, I was born 1944) my brother now lives just near by at Llanrhydd farm and you can see Tyn y Celyn from his house.
David
Title: Re: Need help with a Welsh placename..
Post by: landvaettir on Friday 06 January 06 03:54 GMT (UK)
My Grandma is still alive but i don't think she can remember relations other than her brothers and sisters. I'll send you a PM with those and their children who you might know of.
She grew up in a townhouse, near the edge of Ruthin, called Cobden Cottage, i think on Park Lane (or Street).
Title: Re: Need help with a Welsh placename..
Post by: Peterej on Friday 06 January 06 13:51 GMT (UK)
There is a Park Road in Ruthin and last time I was there (about 2 years ago) most of the terraced (town) houses were still around. A phone call to Denbighshire County council or the archives might confirm if Cobden Cottage is still there.

Peterej
Title: Re: Need help with a Welsh placename..
Post by: Llosgi Calch on Wednesday 25 January 06 16:49 GMT (UK)
At last!!!!
A thread on Llanfair DC! :o

I've sent a PM to DM Jones, to see if he can help me out at all with any info regarding my ancestror's..... They were the Davies' of Gareg Bach.

As Im sure is a common problem with many others -- going back in time is sometimes less of a problem than actually trying to come forward in time from 1901. Sometimes you do literally need a 'man on the ground', to help with this.