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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Kat_C on Saturday 07 December 19 00:18 GMT (UK)
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James (something like Engilly) and Mary have daughters Margaret b 1840 and Johanna b. 1844 in Ireland before moving to Massachusetts, USA. Johanna uses the spelling Engilly in the US by 1862 when she married an ex-Cork (maybe) man named Maurice (O')Sullivan in Lawrence, MA. The families are Catholic. James is not in the 1865 US census, but Mary Engily is and listed as a widow born 1805. Mary might have lived in Chelsea, MA in 1863 with the Sullivans. She is in Lawrence, MA in 1865, but dau Margaret died in Lowell, MA in 1860 at age 20. I can not get to an 1850 or 1860 census for Essex county and even Sullivan is misspelled in 1865. Johanna's death records say James Angila and Mary Bowlar are her parents. Co. Cork has some Bowlar families, but I have no idea how James' last name is spelled and where that name might be found in Ireland. Does anyone have a clue?
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Going by the sound I wonder if it could be an attempt at McEnally with the Mc dropped, not a name found much in Cork though.
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Thank you. I will give that a try and see if it leads anywhere,
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James (something like Engilly) and Mary have daughters Margaret b 1840 and Johanna b. 1844 in Ireland before moving to Massachusetts, USA. Johanna uses the spelling Engilly in the US by 1862 when she married an ex-Cork (maybe) man named Maurice (O')Sullivan in Lawrence, MA. The families are Catholic. James is not in the 1865 US census, but Mary Engily is and listed as a widow born 1805. Mary might have lived in Chelsea, MA in 1863 with the Sullivans. She is in Lawrence, MA in 1865, but dau Margaret died in Lowell, MA in 1860 at age 20. I can not get to an 1850 or 1860 census for Essex county and even Sullivan is misspelled in 1865. Johanna's death records say James Angila and Mary Bowlar are her parents. Co. Cork has some Bowlar families, but I have no idea how James' last name is spelled and where that name might be found in Ireland. Does anyone have a clue?
Have you found records for the family in Ireland? Or is everything from the US, where the spelling is apparently distorted?
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I haven't found anything close to the name in any Irish record. Just now, it has been suggested that McAnally or Angley may be the original Irish spelling. There is no reason to think they may be from Cork or Tyrone (where many from Lowell, MA came from), but Limerick has been suggested. It has both Bowlars and Angleys, which is very promising. If I can't find the family or both surnames near each other in church records, I might be able to find distant DNA links to a particular area. Cork and Tyrone have shown up in the few on-line DNA trees and they appear to be the homelands of Sullivans and McCuskers. So the DNA method vaguely works.
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have you tried
https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?givenname=james&surname=angila&birth_place=ireland&marriage_place=US&count=100&offset=0
or
https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?givenname=james&surname=angilly&record_country=Ireland&count=100&offset=0
then I would try http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/index.jsp
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Thomas Anglan and Mary Bowler had a child Ellen, baptized parish of Castlemagner, Co. Cork, 10/11/1833.
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Quite a lot of Anglin/Anglum/Anglum possibilities with father James and mother Mary. But none with Mary Bower and father James, that I see.
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Familysearch is too busy right now. That is the right marriage certificate though, but James may have died in Ireland. A Tithe listing implies money or maybe 20 acres, I thought, which sounds unpromising, but I saw nothing there. I've been to MA Vitals. No death record for James. Johanna 15 and Mary 60 (born 1799!) Engley arrived on the Neptune June 9, 1859. No Margaret/Maggie/etc, so she must have gone to NY first? I was hoping they followed family members, but I've tried every spelling in MA Vitals. Only one Engley in Lawrence and he is not in familysearch. They may not have become US citizens. I finally found the death record -Mary Angelia, died 1880 in Lawrence, MA. Her parents were John Bowler and Mary. Another spelling, but the same pattern. I will try Irish church records tomorrow.
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I really appreciate all this help. I have been totally stumped by this family without a clue where to begin. I don't know if any of the spellings above are correct since spelling varied in Ireland and it was up to whoever wrote documents to guess how things were spelled. However your assistance has given me enough clues that I can begin research in both Cork and Limerick. Thanks so much.
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Did you mention religion - do you know?
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That whole line is Catholic as far as I know and from the names of the US cemeteries. I am going through Griffiths. Newcastle,Limerick has Anglins in Griffiths and Bowlars in church records, but not Johanna's baptism. What would be the name James when found in Catholic records? No one appears to be James, so is there an alternative name?
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Jacobus
https://www.behindthename.com/name/jacobus
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Thank you for the information and the source. I may have to take another look through one parish, but still having no real luck.
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Unfortunately there are quite a few parishes where the records simply aren't extant. We are always somewhat in the position of looking under the lamp posts.
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Actually you may be in luck. Here is a probable/possible (take your pick!) baptism for your Johanna, 2/10/1839, Dingle, Co. Kerry.
Parents James Ennisly, and Mary Bowler.
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/02e2fb0187564?b=https%3A%2F%2Fchurchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie%2Fchurchrecords%2Fsearch.jsp%3Fnamefm%3Djohanna%26namel%3D%26type%3DB%26ddBfrom%3D%26mmBfrom%3D%26yyBfrom%3D1830%26ddBto%3D%26mmBto%3D%26yyBto%3D1850%26locationB%3D%26ddMfrom%3D%26mmMfrom%3D%26yyMfrom%3D%26ddMto%3D%26mmMto%3D%26yyMto%3D%26locationM%3D%26ddDfrom%3D%26mmDfrom%3D%26yyDfrom%3D%26ddDto%3D%26mmDto%3D%26yyDto%3D%26locationD%3D%26member0%3Dp%26namef0%3Dmary%26namel0%3Dbo*%26keyword%3D%26submit%3DSearch (https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/02e2fb0187564?b=https%3A%2F%2Fchurchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie%2Fchurchrecords%2Fsearch.jsp%3Fnamefm%3Djohanna%26namel%3D%26type%3DB%26ddBfrom%3D%26mmBfrom%3D%26yyBfrom%3D1830%26ddBto%3D%26mmBto%3D%26yyBto%3D1850%26locationB%3D%26ddMfrom%3D%26mmMfrom%3D%26yyMfrom%3D%26ddMto%3D%26mmMto%3D%26yyMto%3D%26locationM%3D%26ddDfrom%3D%26mmDfrom%3D%26yyDfrom%3D%26ddDto%3D%26mmDto%3D%26yyDto%3D%26locationD%3D%26member0%3Dp%26namef0%3Dmary%26namel0%3Dbo*%26keyword%3D%26submit%3DSearch)
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Two possibilities for parents' marriage. Neither a perfect match.
First is JOHN Hensly and Mary Bowler, in Dingle, between 11/1823 and 1/1824. Note Griffin witness, - same surname as Johanna's sponsors.
Second is James HIR (very odd surname!), and Mary Bowler, also in Dingle, 25/1/1822.
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/8402130539475?b=https%3A%2F%2Fchurchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie%2Fchurchrecords%2Fsearch.jsp%3Fnamefm%3Dmary%26namel%3Dbo*%26ddBfrom%3D%26mmBfrom%3D%26yyBfrom%3D1821%26ddBto%3D%26mmBto%3D%26yyBto%3D1850%26locationB%3D%26type%3DM%26ddMfrom%3D%26mmMfrom%3D%26yyMfrom%3D1821%26ddMto%3D%26mmMto%3D%26yyMto%3D1850%26locationM%3Ddingle%26ddDfrom%3D%26mmDfrom%3D%26yyDfrom%3D%26ddDto%3D%26mmDto%3D%26yyDto%3D%26locationD%3D%26member0%3Ds%26namef0%3D%26namel0%3D%26member1%3Dp%26namef1%3D%26namel1%3D%26keyword%3D%26submit%3DSearch (https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/8402130539475?b=https%3A%2F%2Fchurchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie%2Fchurchrecords%2Fsearch.jsp%3Fnamefm%3Dmary%26namel%3Dbo*%26ddBfrom%3D%26mmBfrom%3D%26yyBfrom%3D1821%26ddBto%3D%26mmBto%3D%26yyBto%3D1850%26locationB%3D%26type%3DM%26ddMfrom%3D%26mmMfrom%3D%26yyMfrom%3D1821%26ddMto%3D%26mmMto%3D%26yyMto%3D1850%26locationM%3Ddingle%26ddDfrom%3D%26mmDfrom%3D%26yyDfrom%3D%26ddDto%3D%26mmDto%3D%26yyDto%3D%26locationD%3D%26member0%3Ds%26namef0%3D%26namel0%3D%26member1%3Dp%26namef1%3D%26namel1%3D%26keyword%3D%26submit%3DSearch)
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/46d25e0539341?b=https%3A%2F%2Fchurchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie%2Fchurchrecords%2Fsearch.jsp%3Fnamefm%3Dmary%26namel%3Dbo*%26ddBfrom%3D%26mmBfrom%3D%26yyBfrom%3D1821%26ddBto%3D%26mmBto%3D%26yyBto%3D1850%26locationB%3D%26type%3DM%26ddMfrom%3D%26mmMfrom%3D%26yyMfrom%3D1821%26ddMto%3D%26mmMto%3D%26yyMto%3D1850%26locationM%3Ddingle%26ddDfrom%3D%26mmDfrom%3D%26yyDfrom%3D%26ddDto%3D%26mmDto%3D%26yyDto%3D%26locationD%3D%26member0%3Ds%26namef0%3D%26namel0%3D%26member1%3Dp%26namef1%3D%26namel1%3D%26keyword%3D%26submit%3DSearch (https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/46d25e0539341?b=https%3A%2F%2Fchurchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie%2Fchurchrecords%2Fsearch.jsp%3Fnamefm%3Dmary%26namel%3Dbo*%26ddBfrom%3D%26mmBfrom%3D%26yyBfrom%3D1821%26ddBto%3D%26mmBto%3D%26yyBto%3D1850%26locationB%3D%26type%3DM%26ddMfrom%3D%26mmMfrom%3D%26yyMfrom%3D1821%26ddMto%3D%26mmMto%3D%26yyMto%3D1850%26locationM%3Ddingle%26ddDfrom%3D%26mmDfrom%3D%26yyDfrom%3D%26ddDto%3D%26mmDto%3D%26yyDto%3D%26locationD%3D%26member0%3Ds%26namef0%3D%26namel0%3D%26member1%3Dp%26namef1%3D%26namel1%3D%26keyword%3D%26submit%3DSearch)
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Baptism of Patrick Hirr, Dingle, 3/1/1826, parents James Hirr and Mary Bowler
James Ensley, Dingle, 5/10/1827, parents James Ensly, and Mary Bowler.
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You are a miracle worker. That sounds exactly what I was expecting- dates to be off, but something that sounded approximately right for James' last name. I also noticed he was called John when Mary died, but it is common for daughters to forget names then. I think the marriage to John sounds right. James was apparently not from the area as there are no other similar surnames around. The priest probably wasn't familiar with the name and someone took a guess at spelling. I can't believe you found it. I was staring yesterday at the records in Cork noting the Bowler concentrations and Anglins coincided in very few places. None of those church records covered the right times. However, Ennisly has a much closer tie to Engilly than Anglin. There is a Francis Ansley who has some promise as an offspring 1843.
James sounds good. There should be more, I would think. Possibly Margaret is a cousin of Johanna, not a sister, but I think she is a close relative.
Thanks for so much work. I use irishgenealogy for civil records after 1865 as most of my mother's family was from Armagh area and never thought it had more to offer. I am just beginning to explore my father's Sullivans and Engillys after realizing most of my DNA matches take me to his family (so far mostly his mother's well documented English side.) I'm so excited at your discovery.
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Francis is a washout- James Ansley and Bridget Rividen, but may signify that a cousin moved to the area.