RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: odysseyov on Sunday 08 December 19 00:03 GMT (UK)
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Maybe he wasn't born with that name but he had a 20 acre gold-mining lease from the Queen (Victoria) dated 12 Feb 1884 near Wellington in NSW; he leased and ran the Corporation Baths in Sydney in 1887; he had a business premises destroyed by fire in Bodangora, near Wellington in January 1903 (nothing to suggest it was his business, just his premises) and died at his residence 69 Brown Street, Paddington, on 30th March 1904; his given age at that time is indecipherable but is either 73 or 78. His surname suggests he was Irish but I have been unable to so much as find his death certificate. If anyone can help find this elusive man, I offer my grateful thanks in advance, :D
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Insolvent in Melbourne 1862
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244225671?searchTerm=Edward%20Townsend%20foley%20&searchLimits=
Death? On the NSW BDM site
FOLEY EDWARD T 2672/1904 72 YRS PADDINGTONPADDINGTON
No parents in the index
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Funeral to Waverley Cemetery as per SMH 31 March 1904
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14610312
JM
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Possibly at Rocky River 1858
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/229600204?searchTerm=Edward%20Townsend%20foley%20&searchLimits=
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Gold Mining around Wellington in 1884
The usual lease was for 20 acres, and usually allowed up to 3 men to be employed. There will be a number for the lease. Likely it will be around Sugarloaf Hill, in the parish of Galwadgere, in the County of Wellington.
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/gold-mining-guide
https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/26739006?selectedversion=NBD41328848 map
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/image/nrs13886%5Bx772%5D_a110_000016 sketch from Surveyor General sketch book.
ADD, oops, not at Sugarloaf Hill, but at Mookerawa Creek ::) ::)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13580582 SMH 29 Jan 1885.
JM
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There is a marriage Victoria 1859
To Mary Elizabeth FENBY
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Insolvent in Melbourne 1862
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244225671?searchTerm=Edward%20Townsend%20foley%20&searchLimits=
I note this man was a coach agent.
There are very numerous newspaper advertisement placed by Cobb and Co. coach agent E T FOLEY.
He was at Ballarat.Vic.
This is an early one in 1857
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/66042846
Sue
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Occupation on burial is Civil Servant
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There is a marriage Victoria 1859
To Mary Elizabeth FENBY
If this were my ancestor, I would buy the digitised image, it should give first hand info about his age, place of birth, and his parentage too. Vic BDMs are very detailed
JM
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Date of birth is in Civil service lists
15 August 1831 He was a messenger , appointed 2 dec 1890 on a salary of £117/10-
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Naturalised 22 Oct 1861
Age 30
Coach Agent of Ballarat
Born New York State, USA
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Mary Elizabeth FENBY had had 2 children before the marriage to Edward.FENBY,
FENBY, Joseph Alexander
Mother Mary Elizabeth FENBY
Father -
At Richmond
1855/3089
FENBY, Alexander George
Mother Mary Elizabeth FENBY
Father -
At Ballarat
1856/8228
Sue
ADDING,
The death of Joseph
FENBY, Joseph Alexander.
Father-
Mother Mary Elizabeth FENBY
Aged 2 M
At Richmond
1855/2465
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1891
3 males and 3 females in household
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-896L-YH8D?i=4&cc=2317858&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQKKQ-6KJ7
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Hi Mackha and Majam and Sparrett,
Thank you for all the help; missed the Waverley Cemetery notice on Trove but found the Death Cert entry at BDM (site had been unavailable here for two days :-[). I'm actually trying to find details of someone I think lived with him or in his premises in 1882 - I have the rate assessment evidence. Not much point looking for his birth and parentage unless I can establish a direct connection with him - and I'm not sure there is one :D. Sparrett, is it possible to find details of his premises at 20 Exeter Place, off Elizabeth Street, 1882?
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Funeral to Waverley Cemetery as per SMH 31 March 1904
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14610312
JM
The funeral is on page 12: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article14610148
I checked the headstone disc. He isn't on it, but there are quite a few other Foley there.
I'm actually trying to find details of someone I think lived with him or in his premises in 1882
Who is it you are looking for?
Jamjar
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He is in this tree, scroll near to bottom:
https://www.searle-ons.com/townsend/p74.htm
Jamjar
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Sept 1882
Fined for filthy premises at 20 Exeter place
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13524931?searchTerm=%2220%20Exeter%20place%22&searchLimits=
1880 a man, H F Schmidt, died there and it is described as a residence
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13460727?searchTerm=%2220%20Exeter%20place%22&searchLimits=
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There is another one as per tree I posted:
Edward Townsend Foley was born circa 1850.
Marriage*: He married Marie Nicholina Rennan circa 1870
Jamjar
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There is another one as per tree I posted:
Edward Townsend Foley was born circa 1850.
Marriage*: He married Marie Nicholina Rennan circa 1870
Jamjar
I wonder if that is same man with dob incorrect, as in 1905 directory there is Rennan H T Foley living at 69 Brown street.
H = Hugo, T = Townsend
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There is another one as per tree I posted:
Edward Townsend Foley was born circa 1850.
Marriage*: He married Marie Nicholina Rennan circa 1870
Jamjar
I wonder if that is same man with dob incorrect, as in 1905 directory there is Rennan H T Foley living at 69 Brown street.
H = Hugo, T = Townsend
It's the 1850 one:
Deaths: 14763/1919 FOLEY Marie N mother DOROTHEA S BALMAIN NORTH
16238/1923 FOLEY Rennan H T parents EDWARD T and MARIE N DRUMMOYNE
19262/1970 FOLEY Grace Matilda parents EDWARDand MARIE NICHOLINA ST LEONARDS
At Field of Mars Cemetery:
FOLEY N MARIA
Church of England, Section DD, 11
FOLEY H T RENNAR
FOLEY M M DOROTHY (This is his daughter who died 1922)
Church of England, Section DD, 136
Jamjar
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But the civil service one was clearly born 1831
And his burial is def from 69 Brown street
And Rennan Foley is at 69 Brown street the following year
And Rennan was in civil service too as a junior clerk started October 1890. He probably got his father the job as a messenger later the same year.
So did Edward Townsend Foley marry twice. What is the evidence for the 1850 birth date?
They have the other birth date incorrect.
OR. They could be father and son I suppose
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But the civil service one was clearly born 1831
And his burial is def from 69 Brown street
And Rennan Foley is at 69 Brown street the following year
And Rennan was in civil service too as a junior clerk started October 1890. He probably got his father the job as a messenger later the same year.
So did Edward Townsend Foley marry twice. What is the evidence for the 1850 birth date?
They have the other birth date incorrect.
OR. They could be father and son I suppose
May I offer some excellent resources, free to search, easily found live links at our RChat NSW resources board :
I am of course referring to the City of Sydney which has an excellent Archives, and many of their records are available online, so no need to sign in or pay a subscription.
Sands Directories are mentioned at RChat’s NSW Resources Board here :
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.msg5267800#msg5267800
Assessment Books are mentioned at RChat’s NSW Resources Board here https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=374835.msg2482223#msg2482223
Here is link to NSW State Library’s mention of Sands Directories https://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/blogs/sands-directory-completely-digitised-city-sydney-archives
Add : here is direct link to City of Sydney Archives :
https://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/history/archives
JM
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Hi Mckha489 and Jamjar,
The person I am looking for is a Mary who was definitely living at 20 Exeter place, Off Elizabeth Street Sydney - rate assessments show the property was rented by Edward Foley - in 1882. She had an illegitimate child in 1882 who died at 4 mths from congenital syphillis - had been separated from her husband for some 4 years and does not appear anywhere under her husband's name after the separation. She may or may not have had some connection with the Edward Foleys you mention and I think they probably were father and son ...???
Majm I tried Sands Directories - But I will try again. Also have queries in to nsw records. Any way of checking the electoral rolls for 1882? All help, conjecture and suggestions gratefully received and faithfully followed ...
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Best place to get help with the Electoral Rolls for 1880s is via the NSW State Library Ask a Librarian, my hardcopy set are with one of my ancient rellies up in New England district of NSW, and they are involved in sorting some of the paperwork for the many of those who are affected by drought at the moment.
https://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/research-and-collections/ask-librarian
Ummmm... I will check through Sands again too. When you have address it can sometimes be sensible to look through the Suburban sets rather than the Alphabetical by surname sets. All are there at City of Sydney versions....
JM
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Sands Suburban looking for 69 Brown St Paddington.
Not yet up to that number in the 1894 Sands…
Suburban 1895 (it’s part 4)
Aghaaaaa
Brown St West side
……
63 PARKER Samuel
65 FOLEY E Townsend
67 LLOYD C F W ‘Benton’
69 BROWN A H ‘Jesmont’
And then Glenview Street
So in 1894 (closing date for Sands was the October of the year before publications) and at 65 Brown St, E Townsend FOLEY.
JM
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Hi, Majm,
I've found the alpha entries for Foleys in Sands 1882
Foley, Brothers (Bartholomew Foley, Stephen Foley), prodnco mer-chants, 113,115 Sussex st Foley, Dennis A., Farramatta old rd, Glebe Foley, E. T., lessee, Outer Domain Foley, John, Hutchinson st, St. Poters Foley, John, 28 Edward st Foley, John, quarrymon, Bclnioro st, Balmain Foley, J no., gardener, North st, Leich-hardt Foley, John, Albemarle st, Newtown Foley, John J., 171 Cumberland st Foley, L.,Foley's hotel, Hi) York st Foley, Mrs. Mary, Forest st, Glebe For Foloy, M., waterman, 0 Carahor lano Foley, Patrick, Harris st Foley, Kobcrt W., A'ational hotel, 18 Bridge st Foley, Stephen, polico sergeant, 18 Railway placo Foley, William, boilermaker, Georgo st, Waterloo ---nary an Edward amongst them. 20 Exeter place is shown as page 45 - but I can't find page 45 and don't know what it would tell me if it did. I'll try the ask a librarian link ... ;)
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City of Sydney Assessments 1882 has several entries for Edward FOLEY. I wonder though if any or all are actually E Townsend FOLEY.
Anyway
20 Exeter Place, the tenant is Edward FOLEY as that is the person being rated (yes, back in that era, the tenant paid the rates direct to council rather than as some mysterious fee included in the weekly rent from the landlord). The owner or landlord was William FLETCHER, it was a house (one of quite a few that Wm FLETCHER was collecting rent from). It was a brick house, shingled roof, two floors, 3 rooms and valued at £26 p.a. for rates purposes.
JM
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Hi Majm - so E. T Foley was in Brown Street in 1894 but what connection did he have with 20 Exeter place in 1882 - and Edward Foley who was fined L3 plus costs for keeping filthy premises at around sometime around then? (I lost the newspaper reference :'( but it was smh).
I too wonder about the relationship with E.T and Edward Foley??? The only other Foley of that era I found was someone in Qld.
I did have all the info about landlord/tenant but thanks for the extras about the building.
PS Have just put in a request to Ask a librarian for where to obtain info on Electoral Rolls; only mails could vote but there may be other rabbits to chase up burrows
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Right,
E Townsend FOLEY would likely be known as Townsend rather than Edward. :)
In the 1880s, that Exeter Place section was a 'red light' district.
I typed up the thingy in case the others were striving to :)
Sands directories 1882 ... I will get onto that now :)
JM
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But first, I will check the 1870s electoral rolls, I have one set here, shhhh .... my husband is a treasure.
JM
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In the 1880s, that Exeter Place section was a 'red light' district.
This might be the only connection :( between Edward and a birth with congenital syphilis
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NSW ER 1878 PADDINGTON
No listing for FENBY or similar
William FOLEY, leasehold, George St Waterloo. No others by that surname
NSW ER 1878 EAST SYDNEY
FOLEY:
John, household, 49 Campbell St
Lawrence, household, Little Bloomfield St
Thomas S, 358 Elizabeth St
358 Elizabeth Street, that is likely to be down ‘that end’ of Elizabeth St. (near where Central Railway Station is, the park at the northern end of the country platforms is ‘Belmore Park’, Elizabeth Street was the street on the eastern boundary of that park until the Electric trains encroached.
So the :) red light connection : soliciting in Belmore Park, touting etc and walk to Exeter Place ...
JM
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Keep in mind that there are two E Ts in Sydney at the same time:
Two births:
2029/1880 FOLEY GRACE MATILDA parents EDWARD T MARIE N SYDNEY
571/1886 FOLEY CECILIA M parents EDWARD T and MARIE N SYDNEY
I haven't found a suitable death for this second Edward Townsend.
Jamjar
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haven't found a suitable death for this second Edward Townsend.
And what about a birth?
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haven't found a suitable death for this second Edward Townsend.
And what about a birth?
No, nor the marriage for the couple, or birth of some of the children mentioned on that tree. I did find a son of the couple deceased in QLD, as per the tree.
Jamjar
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http://cdn.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/history/archives/sands/1880-1889/1880-part4.pdf
This should give you Sands 1880 part 4
each part is a multipage pdf, numbered within each pdf as page numbers....
and of course, Sands directories themselves had their own page number, so scroll through to the pdf page numbered 47 of 61. It should bring you to the Sands page 418.
Look at all those with the surname FOLEY ... none as Edward nor as Townsend, but there's a Mrs Mary FOLEY out at Glebe... :)
JM
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In the 1880s, that Exeter Place section was a 'red light' district.
This might be the only connection :( between Edward and a birth with congenital syphilis
Yes, exactly, which is why I'm anxious to discover who else was in the house at 20 exeter place.
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http://cdn.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/history/archives/sands/1880-1889/1880-part1.pdf
This should bring up part 1 of 1880.
This time I was looking for Exeter Place. It is at page 33 of that pdf and that corresponds with Sands page no, 67.
20 Exeter Place,. occupant listed as Frederick SCHMIDT.... that's a surname that rings bells...
JM
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20 Exeter Place in 1882 Sands .... ;D it was vacant...
http://cdn.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/history/archives/sands/1880-1889/1882-part1.pdf and at Sands page 46 and pdf page 35
So in October 1881 the place was vacant... ;)
JM
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A daughter of Maria and Edward, Bertha, marries in 1903 and father is alive, 1st column:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article14560240
Jamjar
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:) 1882 Sands part 5
http://cdn.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/history/archives/sands/1880-1889/1882-part5.pdf pdf page 19, Sands page 442
E T FOLEY lessee, Outer Domain.
loads of others with that surname, none at 20 Exeter Place. There's Police Sergeant Stephen FOLEY at 18 Railway Place .... yes, that's down that end of the CBD too. :)
(I have one of my NSW lines focused on George Street West in that era.... so that's the street that starts down The Rocks, and goes all the way to Parramatta .... Lower George St, then George St, then George St West, then Broadway, then Parramatta Street, etc .... ie the 'main' street of Sydney., that ancestor was excellent at hoarding family papers ... ::) ::) ::) )
JM
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A daughter of Maria and Edward, Bertha, marries in 1903 and father is alive, 1st column:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article14560240
Jamjar
Great find there, :) more looking up .... I have to pause, sorry. JM
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20 Exeter Place in 1882 Sands .... ;D it was vacant...
http://cdn.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/history/archives/sands/1880-1889/1882-part1.pdf and at Sands page 46 and pdf page 35
So in October 1881 the place was vacant... ;)
JM
Birth/Death Certificate for infant daughter of Mary states 20 Exeter Place off Elizabeth Street and is dated 5Nov/3Dec 1882, respectively
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who were the witnesses ... midwife etc section of the bdm :) that might give me some clues
JM
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who were the witnesses ... midwife etc section of the bdm :) that might give me some clues
JM
Witness to Birth, Mrs Megan, Witness to burial at Necropolis (???) Alfred Hill and Anthony (?) Booth
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Rennan's death notice, 1923, has father deceased, first column:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article16115975
Jamjar
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Sands 1883 :D ie as at end of October 1882
20 Exeter Place, Edward FOLEY ... I carefully note NO mention of Townsend in his name.
http://cdn.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/history/archives/sands/1880-1889/1883-part2.pdf so page 51 of that pdf, and page 189 of the Sands directory.
off to see if I can figure Mrs MEGAN :)
JM
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Sands 1883 :D ie as at end of October 1882
20 Exeter Place, Edward FOLEY ... I carefully note NO mention of Townsend in his name.
http://cdn.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/history/archives/sands/1880-1889/1883-part2.pdf so page 51 of that pdf, and page 189 of the Sands directory.
off to see if I can figure Mrs MEGAN :)
JM
The lack of a Townsend has worried me for several years, JM - but I'm really desperate to work the mystery out ...
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deleted. Talking through a hole in my head
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Without that Townsend there, it is a dashed line, waiting waiting waiting.
Mrs Megan ... well the informant on a birth certificate gives that info verbally in that era, and the clerk simply records it. And I cannot find her at first search. I am getting eye strain, I will look later today or in the morning. Sorry,
But the info on the d.c. is given by the funeral director, so likely they were nominated by the funeral director.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13524931 Edward FOLEY, not E Townsend FOLEY. SMH 16 Sept 1882
JM
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Maria's death notice, 1919, states 'at her residence'. So separated, divorced, he deceased. I am beginning to think there was only one Edward Townsend.1st column:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article28095854
Jamjar
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deleted. Talking through a hole in my head
No, you are not, it ought to be against RChat rules to even consider such twaddle. ;D :P
JM
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Maria's death notice, 1919, states 'at her residence'. So separated, divorced, he deceased. I am beginning to think there was only one Edward Townsend.1st column:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article28095854
Jamjar
Knew you would come round to my way of thinking ;D :D
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I have tried another tack -
Knowing that Mary had separated from her husband and that the infant died of syphillis; and knowing that Mary would be infected herself and that syphillis could lead to madness, I tried the Newington Asyllum. A Mary of the same age shows up there - but mostly ages are not shown and there are any number of Marys - she didn't use her married name at all after the separation except for the birth/death Certificates. So if I could find out who were the others domiciled at 20 Exeter place at the same time I might be able to find a connection somewhere - she would have had to be known as a Miss or Mrs something - she was only 33 in 1882
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What are the possible surnames you have?
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Maria's death notice, 1919, states 'at her residence'. So separated, divorced, he deceased. I am beginning to think there was only one Edward Townsend.1st column:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article28095854
Jamjar
Knew you would come round to my way of thinking ;D :D
Yes, just needed to go through the never ending process of elimination. ;D ;D ;D
So, if this is the case, what happened to the Mary he married in VIC? It's possible he simply lived with Maria.
The daughter Grace Matilda never married. Her death notice, 1970, first page:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=lL5f5cZgq8MC&dat=19700528&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
Jamjar
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In my experience, when researching ... well .... Any woman in Sydney in that era who may have had (even if no longer had) a husband, was known as Mrs never as Miss and with a surname of xyz .... xyz could be her birth surname, or any other name she chose to be known by - and she could vary it at all. But if admitted to hospital eg Newington or perhaps Sydney Hospital up on Macquarie St, ... she would likely give her formal surname - so the one she gave for the birth and death of her child.
Mrs Megan the midwife, could be Megan was the given name and the clerk presumed ... :'(
JM
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Yes, JM you are absolutely right about names. The name she gave for the birth/death was her married name - but she has not used it anywhere else. There is no death record for her, and a search through all the records in her married name yields nothing. So here I am clutching at straws ...
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What are the possible surnames you have?
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Murphy is her birth name - no birth certificate but stated on her marriage certificate age 18, (permission given by an adult cannot find a relationship, married in NZ, have the Certificate and Intention to marry, No clues). Married name, Minton, separated 1880; 16 years difference in age with husband and taking a long bow suspect she left him (and her five children) for someone else, so assume she lived under someone else's name; there is no record of her after the death of the infant. The only clues I have are where she was living at the time (20 Exeter place) and the name of the infant, Maude Alice a total difference from the other children's names which were rather posh, and Mrs Megan witness to the birth. The one Mary who showed up in Newington Asylum was a Mary O'Neil - note the spelling - and there are a couple of references to same in SMH. That's all I have :'(
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Megan is not listed as a popular name in 1800s but you could be right JM
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Megan ..... as in M'gan as in Mcgan as in McGan
:) not a long bow between Megan and McGan
Off to hunt out any there...
JM
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Whee - had a second closer look at Megan and you are right (are you always right ;)?) JM it looks more like Mcgan - so please try that wherever you are looking :D I seem to have run out of inspirations ...
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:) What if Megan lived at 20 Exeter Place and that Mary lived perhaps across the street and came to Megan for the accouchements :)
Sands 1883 alpha page 189 etc ... at 23 Exeter Place, Mary ANDREWS.
http://cdn.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/history/archives/sands/1880-1889/1883-part2.pdf
So various households in Exeter Place at that time had a female head of the household...
At: (odd numbers on south side, from Wexford to Foster Streets, and even no.s on the north side,
no 17, Sarah LEWIS
no 23, Mary ANDREWS (this is at Foster street end)
no. 2, Eliza BETHEL
No. 18, Eliza M'GRATH
JM
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The Benevolent Society's Asylum was still in Devonshire Street in 1887. There's a map at City of Sydney. Asylum next to burial ground, all walking distance from Foster St.
http://cdn.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/history/maps/1177/1177_001.pdf ADD ... look for 'Sydney Terminus' as in where the trains terminated BEFORE they built Central Railway... :)
And from NSW Resources here at RChat, here's an index for the Benevolent Asylum.
http://www.sydneybenevolentasylum.com/index.php?page=search-index
JM
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Thank you, JM - I've searched under Murphy and sent a message to the Benevolent Society. I think I went down that road a few years ago but maybe they have something new. My thinking is that Mary left her husband and children for someone else - he was a musician and is on record as having frequent trips away from home, leaving her to manage alone. But I can't see that she would have just left without inducement - she left him for someone, and it would make sense that it was someone with money - hence my interest in Edward Foley who had been a goldminer and an entrepreneur. However something must have gone amiss there because she was not using either Foley or Minton other than to register the birth; which suggests she had no idea who the father was and simply used his name to make it legal.
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NSW ER 1878 EAST SYDNEY
Joseph MEGSON, household, 7 Exeter Place
JM
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:D Exeter Place was off Elizabeth Street, and Exeter Place ran North South between Wexford and Foster Streets.... so my mind boggles at the lack of proper address for this one , but I am sharing just to bring some smiles to all of us.
NSW ER 1878 EAST SYDNEY
Thomas MITCHELL, household, off Exeter Place...
JM
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NSW ER 1878 EAST SYDNEY
Alexander MURPHY, off Wexford Street, household.
JM
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Maria's death notice, 1919, states 'at her residence'. So separated, divorced, he deceased. I am beginning to think there was only one Edward Townsend.1st column:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article28095854
Jamjar
NSW ER 1902 DALLEY polling at Long Cove.
Maria FOLEY, Halloran Street, domestic duties.
No others with that surname at that polling place.
Some local history re Long Cove ...
https://arhsnsw.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Long-Cove-Viaduct.pdf
JM
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NSW Police Gazette 29 May 1872 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/251601985
Apprehensions
Edward Townsend Foley, charged on warrant, issued by the Townsville (Queensland) Bench, with inflicting grievous bodily hard on one William Kinton Gibbs, has been arrested by Sergeant Fort and Constables Gallagher and McGillion, Tambaroora and Hill End Police, Remanded to Townsville, Bail refused.
(Tambaroora and Hill End were in that era, in a gold rush )
NSW Govt Gazette 12 June 1877 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/223761263
Tambaroora and Turon Mining District
# 1250
Edward Townsend FOLEY, William Henry KENNEDY, Thomas BURNS and John PORTER at Hawkins Hill, Hill End, 22 Nov 1876
And # 1252 with KENNEDY, FOLEY and BURNS etc 2 Dec 1876
So there’s some names of some associates…
JM
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:D Exeter Place was off Elizabeth Street, and Exeter Place ran North South between Wexford and Foster Streets.... so my mind boggles at the lack of proper address for this one , but I am sharing just to bring some smiles to all of us.
NSW ER 1878 EAST SYDNEY
Thomas MITCHELL, household, off Exeter Place...
JM
I think there were four households "Off Exeter Place" according to the rate assessments. The birth Certificate for the infant is non-specific, just Exeter Place; but the death Certificate states No. 20. Not sure where all this leads or where to go next. Nothing definitive anywhere. Was Mary a "fallen woman"? Or simply unfortunate enough to have thrown in her lot with someone who had latent syphillis. It wasn't her husband - the five other children were fine, despite having to be put in the Destitute Children's Asylum for 9 months when Mary left the first time. BTW is there anyone by the name of Moran or Cooney anywhere near Exeter Place? I don't know the area well enough to know what is where - left Sydney over 40 years ago and haven't been back since - I do remember the steam trains, though and travelled on those lines.
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NSW Police Gazette 29 May 1872 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/251601985
Apprehensions
Edward Townsend Foley, charged on warrant, issued by the Townsville (Queensland) Bench, with inflicting grievous bodily hard on one William Kinton Gibbs, has been arrested by Sergeant Fort and Constables Gallagher and McGillion, Tambaroora and Hill End Police, Remanded to Townsville, Bail refused.
(Tambaroora and Hill End were in that era, in a gold rush )
NSW Govt Gazette 12 June 1877 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/223761263
Tambaroora and Turon Mining District
# 1250
Edward Townsend FOLEY, William Henry KENNEDY, Thomas BURNS and John PORTER at Hawkins Hill, Hill End, 22 Nov 1876
And # 1252 with KENNEDY, FOLEY and BURNS etc 2 Dec 1876
So there’s some names of some associates…
JM
Yes this is before Mary and husband separated - I know I've put it at 1870 but it should be after 1876 - sorry for misleading everyone. Last child with her husband born 1876, four of five children in Asylum in 1877 (youngest too young to be accepted); re-united with her husband (as far as it's possible to tell) 1878, separated 1880 when husband advertised refusing responsibility for her debts- for the second and last time. No-one ever mentioned Mary from then on.
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It's amazing. I can't find a death entry for a Mary Elizabeth Foley (nee Fenby) in BDMS for Vic or NSW. Am I going cross-eyed or what??? Trove for NSW doesn't show a death notice for Mary Elizabeth either; I'm trying again with Vic papers and the site has just crashed - oh well, tomorrow is another day ... :D
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NSW Archives, Auriferous leaseshttps://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/gold-auriferous-lease-registers
Edward T FOLEY,
(Application no ?) Ironbarks 77,
Applied for 1 June 1882
Took possession 24 May 1882
J R Blacket
Other names Thomas Isaac Boyd.
Reel 1544.
There’s also various others noted only in the remarks column, some just as Foley.
E T Foley Hill End 5567 November 1874…
E T Foley Hill End 1287 Oct 1877 (Charles McKay)
E F Foley, Hill End 1118 Aug 1875 (Thomas Allen)
E J Foley, Hill End 1159, June 1875 (John Haselden)
If, as is likely, the index was prepared by volunteers in the past decade or so, then they would be reading original handwritten documents. Very easy to read E T as though it was E F or E J in the longhand that was still being taught in NSW Primary schools as recently as the 1950s and until the mid 1960s.
Yes, I was born NSW in 1947 ! and I refused to change my hand when they changed all our High School teachers hands. I was already writing long letters to my relatives, including my Grandparents born back in the 1870s and 1880s ... I wanted to be able to always read their letters and umm.... my High School English Master could not find a better reason to allow any of us to keep our 'hand' so he involved our region's School Inspector... Special visits to our school, interviews, and umm... I learnt the importance of being pedantic. ::)
JM
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NSW Archives, Auriferous leaseshttps://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/gold-auriferous-lease-registers
Edward T FOLEY,
(Application no ?) Ironbarks 77,
Applied for 1 June 1882
Took possession 24 May 1882
J R Blacket
Other names Thomas Isaac Boyd.
Reel 1544.
There’s also various others noted only in the remarks column, some just as Foley.
E T Foley Hill End 5567 November 1874…
E T Foley Hill End 1287 Oct 1877 (Charles McKay)
E F Foley, Hill End 1118 Aug 1875 (Thomas Allen)
E J Foley, Hill End 1159, June 1875 (John Haselden)
If, as is likely, the index was prepared by volunteers in the past decade or so, then they would be reading original handwritten documents. Very easy to read E T as though it was E F or E J in the longhand that was still being taught in NSW Primary schools as recently as the 1950s and until the mid 1960s.
Yes, I was born NSW in 1947 ! and I refused to change my hand when they changed all our High School teachers hands. I was already writing long letters to my relatives, including my Grandparents born back in the 1870s and 1880s ... I wanted to be able to always read their letters and umm.... my High School English Master could not find a better reason to allow any of us to keep our 'hand' so he involved our region's School Inspector... Special visits to our school, interviews, and umm... I learnt the importance of being pedantic. ::)
JM
Re: E.T.Foley gold-mining claim - questions arise - Would he have worked the claim shimself? If he were with Mary before then, did he desert her to go to the goldfields? Infant born 5/11/82 registered Sydney. Since Qld and NSW separated (letters patent) 1859, should we assume Iron Bark is in NSW? Was it Bathurst area?
Understand about the handwriting - I missed being censored - older than that - but hated the new cursive writing taught to my children. My grandchildren have trouble reading my writing - so we send text msgs :(
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Ironbarks is definitely in NSW, it is/was in the county of Wellington, ie Western Gold fields, See Grevilles PO directory 1872 Ironbarks...
Ironbarks, a township in the police, electoral and county of Wellington
Rail to Bathurst, then by coach :)
The men with their wives and children lived under canvas :) I am sure that Wellington is a cold hole in winter...
So Mary Elizabeth, wife from the 1859 marriage may have quit or may have died anywhere from Vic to Qld - likely you have already followed her children :) .
Western NSW trains terminated at Sydney Terminus ... so it is likely those small family groups without a father figure and without any pennies in their purse reached the lower end of Elizabeth street and were sidetracked with offers of accommodation and food for their children in return for red light duties. There are many hidden aspects in how family groups functioned in those years, not just Sydney but in any urban district ... tent cities were the norm not just on the gold fields ... Prospect Dam built for the Sydney water supply is another example ... transient work force, day wages, paid in grog instead of pennies, wives without access to contraception, children without access to clean drinking water. Anyway, I will get off my history hobby horse as that is not helping find your Mary.
JM
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2 Windmill Street seems to be the address for your Mary's lawful husband in 1878. And Windmill St is still where it was back 'then'.... at Millers Point,
https://dictionaryofsydney.org/entry/windmills_of_sydney
Can you please confirm if Mary's baby was recorded on the Dec 1882 d.c. as buried Presbyterian at Rookwood?
JM
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NSW State Archives in partnership with Ancestry have uploaded images for Government Asylums for the Infirm and Destitute, 1880 – 1896.
Using just one word ‘Mary’ at the search engine there’s 366 lasses … There’s Mary O’Neill and Mary O’Neil. – which one please? Both are Roman Catholic and born Ireland. Or please help me to get back on track. There was also a Mary Townsend :)
ADD, it is entirely possible that the chap, E T FOLEY with the lease of the Outer Domain baths lived there and is not the chap living at 20 Exeter Place... ::) Drats...
JM
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2 Windmill Street seems to be the address for your Mary's lawful husband in 1878. And Windmill St is still where it was back 'then'.... at Millers Point,
https://dictionaryofsydney.org/entry/windmills_of_sydney
Can you please confirm if Mary's baby was recorded on the Dec 1882 d.c. as buried Presbyterian at Rookwood?
Wow! You have been busy! And all I've done is herd in my two alpacas to be shorn (so long as they don't try a breakout)
Mary's infant's death cert says burial at the Necropolis. She was R.C.
JM
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[
Using just one word ‘Mary’ at the search engine there’s 366 lasses … There’s Mary O’Neill and Mary O’Neil. – which one please? Both are Roman Catholic and born Ireland. Or please help me to get back on track. There was also a Mary Townsend :)
ADD, it is entirely possible that the chap, E T FOLEY with the lease of the Outer Domain baths lived there and is not the chap living at 20 Exeter Place... ::) Drats...
Exactly my sentiments JM. Think I have a screen shot of every E.T. or Edward Foley in Trove newspaper Collection and the only reason I connected ET to Mary was a mention somewhere or a suggestion of mining. As for Mary O'Neil it's that spelling and I landed on her because she is the right age - but, as I said, there could be other possibilities and without knowing the entire case it's hard to tell, because ages DOB etc is not always stated in the summary info given. But it's good that you've confirmed husband living in a different place.
BTW "our" Mary is supposed to have been born in Melbourne - still haven't been able to pinpoint a Birth Cert for her. She was born Murphy.
[/quote]
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https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/189266985#source Zone A, Presbyterian Section 06B, Grave 4244. aged 48 days. 3 Dec 1882, Rookwood. Perhaps infant buried with an adult female as per usual practice of not leaving an infant unattended in a lonely grave.
ADD, I won't be able to get to Rookwood until around Easter 2020, sorry.
JM
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if that is Mary's infant's burial it's strange because she was definitely R.C. She and husband married by catholic priest (Brighton, Tiromoana, NZ). Expect that's why they didn't divorce.
Sorry, have to go - shearer coming ...
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Also, Mary's baby exactly 28 days old ...
Please don't go to Rookwood until we have something definite for which to go.
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no others with that surname on the NSW BDM online index for deaths between 1 Sept and 5 Dec 1882. #2320 and surname not recorded for 1882 burials at the following index https://catholiccemeteries.com.au/deceased-search/
but is recorded at the following index with those details for Presbyterian burial.
http://www.rookwoodcemetery.com.au/
JM
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At Rookwood Roman Catholic, the indexes have Mary A MINTON, aged 29, death 19 April 1886, but .... ages can be mis-read off headstones... I think for example that '48 days' is a mis-read and the 1882 lass is in a Presbyterian grave....
Anyway, the Mary Minton buried at Rookwood 1886 is here: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2WY-SXZ and other indexes ... except NSW BDM ... where there is the slightest of chances that she has been indexed under a burial but not a civil death ...
CRAMP MARY A M .... Vol 154 is NOT available on microfilm at NSW Archives ... and it is totally speculations on my part, with nothing to back it up at all except given name... 174/1886 V1886174 154 Line 174 could be April, but I have very little reason to have ever sought out Vol 154 and my retired NSW BDM rellies say 'not as reliable as the original bound volumes;'. If and only if it comes down to that bdm doc, ... keep it as a pending.
JM
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NSW Police Gazettes 26 Sept 1883, page 370 (second of three pages at the following trove link)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/252054152/27958165
Mary Minton, Jones street, Ultimo, someone stole four dresses from her. Ultimo is not far from Central Railway. I have walked Country Platforms to umm... Forest Lodge... :) but not in this century.
JM
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Exerter Place was not a good neighbourhood. Even South Australian newspapers carried tragic news of that street ...
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197782878 Evening Journal 6 March 1883.
Evening News, (Sydney) 5 March 1883 ... at 13 Exeter Place...
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/107233020 Witness names mentioned in that cutting.
JM
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Some thing odd ...
The four children handed over in May 1877 as destitute children ... they were handed over and received back (back March 22 1878,) all actions undertaken by their father, of Kent Street, and their paperwork shows the religion for all four children as Prot as in Protestant... although I also notice that the paperwork has their three year old as 'Brother to the three preceeding' when SHE is clearly a girl. :o
So my question is ... is this the same Mary that you have as of 20 Exeter Place on that birth cert in 1882 ... or is it the same because the birth document has the 'right' names, occupations of parents etc .. So, looking at the NSW 1882 birth cert, does that document list the names and ages of that baby's older living siblings? Do they line up with the details (names and ages) of those four children on the destitute records ... The informant provided that info, no one needed to provide proof of those details, just provide verbal info. :) :)
JM
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Hi, JM,
All the evidence that we have points to it; First, the b.certs for the last 2 children (the illegitimate and the previous legitimate one) both registered bdm nsw show date and place of marriage and previous issue; previous issue shown as 2 males 2 females living for the legit, 2 males 3 females living for the illegit (tallies); only discrepancy is that the legit one is a year out as to year of marriage. Both precisely name the father, occupation, birthplace; and both gethis age wrong - the legit one by 4 years, the illegit one by one year. The informant for both births is the mother; the legit child is present, the illegit is not. The legit child's birth is registered one month and few days after the birth; the illegit babe has birth and death registered on the same day, a day after the date of death. The signature of the informant on the illegit birth and death cert varies from itself although it was signed on the same day; it bears similarities with the legit birth cert signature but Mary seems to have had a habit of changing the way she made her "M". As to husband committing the children - I guess if his wife deserted him and he had to work, there might not have been too many options; the eldest child, a boy, was then 9. Shortly after the committal he advertised that he would not be responsible for Mary's debts. Children released back into his care 9 months later.
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At Rookwood Roman Catholic, the indexes have Mary A MINTON, aged 29, death 19 April 1886, but .... ages can be mis-read off headstones... I think for example that '48 days' is a mis-read and the 1882 lass is in a Presbyterian grave....
Yes I see your point; Mary would have been 39 on that date. She hd never been referred to as Mary A and none of the documents even the b.c.s for which she was informant mentioned a middle name - but all of the children had one ...
However, if they were reading off headstones rather than handwritten docs, wouldn't the ages etc be likely to be in Roman numerals - I've never been headstone reading so am just curious?
JM
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Checking through my photos now back shortly re roman numerals... but I have no recollection of roman numerals on any of my NSW ancestors stones... not just NOT at Rookwood, but not anywheres.
back shortly
JM
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https://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/collection-items/george-bond-john-cadman-maria-ann-carrod-william-carrod-eleanor-cork (click and get to the glass negatives of headstones )
no roman numerals...
headstones, the stonemasons likely charge by each character, MDCCCLXXXII likely would be roman numbers for 1882.... I think no roman numerals, but I am happy to stand corrected.
JM
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no that sounds right - no correction needed :D
Although by the looks of the 4s and 2s in those particular headstones, they would be difficult to confuse ...??? :o
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Here's an interesting thing I've just realised - birth cert for legit child states informant as Mary Minton, Mother, off Washington Street, date of cert is 30th May 1876. Did she remain in Washington Street when husband lodged forms from Kent Street?
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so many dots, almost joining.
The 1882 b.c. is my focus at present. So back in 1877 the father has the children listed as Prot. back in 1877 - to me Prot indicating that is administrative code for the Asylum Registrar to show NOT Roman Catholic and NOT Church of England... so the official visitors (Volunteer Ladies - wives of senior Admin officers in NSW Public Service or wives of Members of Parliament etc) from either of those denominations were not needed to visit the Prot destitute children, waiting just like all the destitute children of RC or CofE for a 'posh' lady to come and bring bags of boiled lollies or similar 'gifts' for the needy (in the sense of 'noblesse oblige')
1882 baby born early November, so if full term, back Feb 1882 ... where was Mary ... in Sydney or in a regional locality, or further .... but that 1882 b.c. has 2 males and 3 females living as older siblings... does it give their names and ages or just '2M, 3F living'
JM
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Here's an interesting thing I've just realised - birth cert for legit child states informant as Mary Minton, Mother, off Washington Street, date of cert is 30th May 1876. Did she remain in Washington Street when husband lodged forms from Kent Street?
Well, Sands 1877 (so closing in Oct 1876) Thomas MINTON, 2 Washington lane.
ADD http://cdn.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/history/archives/sands/1870-1879/1877-part1.pdf page 60 of the pdf and page 115 of the Sands itself.
JM
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Just so I don't forget ... re Mrs Megan as witness to 1882 birth...
http://cdn.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/history/archives/sands/1880-1889/1882-part4.pdf
Midwives
Susan MORGAN 18 Kensington Street (Morgan v Megan)
Sands page 349 and pdf page 25
http://cdn.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/history/archives/sands/1880-1889/1882-part4.pdf
(Mrs E Pike of 85 Stanley St delivered a number of babies, including 3 of my ancestors born 1878 - 1884 George St West, !)
JM
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2 m 3 f living - I'm actually surprised that Mary bothered to name her husband on the illegit birth.cert. Because she did it after the babe was dead - no chance of claiming he was the father and sueing for maintenance.
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358 Elizabeth Street, so Exeter Place would likely be very close to that.
NSW Electoral Roll 1878 EAST SYDNEY
Thomas S FOLEY, residence, 358 Elizabeth Street.
add, as yet, I have not found Edward Townsend FOLEY on any of these rolls, fingers crossed NSW State Library has the 1880s rolls.
ADD, here's the FOLEY mentions for what was then 'metropolitan' Sydney
NSW Electoral Rolls 1878, all surnamed FOLEY
Note: qualification for eligibility to enrol include : freehold, leasehold, household, residence, room, shop, office,
EAST SYDNEY
John, household, 49 Campbell St
Lawrence, household, Little Bloomfield Street
Thomas S, residence 358 Elizabeth Street
WEST SYDNEY
Bartholomew, Glebe, store 115 Sussex Street
Dennis, Glebe, shop, 115 Sussex Street
Henry, residence 115 Sussex Street
John, Day’s Yard, household, off Clarence St
John, household, 21 Howard Street
John Joseph, household 157 Cumberland Street
Stephen, leasehold, 16 Railway Place
CANTERBURY
James, residence At Hancock’s, Botany
John, freehold, Nelson Street Annandale
Archer, residence at Tucker’s, Cook’s River Road
Denis A, household, Burwood Road, Burwood
THE GLEBE
Bartholomew, residence Forest Street, Glebe
NEWTOWN
Cornelius, freehold, Camperdown Road
John, household, Albemarle St, Newtown
PADDINGTON
William FOLEY, leasehold, George Street, Waterloo
ST LEONARDS (JM notes this was a huge area, covering north side basically from say Manly oceanside through to Parramatta and up to Pittwater etc…)
Thomas, freehold, St Leonards
David, Country freehold, St Leonards
Just in case the above is of use to others at some time in the future
JM
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2 m 3 f living - I'm actually surprised that Mary bothered to name her husband on the illegit birth.cert. Because she did it after the babe was dead - no chance of claiming he was the father and sueing for maintenance.
The question she would likely have been asked could be 'what is the name of your husband' rather than 'what is the name of the baby's father'. :)
JM
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The question she would likely have been asked could be 'what is the name of your husband' rather than 'what is the name of the baby's father'. :)
Yes, and since the poor child was dead, she would not have gained by registering it under the real father's name anyway.
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Re Foleys - I think one of them had a pub; I remember vaguely that he was fined for allowing prostitutes on his premises.
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NSW Electoral Rolls 1878, all surnamed MINTON
Note: qualification for eligibility to enrol include : freehold, leasehold, household, residence, room, shop, office,
EAST SYDNEY
NO Minton listing
WEST SYDNEY
NO Minton listing. (JM notes I recall earlier post I typed up Minton, but the electoral roll has Thomas MILTON, household 2 Windmill Street)
CANTERBURY
NO Minton listing
THE GLEBE
NO Minton listing
NEWTOWN
NO Minton listing
PADDINGTON
NOPE
ST LEONARDS
Nope
Perhaps in 1878 Edward Townsend FOLEY and Thomas MINTON both knew that in 2019 there would be people looking for their shadows and so they made sure they were well hidden.
JM
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The question she would likely have been asked could be 'what is the name of your husband' rather than 'what is the name of the baby's father'. :)
Yes, and since the poor child was dead, she would not have gained by registering it under the real father's name anyway.
and she would likely have been there with the funeral director's officers and likely simply allowed them to help her answer those questions... prompting with broad questions rather than the direct ones that would be faced today. JM
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Quick question - did Aus have Contagious Diseases Acts as in Uk - esp the one where women could be confined in hospital and treated against their will?
The thing with Minton is that he is on record in newspapers; Edward Foley is not. Minton is also on Australharmony and at the Mitchell Library.
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=703631.0
I am duplicating info I have previously typed up. Sorry.
JM
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No problems, JM,
Information for the death cert for Mary's husband was filled out by his son-in-law; many of the details are incorrect, including parents' names but the names of all the children (then adults) are correctly listed, and their ages, though the illegit child is not mentioned and it is marked "none dead". The marriage is incorrectly stated as 33 years (should be 34), he is not described as a widower, but his wife's name is given as Bridget Murphy. I have traced his burial at Rookwood. He died of Apoplexy Hemiphlegia (stroke) - a fairly common fate of his offspring. Having both parents mentioned in second son's death probably means Mary's boys who, were older when she left, remembered and passed on more to their families than the son-in-law's learned or bothered to remember. I'm still left with trying to winkle out where Mary was buried. Was she still alive when Thomas died? She would have been 52. Did she survive syphillis with a long period of latency? Was she confined to a hospital?
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Quick question - did Aus have Contagious Diseases Acts as in Uk - esp the one where women could be confined in hospital and treated against their will?
The thing with Minton is that he is on record in newspapers; Edward Foley is not. Minton is also on Australharmony and at the Mitchell Library.
1880s ... errr ... Australia was not federated until 1901, so no Australian Parliament, so no Australian Acts... The seven colonies each had their own parliaments so they would have had opportunities at colonial levels to address Contagious Diseases Acts. May I offer the following live links: http://www.austlii.edu.au/ and for NSW V & P there's NSW Hansard & House papers : https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/hansard/pages/home.aspx?tab=Browse&s=1 goes back to 1856 etc..
JM
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I have not been following this for a while, but I assume you have ETs arrest in Townsville. He was living in HILL END NSW, also.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article251601985
4th column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article123619445
Jamjar
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Was Thomas MINTON buried in Roman Catholic section at Rookwood?
JM
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Was Thomas MINTON buried in Roman Catholic section at Rookwood?
JM
Not according to their online search.
Jamjar
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Yes, well found Jamjar.
I have recently discovered earlier threads, so sadly I have been duplicating, ::) ::) wasting RChat servers' space etc.
JM
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No JM your replies have led forward to other things we haven't considered. Thomas is buried in Protestant section.
Yes, Jamjar, we did have the info about E.T.Foley being arrested in Qld and JM gave the info about Hill end. It's just hard to know where it leads. No-one seems to have claimed Edward Foley, or E.T. Foley whether or not they are the same person; and Mary is elusive as ever. See my amended post.
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Thanks JJ, so infant born and died 1882, buried Presbyterian, but our OP is sure that baby was illegitimate birth, although the NSW BDM birth and death cert lists her lawful husband as father of that baby... FOUR of the Minton children (of Thomas and Mary) were admitted to Destitute Asylum in 1877 and reclaimed in 1878 (both admit and reclaim by Thomas only, no mention of Mary) and their 'Religion' listed as Prot ... I am sure that is Protestant standard abbreviation on those Asylum records.... and now Thomas was not buried Roman Catholic, but OP has assured us that they were Roman Catholic as they married RC in New Zealand...
Very confusing, but basically our OP wants to find burial of Mary who gave birth to a baby girl at 20 Exeter Place, Sydney (off Elizabeth Street down Surry Hills end) in November 1882. Mary may have had an extra-marital with E T FOLEY, but I have not found anything to confirm that as yet.
Hope that covers the short version. :) E Townsend FOLEY was transitted back to Townsville but seems to have returned to NSW by around 1880s... Perhaps had lease on the Old Domain Baths when it had a natural sand/beach base and boardwalks around perimeter for customers to jump/dive off into water of varying depths...
JM
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" and now Thomas was not buried Roman Catholic, but OP has assured us that they were Roman Catholic as they married RC in New Zealand..."
Thomas was born and died a protestant: they were married, according to certificate, by an RC priest but not in Church ie "at the residence of the parties."
Since Mary and Thomas were separated, Mary could have been buried as an RC but Thomas is not described as a widower. Suggests Mary was still alive in 1901 wherever she was - unless it was not usual to describe the decedents "condition."
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The short version is good.
Have you checked the Rookwood headstone disc?
When did Mary and Thomas die?
Did they have a daughter Maria?
Jamjar
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No problems, JM,
Information for the death cert for Mary's husband was filled out by his son-in-law; many of the details are incorrect, including parents' names but the names of all the children (then adults) are correctly listed, and their ages, though the illegit child is not mentioned and it is marked "none dead". The marriage is incorrectly stated as 33 years (should be 34), he is not described as a widower, but his wife's name is given as Bridget Murphy. I have traced his burial at Rookwood. He died of Apoplexy Hemiphlegia (stroke) - a fairly common fate of his offspring. Having both parents mentioned in second son's death probably means Mary's boys who, were older when she left, remembered and passed on more to their families than the son-in-law's learned or bothered to remember. I'm still left with trying to winkle out where Mary was buried. Was she still alive when Thomas died? She would have been 52. Did she survive syphillis with a long period of latency? Was she confined to a hospital?
Do you have marriage certs for each of those children, if so, please type up the info that each one provided about their mum, and the year that child married ie the year that info about their mum was being provided. If marrying in NSW, it was not a requirement until 1899 for the clergy to enquire if either parent was no longer living, but it was definitely a requirement for the clergy to ask for the names of each parent, the occupation of the father, and for the mother's maiden name if known. In NSW there was a penalty of £500 for giving false information on marriage 8)
JM
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My Rookwood disc does not function on my current puter ... wrong OS etc.
I had been promised by various supposed technocrats that it would, but ... nope.
JM
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I can check when it cools down. No A/C in computer room.
Jamjar
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" and now Thomas was not buried Roman Catholic, but OP has assured us that they were Roman Catholic as they married RC in New Zealand..."
Thomas was born and died a protestant: they were married, according to certificate, by an RC priest but not in Church ie "at the residence of the parties."
Since Mary and Thomas were separated, Mary could have been buried as an RC but Thomas is not described as a widower. Suggests Mary was still alive in 1901 wherever she was - unless it was not usual to describe the decedents "condition."
NSW BDM death cert, column 3 would give 'occupation' as Widow if a female death, but if you read the column headings carefully, no requirement for 'Widower' even back on 1864 era d.c.
JM
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Mary allowed her baby to be buried Presbyterian, in 1882, so I am actually doubting that Mary was Roman Catholic. It simply does not 'add up' ...
JM
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Looks like 2 daughters married the WONNOCOTT brothers, 1895 and 1896.
Jamjar
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JM, sorry no do not have all marriage certificates. Cousin in NZ has the latest one for Amelia Laura who married 1896. Eldest daughter married in 1895 - and I too am having computer problems and cannot call up the copies of the middle daughter. Eldest and youngest daughter married two brothers; one went to NZ, one stayed in Sydney and then went to America
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Maria WONNOCOTT died 1916 and is buried Rookwood CofE
2nd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article15670250
1618/1916 WONNOCOTT Maria parents Thomas and Mary
Jamjar
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Another sister married 1893 to William F SHEPHARD. She is recorded twice as Arabella G and Isabella G.
Jamjar
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Arabella G is the middle sister - I do have certificates for her but cannot access them
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No mother is mentioned in Maria’s list of notices.
Maria did leave an In Memoriam for her father in 1902. Can’t see one for her mother.
Jamjar
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What are the parents’ names of the missing Mary?
Jamjar
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JM and JamJar
Hansard reports by .pdf 03762, Clause 25, that persons in a common lodging house could be
removed to hospital if suffering "from fever or any infections or contagious diseases". Given the pious attitudes prevalent in late Victorian era (1880s) what are Mary's chances of finishing up in hospital after having had a babe die from congenital syphillis?
Thanks for the tip JM
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Names of Mary's parents unkonwn, no birth certificate, claimed to be 18 in May 1867 which means she could have been born june 1848 to April 1849
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I'd say high seeing the babe died from syphillis.
No headstone inscriptions for the Minton's or Maria W.
Jamjar
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so next question - how to get access to hospital records? I tried but they all seem to be on either microfiche or micro-reels (if there is such a thing).
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And the question after that is, I guess, who infected Mary and whom did they infect? Because syphillis is highly contagious, was incurable in those days and must have cut a swathe through the people with whom Mary and ? were in contact. So if it were E.T. Foley, or an alternate Edward Foley, he would have been lucky to have descendants and there would have been infant mortality/stillbirths and adult illnesses/deaths - which should show up in his family tree. :'( How sad!
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And the question after that is, I guess, who infected Mary and whom did they infect? Because syphillis is highly contagious, was incurable in those days and must have cut a swathe through the people with whom Mary and ? were in contact. So if it were E.T. Foley, or an alternate Edward Foley, he would have been lucky to have descendants and there would have been infant mortality/stillbirths and adult illnesses/deaths - which should show up in his family tree. :'( How sad!
I am without medical qualifications, so from Doctor Google searching this morning 'Symptoms may then show up when the infant is 3-14 weeks of age. In these cases the mother probably acquired the infection during the later part of her pregnancy. ' So, E T Foley was the person on the various records as the landlord or householder etc. In red light districts in Sydney (there were several) that person may well have been a 'stooge' and was not ever the 'actual' person who 'ran the girls' ... The oldest profession in the world ... being enslaved by economic circumstances and lack of community and employable skills thus needing to be a 'pro'. E T Foley is the least likely candidate to be the infector, he was the stooge on the paperwork, he took the fall for the unclean household charges.
Just my opinion.
Question... I have looked at the online version of NZ BDM ... The marriage earlier than 1875 will be scant on info, (no parents etc) but ... the most likely entry on their index does NOT mention Thomas MINTON... I know the online index has flaws particularly for that early pre 1875 marriage regos. but ... should you be looking at NSW records under the surname MUSSON for Mary, as the NZ BDM may have her marriage :
1873/11035
Mary MURPHY and Thomas Tims MUSSON
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/search
JM
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Agh, found back in 2014 on one of those earlier threads
Mary Murphy married Ggrandpa Thomas Minton in NZ (Brighton, West Coast) in 1867. She was 18 (needed permission to marry) and ggpa 34. We've tracked ggpa right back to his hometown of Clerkenwell, London, UK, have his death notices and even a newpaper photograph (he was a musician). But Mary is elusive. They had six children, 2 born NZ, 2 born Victoria, 2 born NSW, the last one born and died in 1882. Gma's birth certificate suggests Mary was born in Victoria, but try as we might we've been unable to find any details of Mary's parents, birth, siblings, or even her death. We suspect a sister, Letitia, who appeared as a witness to Mary's Marriage and later the same year married John Patrick Thomas in Charleston, NZ. But Letitia could have been a cousin or even an aunt. Margarita Newberry gave permission to Mary; but we can find no link via the NZ boards that ties Mary and Margarita together. Can some kind, diligent, RootsChatterer (?) please suggest how we might find our Mary? :-*
so try WINTON for possible NSW sightings of Mary in NSW official records. :)
1867/6997 Mary MURPHY and Thomas WINTON
1867/6937 Letitia MURPHY and John Patrick THOMAS
JM
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So it seems Mary MURPHY had a sister Letitia, and Mary was possibly born Melbourne in around 1849. So, as Melbourne was still part of NSW until 1851, and as Mary and Letitia may have been baptised Roman Catholics, but you have not found likely birth records in Victoria, have you looked through the NSW BDM Early Church Records online index.... it is incorporated into their 'births' section.
So from NSW Archives you will learn that Roman Catholic baptisms in the years 1840 to 1855 may be in the NSW BDM volumes numbered 61-72. Of course, NOT ALL church records made it to these sets, but it is worth a try, particularly with the less popular Christian name of Letitia... :) .
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/births-deaths-and-marriages-registers-1787-1856
So look through the MURPHY baptisms at NSW BDM for the years 1840 - 1856 and look at the index reference numbers ... As an aside Roman Catholic burials 1840-1856 will be in Vol 114-120 and Marriages in Vol 90-101 and of course you should also cross reference with the pdf for the Early Church Codes (but online these are only on the marriages index) https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Documents/early-church-codes.pdf
some background :
https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/about-us/history-of-registry.aspx
Some family history background - well worth the re-read
https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history-research/family-history-research-nsw.aspx
And the actual online indexes
https://familyhistory.bdm.nsw.gov.au/lifelink/familyhistory/search?4
JM
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I have a number of elderly living relatives, some of whom have had significant admin careers in NSW government offices ... and in their retirement they have returned to rural and regional localities, near their rural farming siblings... so based of course in regional NSW, and at this current point in time, all are a tad worried about those affected by bushfires and ongoing drought issues As they are excellent at appreciating the inner workings of form filling and book-keeping and getting the info in the 'right' option box etc, online and offline ... well ... they are a tad busy as volunteers helping those 'obtuse' aspects of government forms.... but for refreshing their concentration efforts one or two are still following my RChat posts ... and making good use of their phone skills.
So I am just posting my thoughts now, for 'everyone' to read and follow up... as I have been prompted by one or two of those rellies who have read through some of those linked threads.
Someone was wondering if Letitia, Mary’s sister and witness at Mary’s 1867 NZ marriage was perhaps named Letitia after their mum?
There is a death registered on the NSW BDM index for 1859 for a 23 year old lass who died in Sydney, named as Letitia MURPHY. #1115/1859 If you are going to purchase that, don’t. Order an official transcription instead … cheaper, and already transcribed by excellent, experienced and dedicated transcribers. See RChat’s NSW Resources board for info.
Trove is an excellent online resource, particularly when you notice ‘age …. Years’ and ‘Died …..’ at the NSW BDM indexes in lieu of father and mother given names…. Tip = try Trove and look for Coroner Inquest. Why? Well the original indexers for NSW BDM were volunteers, early members of SAG and they made every effort to transcribe sufficient info onto their cards etc from the ‘mess’ of the record keeping officers at the NSW Reg Gen’s offices (BDM was part of the then Lands Titles Office, both were very poorly under funded from earliest times, and still are and Lands Titles have been sold off to private FOR PROFIT without due regard etc )
Trove sightings of interest from my armchair this morning:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13032406 SMH 29 Oct 1859 … Inquest on Letitia Murphy.
AND THEN
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13032613 SMH 2 Nov 1859 … Coroner would have needed to reopen and hear that Letitia was 32, not 23, and that her right name was ….
So, I wonder if that 32 year old in 1859 was a mother, perhaps to two girls, and the girls were sent to NZ to live with relatives there?
Just speculations of course… but striving to find names of parents of people in NSW after convictism ceased in 1840 and prior to civil registration commencement in 1856 or who came steerage and not on immigration schemes and who likely came suffering gold fever, and likely helped the population grow several times faster than the 80 or so years of convictism…
I have a full agenda and may be a tad busy at real life matters during the rest of this week. I may not have opportunity to actually concentrate on helping further on this or other threads, but I will try.
JM
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Hi
I admit to not having read previous threads from our OP, but for interest I do note that Letitia and her husband John Patrick THOMAS went to NZ too where two children were born. They also later went to Melbourne I think and there I see a further three children up to 1888.
I can search for more after 1888 if needed.
Sue
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What are the names of the children born in VIC, Sue?
Could this be the death of Letitia?
15936/1924 THOMAS Letitia mother Ann DOOLAN father MURPHY John RICHMOND aged 79
Jamjar
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Hi Sue and JJ :)
Can you please check on a death in Vic in 1924 I cannot get online to trove and I am hopeless on Vic searchings but death is for Letitia THOMAS, father as John MURPHY and mother as Ann DOOLAN
she was 79
JM on e reader so there could be typos in my post sorry
EDIT sorry JJ I am duplicating you I dont get red warnings on this device
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Not a problem at all, JM. ;)
I checked Trove and the online cemeteries and can’t see her.
My guess is that she is at Melbourne General.
Jamjar
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From Victorian Rates Books
Mrs. Letitia THOMAS
Residence on 14 Dec 1887
Residence Place-Hawthorn, Victoria, Australia
Owner Name:Ellen Hussey
The Victorian Births-
THOMAS. Parents John Patrick and Letitia (MURPHY)
Lucy Maud 1873/Reg 3997. N. Melb
Albert Edward 1875/Reg 3697. Melb.
Isabella May 1888/Reg 21105. Hawthorn
There is a death too THOMAS, Charles Grey. Aged 11 m. Born in New Zealand. Yr 1872/ Reg 1935.
Parents John THOMAS and Letitia MURPHY.
Sue
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Thank you, Sue.
Seems rather conclusive that it’s the correct folk.
A death: THOMAS Jno Patk parents unknown aged 74 5319/1917
Jamjar
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In light of the information about John Patrick THOMAS deserting his wife, I wonder if the last child of Letitia was this one whose father is possibly not John Patrick THOMAS.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/66161569
Sue
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In light of the information about John Patrick THOMAS deserting his wife
I’m not seeing this. :-\
I did wonder about that birth.
Jamjar
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Ancestry has the 1924 death of Letitia Thomas transcribed as aged 39.
The Victorian Pioneer Index I use has aged 79 as given by Jamjar
Place Richmond.
Sue
In light of the information about John Patrick THOMAS deserting his wife
I’m not seeing this. :-\
I did wonder about that birth.
Jamjar
Hi Jamjar
Open the link and use Control F search box in I E or Chrome.
Type in Letitia.
It's towards the end of the first column.
Sue
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Hi Jamjar
Open the link and use Control F search box in I E or Chrome.
Type in Letitia.
It's towards the end of the first column.
I don’t understand.
I’m on my iPad.
If you are referring to the link re: maintenance, on Trove, I see that.
I can’t see anything about her being deserted by John.
Jamjar
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Ah, Now I think I see what has happened.
I posted the reply re the desertion at that time on R'chat when they do the big upload each day.
In Melbourne where I am, that is around 11.15 and running through to 11.30ish.
It creates a long lag between the moment you hit "post" on reply window and the time it appears on the board.
Well, it seemed to post ok, at the time but obviously it didn't. :-[
I thought you couldn't find the reference to James GEE
Anyhow, Here is the link to the desertion issue.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/66155897
Sue
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'The complainant stated that her husband was not living with her and had only given her a few shillings/
North Melbourne Advertiser 4 June 1886 page 3 second column from right
JM
MODIFY .... duplicating... at least we are all on same track so I will get back to my real life stuffs
::) ::) ::) sorry Sue
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All good, have read it now.
I do not understand why, even when using ‘advanced’ search, things don’t pop up.
I can’t see anything conclusive for their children, re: M and Ds.
Jamjar
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Victorian electoral Roll 1915
THOMAS, John Patrick. 25 Foley Street Kew. No occ.
THOMAS Letitia. 25 Foley Street Kew. Housekeeper
;)
Sue
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Here are a couple of deaths with parents John Patrick THOMAS and Letitia MURPHY
A slight question mark over this one, but age at death matches a birth in NZ. Letitia 1868. Parents John Patrick THOMAS and Letitia. Reg.37171
POWER, Latitia.
Father POWER, Thomas John Patrick.
Mother Latitia MURPHY
Melb S.
Aged 62.
1930/Reg 6492
BRAMWELL, Emily Virginia
Father THOMAS, John Patrick
Mother Letitia MURPHY.
At Kew
Aged 69
1949/Reg 617
Sue
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Perhaps as an aside
I think John Patrick THOMAS may be this 1917 death :
Jno Patk THOMAS, aged 74, Kew, #5319. Perhaps Letitia was the informant, but no mention on index of his parents info, still he was only a possible inlaw to Mary MINTON nee MURPHY.
JM
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I cannot locate the thread at present re the ship 'Arundel' arriving 26 November 1852 but I have just sighted a passenger list, and it seems the original source would be PROV :)
Thomas MINTON, aged 19, a Printer, of England contracted to land Port Phillip.
Elsewhere on same list:
Benjamin MINTON, aged 21, also a Printer, of England, also contracted to land Port Phillip.
Sorry for the diversion. ADD, found the thread re Arundel... https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=812596.0
JM
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Hi Sue, JJ and JM,
Thank you for all the help and research time you are giving. Here are some things that might help;
John Thomas and Letitia Murphy witnessed the marriage of Thomas and Mary Minton (at Brighton, Fox River NZ) 6/5/1867, and were married themselves November 1867 at Charleston (about 18km from Brighton). Thomas and Mary did not witness and occupation of John Thomas is given as hotelkeeper.
The officiating minister for T/M marriage was Rev Father Emmanuel Royer. The officiating Minister for J/L was Rev Stephen Hallum. The No. on the Thomas/Mary Cert is 899, at BDM NZ it shows up as 1867/2999 under the name Winton - not sure why as all the "M"s look alike on the original - in fact it's very clear and if I could get my computer and camera to talk to each other I could post it ??? The No on the J/L Cert is 880 - just took it from my pile of papers
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JM Neither Thomas nor Benjamin were printers; Thomas was a painter/paperhanger when he wasn't a musician; Benjamin was a painter/paperhanger and tried goldmining; Richard (brother) was a plumber when he wasn't an actor and William (brother) tried gold-mining and then kept a painting/paperhanging shop. Joseph was in the merchant navy. I have details of all their marriages except Joseph who remained a bachelor. Richard died 1864. They are all quite visible and traceable - except for Mary
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Have since found on BDM NSW for period 7/05/1848 - 31/12/1849 births for 8 Mary Murphys None of them have Patrick Murphy and Anne Dolan as parents. Mary's dead child was Maud Alice; a Maud is mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread
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Re NSW bdm lists... for Early Church Records .... these are prior to commencement of Civil Registration, and are NOT births, but baptisms. Also the online index does NOT give maiden surnames.
Re Patrick MURPHY ... ummm Letitia THOMAS' death registration in Victoria in 1924 has John MURPHY and Ann DOOLAN as her recorded parents.
Have since found on BDM NSW for period 7/05/1848 - 31/12/1849 births for 8 Mary Murphys None of them have Patrick Murphy and Anne Dolan as parents. Mary's dead child was Maud Alice; a Maud is mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread
I attach a snip from Arundel's passenger list. I read it as Printer it is the occupation for Thomas MINTON, aged 19 etc... Happy to stand corrected as I know 'a' and 'r' can be misread for each other.
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JM re E T Foley - just a few comments about syphillis -
a) congenital syphillis depends on what stage of infection mother has reached during pregnancy cf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2819963/
b) Foetal infection is more likely during early stages but an infected mother can infect her foetus at least during first five years of infection https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/congenital-syphilis
c) Primary stage sore appears 3 weeks after infection and primary stage usually lasts 3-6 weeks but can range from 10-90 days; secondary stage appears 2-8 weeks after primary and if symptoms go away sufferer is said to be in Tertiary stage. https://www.uofmhealth.org/health-library/tm6404
d) Untreated syphillis during pregnancy has an almost 100% rate of transmission to the foetus and
foetal or perinatal death occurs in 40% of cases. https://www.hindawi.com/journals/cripe/2012/934634/
So it's quite likely Mary was infected before not during her pregnancy although it could have occurred either way. As for ETF, he was a gold miner; and he fronted and took the rap for a brothel.
The suffragettes would have said he was responsible, directly or indirectly. And the temperance ladies would have ... er ... castigated him. ;). Until another candidate turns up, he looks like it. ;) ;) ;)
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JM you are justified in interpreting it as printer - I might have done the same. I think the mistake here was with whoever wrote out the passenger list in the first place.
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Re Ann MURPHY
There is a baptism at St Patrick's at Parramatta NSW in 1844. Sometimes on Roman Catholic parish registers of baptisms, a date of birth can be recorded, and names of sponsors as well.
This is for a baptism of John, born 17 February 1844 and baptised 3 March 1844 at St Patrick Church, Parramatta, a Roman Catholic service. Clergyman : Nicholas Joseph COFFEY
The register shows the father as James FRENCH, soldier in the 99th Regiment and the mother as Ann MURPHY. ADD and in 1846, the 99th Regiment went to NZ ... a Maori War...
The Sponsors were Patrick GORMAN and Mary MURPHY.
The NSW BDM online index has the above baptism indexed and referenced as Volume 145, line 844 (of 1844). No other entries for children of James and Ann FRENCH, but there's TWO for James and Anne FRENCH, daughter, Mary Anne or Mary A ... Volume 62, line 886 of 1845 and Volume 134, line 2500 of 1845.
To add to the confusion, Volume 62 is for a Protestant baptism and Volume 134 is likely to be a complied volume, perhaps Roman Catholic of perhaps a mix of denominations.
ADD, Mistaken info, Volume 62 is definitely Roman Catholic,
62 (Volume) 5021 (reel) 1-320 (line numbers in Volume) Bap 1845 Roman Catholic
62 (volume) 5022 (reel) 311-2641 (end) (line numbers in Volume) Bap 1845 Roman Catholic
JM mis-read her own trusty book. :-[ Thanks to Rellies phoning me... mea culpa
But ... just because a New Zealand marriage has the bride as aged 18, does not mean the bride was actual 18. She may have believed that was her age, but it is not sensible to restrict any search for a bride to six months either side of the date of the marriage. Throughout all of the British Empire, all through the 1800s, it was lawful for girls to marry once they reached 12 years of age but if not yet 21, then, because they had not yet reached majority they did not have authority to consent to their own marriage, and so they needed consent from an adult with authority to give it ... Same for boys, although they needed to be 14 before being of a lawful age to marry, but still they could not give their own consent until aged 21 or over.
JM
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..... As for ETF, he was a gold miner; and he fronted and took the rap for a brothel.
The suffragettes would have said he was responsible, directly or indirectly. And the temperance ladies would have ... er ... castigated him. ;). Until another candidate turns up, he looks like it. ;) ;) ;)
Of course, the charge was 'for having filthy premises' and was upon Edward Foley of 20 Exeter Place and he was fined £2 and costs. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13524931 SMH 16 Sept 1882. There were 2 floors, and only 3 rooms... So, likely upstairs had a series of curtains and downstairs was for the spruking
Maud Alice's father could well have been the carrier, and you have mentioned earlier that Mary is mentioned on some of her sons' bdm records ... so it is possible that the recorded father on Maud's NSW BDM record is actually her biological father, and perhaps Mary delivered her baby at 20 Exeter Place because she was taken there by her husband or a family member with contractions. Perhaps even escorted there by one of her older children?
Yes, there are newspapers notices showing a Thomas MINTON in September 1880 was not prepared to accept responsibility for any Debts contracted by his wife. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13468650 SMH 23 Sept 1880 etc
BUT remember, he put notices in paper back in 1877 and then lodged the children as Destitute before reclaiming them. There's no sign of the children being lodged as destitute in 1880 or at any time after that is there? I have not ever noticed a retraction from any male lodging their 'I will not be responsible for any debts contracted by my wife' in any trove searchings or back in the days when I was going the The Mitchell to look up the actual original newspaper copies for any local history researchings.
If this Mary MURPHY was one of my ancestors, I would simply note that 'After Mary has provided the information for the birth and infant death of her daughter Maud Alice, Mary is lost to the official records at the present time, despite diligent and deep searchings for her by many'. I cannot see that it is valid to nominate ETF or any other Edward Foley as the likely father of Maud Alice based on the depth of searchings undertaken by some very experienced researchers based in New Zealanders as well as Australia .
JM
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1882 Assessment Book
Thomas MINTON was the tenant at 39 Corban Street, the Landlord/owner was Christian HENSE, and the rates were on the valuation of £33 It was of brick with singled roof, 3 floors, 4 rooms. Christian HENSE was landlord/lowner of 39, 41 and 43 Corban Street at that time. Christian HENSE was a Music Teacher. Corban Street was in Surry Hills, walking distance from Exeter Place.
JM
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Re Musicians, particularly Christian HENSE and Vagabonds …1878
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18823602 Maitland mercury 13 July 1878
….. and Christian HENSE for being street musicians and refusing to desist playing ….. Mr Julian THOMAS (the Vagabond) deposed …. … There’s the surname THOMAS again…
NSW ER 1878 EAST SYDNEY
Christian HENSE, freehold Corben Street
So back in 1868
SMH 21 Nov 1868 page 1 Marriages has Christian HENSE marriage.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13175953 Riley Street ... and that's Surry Hills of course...
May I mention that Dr Bailey, Bishop of the Free Church of England in NSW has been discussed several times at RChat, and I have usually noted that it seems he ran a marriage shop in that district.
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/bailey-william-1731
one of the threads
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=587437.0
BUT forward to 1882
Re the Sept 1882 charge on Edward FOLEY … it was NOT regarding the conducting of a brothel. It was regarding the physical condition of the premises. It is likely the Inspector of Nuisances had inspected the premises.
Yes, it is likely that 20 Exeter Place may have been a brothel, but that is NOT the charge for which the court imposed a fine of £2.
Re Inspector of Nuisances… perhaps there’s correspondence archived re HENSE or MINTON or FOLEY or musicians inconveniencing local residents or … a list of candidates who could have infected Mary MINTON nee MURPHY ….
http://archives.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/Entity.aspx?Path=%5CAgency%5C75
JM
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Hi JM. Lots of interesting sidelights there; not sure that any of it applies. T Minton was in NZ until 1872 and then spent a couple of years in Victoria, so would not have had much to do with Christian Hense or Dr. Bailey's marriage Mill.
Perhaps if you checked out this link:
https://sydney.edu.au/paradisec/australharmony/register-M-2.php
it would give you a clearer idea of the type of musician TM was. I don't think Street musicians or German Bands quite fits the bill. He was also a teacher of music; taught for some time in Dunedin (see ads on Papers Past) so renting from music teacher Hense probably makes sense.
I agree ETF was not charged with brothel keeping; but given the comments throughout this thread that Exeter Place was a pretty grim area, it's hard not to reach that conclusion, especially as the act under which he would have been charged is specifically aimed at controlling "infection and contagious diseases" and he could have been required to whitewash the entire area (see Hansard). Especially as the labour value of L2 today is $1798 - not such a great amount, I imagine considering today's wages.(https://www.measuringworth.com/calculators/australiacompare/relativevalue.php.
I checked out the archives you recommended but the relevant ones are not yet digitised so couldn't come up with any additional names and since I don't live in Sydney (or NSW for that matter) it's going to be a while before I can do anything more on that front. In the interim I've checked out all of TM and MM's children. BDM records all show name of mother and father. And, of course, In memoriams went into the SMH for a couple of years after TM's death. Mother's name definitely known but no-one wanted to recognise her.
As for the preponderence of Thomases - at least two surnames, Letitia's husband and the German Band - I guess with Sydney's population at around 29000 in that era and many of them crammed into the small area of the Rocks, Darlinghurst, Surrey Hills, etc, I suppose it would be hard not to have multiples. It certainly seems like that when doing a name search on Trove.
Harking back to other valid points you've made. The trove article that seemed to mention Letitia when I increased and cleared it became Hortensia :-\ ;
and in case you haven't been able to find it, in 1889 TM apparently rented 2 places in Rockdale; it appears in trove as notification of assessment (SMH18/5/1889) Lot 1, Sec 1, and Lot 36, Sec 1, Hastings, Ellery's sub-division.
Also, The Age (Melb) 23/06/1875 TM advertised that he would not be responsible for any debts his wife might incur after that date. Their last daughter was born 28th April, 1876 at No. 2 off Washington St, which just fits the appropriate time for M to have returned and an infant to be conceived. No syphillis with that one but no wonder they left Melbourne. I suspect after the third time he really meant it. :(
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:D :D :D :D :D
I've just realised - those properties for which TM was to be rated in 1889 are probably gravesites???
They cost L1.10s.0d ea. It could just be --- or have been --- the last resting place of Mary and her poor babe ... JM you would know - could that be it? ???
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Just had a look at TROVE and it appears "Hastings Estate" was a land development near Botany Bay, there are adds in SMH 1880 /1879 for the lots of land. I dont think councils make you pay rates for a burial plot, however i might be wrong.
Cass
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£2 in 1882 was 40/- and there were married men living Chippendale and Darlington who were working for wages of 10/- per diem so their wages over a week would be £3. I can also assure you that 10/- p.d. was going rate for some married men, coal miners in the Hunter district.
Anastasia was the Christian name for the 32 year old patient at the Asylum,
Source : the article mentioned they would exhume the next day. So look for follow up in the newspaper’s edition of the ‘next day’ and find clean copy where it mentions her name.
Christian HENSE in 1878 is clearly shown on the electoral roll as being eligible to be enrolled due to being qualified as having FREEHOLD in Corben Street. In 1882 he is shown as the OWNER/LANDLORD of three properties in that same street, and your Thomas MINTON is his tenant in one of those three. Further, Christian HENSE of that address is listed at Sands as a Music Teacher. So I would suggest that both Thomas MINTON and Christian HENSE would have similar professional standards in respect of music, afterall owning even one property in in Surry Hills was not an opportunity many musicians would have achieved in those decades, and HENSE had three.
Of course, 20 Exeter Place also had an owner/landlord and that was William FLETCHER. Perhaps he was the carrier.
Yes, agree with Cass re cemeteries and burial plots, definitely not individually rated by local government councils. I think you will find that … agh … … in those decades cemeteries were administered by Boards, the members of which were qualified to be Trustees, and the biggest cemetery was at Rookwood, not at Botany.
I am sure that find the parents of Mary MINTON nee MURPHY you need to move away from seeking out Edward Townsend FOLEY and concentrate of Letitia THOMAS nee MURPHY, or perhaps the possibility of a militiary NZ connection via that John FRENCH alias John MURPHY born at Parramatta 1844, afterall, many a child of a soldier was known by his mum's surname rather than his dad's :) perhaps the easiest option at present is to save up the pennies and obtain the Vic BDM digitised image of the d.c. for Letitia, as it seems likely it names her parents.
JM on my e-reader. Sorry, cannot do live links to offer sources for above, but I can assure you that Trove will be the secondary source, while my longstanding knowledge of the contents of my family private papers and my decades of research validating much of those records will be my original primary source.
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perhaps the easiest option at present is to save up the pennies and obtain the Vic BDM digitised image of the d.c. for Letitia, as it seems likely it names her parents.
Reply #139 on page 16 this thread as posted by Jamjar gives the death and details of Letitia (nee MURPHY)
The parents stated there will possibly have been furnished by one of her children and may or may not be accurate.
There are births on the Victorian index for parent couples-
James MURPHY and Ann (variations) DOLAN (variations)
John MURPHY and Margaret DOOLAN (variations)
The earliest listed in 1846 and the latest mid 1870's
Sue
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Yes, Sue's suggestion makes much better sense :).
Re the 1889 article about Thomas MINTON and land and burial plots ...
Rockdale Council’s notice in SMH 18 May 1889 announces two rates to be applied to properties in several council wards, including Scarboro Ward. Among those named in that particular ward is a Thomas MINTON.
Two rates announced, and one is for lighting and Rockdale set their rates at 2d in the £. … as in street lighting. I doubt that all those properties listed across those several wards would be for any cemetery and I also doubt any council would have resolved to provide lighting for burial plots. So Thomas MINTON had two lots, each at £1.10.- so that’s £3, so he owed 4d or so, perhaps 6d for the street lighting and of course 3/- for the general rates. I think no more than 3/6d in total.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13734512
If you look at the entire page you will see other municipal councils making public announcements and for example Macdonaldtown Council’s rates announcement is about lighting the streets with gas and that rate was set at 3d in the £.
PS, I have fathings and ha'pennies in my collection here. :)
Add ... :D :D :D :D :D
I've just realised - those properties for which TM was to be rated in 1889 are probably gravesites???
They cost L1.10s.0d ea. It could just be --- or have been --- the last resting place of Mary and her poor babe ... JM you would know - could that be it? ???
Maud Alice was laid to rest in the Presbyterian Section of Rookwood in December 1882. To save everyone going back through this thread, it is 6B, Zone A, 4244 as per Rookwood General's website
http://www.rookwoodcemetery.com.au/deceased-search-engine
JM
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Maud Alice was laid to rest in the Presbyterian Section of Rookwood in December 1882. To save everyone going back through this thread, it is 6B, Zone A, 4244 as per Rookwood General's website
http://www.rookwoodcemetery.com.au/deceased-search-engine
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JM and Sparret thanks for comments.
Is it usual for the undertaker (Walker Stewart) or the cemetery to make a mistake about date of burial? According to death Certificate Maud Alice was buried 5th December 1882 - Cemetery web-site claims Maud Minton burial as 3rd. Of course handwritten 3 and 5 can be mistaken. I hadn't noticed it with the other dc's but I guess it depends on the undertakers? I think JM suggested babe was buried with an adult? Any idea who?
Date of Burial :
3 Dec 1882
Age : UNKNOWN
Plot : Presbyterian 6B_Zone A/#/4244
Thanks for the info re rates - it was wishful and wistful thinking that Mary and her baby were at least buried together.
It's a pity nothing matched with the 32 year old who turned out to be Anastasia.
I'm waiting to hear from State archives about Mary O'Neil who happens to be the same age as MM; she was admitted to the Newington Hospital a couple of times and died (possibly) in St. Vincent's; the death notices don't mention family but Mrs O'Neil seems to have had good friends - if it is all the same person.
Yes, JM musicians could make a respectable living, and brass bands were popular during mid-late Victorian era so it doesn't surprise about Hense. Thomas also owned a house in Greymouth NZ - but was obliged to sell it to cover debts when he foolishly took on the management of Mac's Hotel as a venue for his music. German bands are a little different to the kind of music in theatres, though.
I've finally unearthed my bundle of papers from when I began researching the family history; back in 2004 I printed up reams of information trying to find concrete links. Some of it is going to save me time when I put it all together and I do have an almost complete picture now with research backing up family stories and information. I do like to be certain of the links - but Mary is still elusive. Someone suggested it was cheaper to get a transcription service to provide certificates; any recommendations?
I think my tablet is about to die ... ???
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Back online.
Grateful for all the tips - but finding MM's birth cert and her parents (which I do intend to do) won't unfortunately tell me what happened to her and where she ended her days - which is really my main focus. I'd like to be able one day to visit her grave and lay flowers there - just to let her know that in a different era the indomitable spirit evident in some of her publicly reported actions is respected, although in the end it may have led to her undoing.
So I will keep looking for connections to the end of M's life and if this involves Foleys or Flecthers or Cooneys or Mintons - and more hours of sifting through records - so be it.
:) :) :)