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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: fastfusion on Sunday 01 December 19 22:43 GMT (UK)
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Hi there folks. I am seeking a provable solution to the death of my great grandfather Thomas Arrowsmith.,and, additional information regarding some of the other folk mentioned. To give some background to this I will say that "Tom" was the last born child of Edward and Elizabeth Makinson Baptism 28 May 1882 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England. He married Violet Hodkinson [ Marriages Dec 1904 Leigh 8c392 ] and had numerous children including my grandfather [now deceased]. The last born child was found in 1939 in a mental institution which somehow leads to my great grandmother remarrying to John Cox [ Marriages Jun 1945 Horwich 8c974 ]. This is cert reference I believe to be one related to my great grandmother.....Deaths Jun 1955 Cox Violet age 73 Bolton 10b614.;proving death 31st May 1955 and cremation 2nd June 1955. The death of John Cox is at present assumed to be age 70 [b 1887 where? ] died Apr/Jun 1957 Bolton 10b611 with a probate suggesting death 11th June 1957 being of 526 Halliwell Rd Bolton announcing a John Cox butcher......but I can not find any substaining evidence.
The other thought here is lack of a divorce record....???
Now the tree on ancestry indicated 1929 as death, but unfortunately, as the census showed me there was a parallel family in Cheshire and the Thomas of Cheshire through his probate gives money to Frank; which co-incidently the name of my grandfather. I have looked on freebmduk and done the maths against certs, I have looked on Lancs OPC without any success. I am not judging the tree on ancestry because the person who owns the tree came in from a certain branch which was estranged to my branch so their assumption given the records available on ancestry would have linked to the Cheshire line....... So anyone who has time to look at this please put your thoughts forward. Thank you.
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2 deaths stand out for me:
December qtr 1929
Bethnal Green Registration District vol 1c, page 106
Arrowsmith, Thomas R age 49
December qtr 1935
St Helens Registration District vol 8b, page 890
Arrowsmith, Thomas age 56
Age at death somewhat relies on the knowledge of the informer?
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KGarrad> unfortunately Thomas didnt have a middle name , so the first one is out.... St Helens seems a little far from Bolton and Leigh..... this chap was a skip and basket maker too poor to move away from district...... the St Helens one again reflects 1929 which is incorrect.....so i have to discount them.....
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Bolton to St Helens is 20 miles.
Leigh to St Helens is 12 miles.
Seems close enough to me?
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Where do you have Violet in 1939 register and does it state whether she is married/widowed or divorced
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Have any got any of the children's marriage certificates to see if they claim their father as alive or dead?
The proposed death in 1935, St Helens, you have put:'the St Helens one again reflects 1929 which is incorrect.....so i have to discount them'
Sorry, but I do not understand the 'reflects 1929' comment.
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Free bmd has 3 Thomas Arrowsmiths born in 1882, all in the NorthWest.
1939 free search has 2 showing, one living in Suffolk, Have you any information on him?
(Just trying to eliminate any strays).
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Rosie> the 1939 has Violet Arrowsmith {crossed out} Cox at 57 Langshaw Road Bolton, f, 19th April 1884 Married Shop Asst Bread & Confectioner with son Jack Arrowsmith born 12 April 1914 Radio Salesman & Repair. So given the marriage to John Cox...... the suggestion is that Thomas is still alive in 1939.......and dies sometime before 1945.????....given that the 1939 ration cards were effectually changed right up until end of WW2 suggesting the "Cox".
Chempat> I am discounting death year of ancestry tree .........Thomas didn't die in 1929 as Violet states she is still married in 1939.,therefore 1935 death is out at moment... However I am open to the idea that he may have been in Suffolk, BUT, realistically I doubt its him. Now I will show the following which shows Lancs BMD results >
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1882
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
ARROWSMITH Thomas LEATHER Culcheth Wigan & Leigh CUL/36/457
ARROWSMITH Thomas MAKINSON Westleigh Wigan & Leigh WL/30/164 {target]
ARROWSMITH Thomas A Salford Greengate Salford GRE/136/93
So I believe the Arrowsmith[Leather} can't be the Suffolk entry......
Births Jun 1882 Arrowsmith Thomas Leigh 8c 262 [target]
Births Sep 1882 Arrowsmith Thomas Leigh 8c 250
Births Dec 1882 Arrowsmith Thomas W. Derby 8b 482
Births Dec 1882 Arrowsmith Thomas Arthur Salford 8d 91
So the Suffolk entry does have merit but cannot be proved at this moment...... the Anne Lomax in 1939 could be clue to proving by place of birth????? Does she possibly come from around Leigh or Bolton area???? Her birth date was 6th April 1884 but in 1939 she is a widow and anc is not showing me enough information.... and there were 17 marriages of an Annie marrying a Lomax in Bolton alone between 1905 until 1939........but after looking at lancs opc I narrowed to four ....grrrrrrrr. Then out of that I would put serious speculation to >
Marriage: 5 May 1906 St Matthew, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Samuel Lomax - 21, Labourer, Bachelor, 22 Topping St.
Elizabeth Ann Collier - 20, Confectioner, Spinster, 22 Topping St.
Groom's Father: John Lomax, Joiner
Bride's Father: William Collier, Machine Painter
Witness: William Collier; Alice Casstles
Married by Banns by: Albert Lewis Curate
with a LOMAX Samuel age65 in 1936 death Halliwell Bolton HALL/1A/488 1936
and my reasoning for this is I have Collier family further back in tree [ Edwards father was married to Collier ]..... but I have only done this from basis of "does Thomas go to Suffolk?"
With some thought here I realistically need to invest in the Arrowsmith/Cox marriage cert or find an image showing if Violet was widowed.......... as Thomas could have long life dying anywhere up to 1982.......? Another brick wall is divorce entries only go up to 1905 on FindMyPast so how does one find records after that year?
Births Dec 1922 Arrowsmith Clifford [ Hodkinson] Bolton 8c 527 is the last born child.
As for information on marriage> my grandfathers 1st marriage happened before [Marriages Mar 1930 Arrowsmith Frank Homer Bolton 8c409] 1939 so the father Thomas is still alive........and second one> Marriages Sep 1943 Arrowsmith Frank- Wilson Lancaster 8e1579 was an RO one because he divorced. {Noting both Frank & Stella deceased, as with 1st wife and child}
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1939 has Violet Arrowsmith {crossed out} Cox at 57 Langshaw Road Bolton, f, 19th April 1884 Married Shop Asst Bread & Confectioner with son Jack Arrowsmith born 12 April 1914 Radio Salesman & Repair.
So given the marriage to John Cox...... the suggestion is that Thomas is still alive in 1939.......and dies sometime before 1945.????....given that the 1939 ration cards were effectually changed right up until end of WW2 suggesting the "Cox".
The 1939 register was used by the NHS after the war and continued to be updated until the late 1900's. You cannot guarantee that Violets husband was still alive just because she is entered as married in 1939 or he is not mentioned as deceased on his sons marriage certificate. It would certainly be interesting to see what Violets 'status' was when she married John Cox.
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You need to spend some money and get the marriage certificate of Violet, for starters.
As Rosie has pointed out, the 1939 was updated for much longer than 1945. Violet may also not tell the truth on 1939, and on next marriage certificate, but you do not know that without the certificate.
What would be good would be a marriage certificate of one of his children, with his signature as a witness.
If you have discarded all the deaths with age in the correct range for birth in 1882, then someone has given incorrect information on the death certificate, or he has disappeared abroad.
Does he have to be the Father of all those children, or could he have disappeared before the last one? Did he give the information for that certificate? (There was an 8 year gap of births).
Why should his death only go up to 1982- people do live beyond 100. Has he got a war record?
Have you checked ER's for 1920's and 1930's to see if he and wife are at same address?
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the original image of the 1939 shows the original ink as "married"
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You have put :
'Deaths Jun 1955 Cox Violet age 73 Bolton 10b614'
this would put her birth as 1882, but the 1939 has her as born 1884, so you already have some contradictory information for your ancestors.
As regards the 1939, she claimed to be married in 1939. He was not in the household on that day. If he has bunked off, whereabouts unknown, or under different name living locally, how would she know if he is dead or alive?
What is his exact date of birth - then you can search the 1939 for him that way?
Added:
On 1911 she is 24, so born 1887/6, so very different from age at death.
What is Violet's Father's name from the marriage certificate, as the most likely Violet I can see, if born Bolton, was in 1885, and no sign of a father in 1891 or 1901?
Added:
Is he Peter from West Houghton, in 1881?
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the original image of the 1939 shows the original ink as "married"
That does not prove that the information was accurate. There are many discrepancies on the 1939 some of which have altered later if discovered.
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Now one can see all the problems I have faced doing this tree........
Yes informants and liars exist on documents , and that has been the challenge all the way through this lineage........... however, I dont need reminding of the obscurities that we all face doing fh.....and I am in good faith considering and re-considering everything put forward......
Yes she is of Peter Hodkinson and Alice Bradley...Yes the hubbie is absent in 1891 and where the heck does he go?.... and Violet has a lot of siblings..... the 4th child of Thomas and Violet is confirmed even though the gap is huge...... yes I agree the informant on Violets death is mathematically incorrect and I agree that some folk live past 100 and yes given Thomas had a child that ended up in a mental institution he might have up and walked which caused a seperation/divorce or other intrinsic problem..... this brickwall has plagued me for sometime as like the owner of the tree on ancestry found....... and what annoys me more than anything is that the only person who could have solved the mystery being my late grandfather was such a mungrel of a man that he alienated everyone in the whole family including my fathers lines..
I did go through every war record i could find on anc & FindMyPast to no avail
Q. How does one living in Australia find a divorce record for Lancashire AFTER 1905 ?
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Q. How does one living in Australia find a divorce record for Lancashire AFTER 1905 ?
Start here:
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/divorce/
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Q. How does one living in Australia find a divorce record for Lancashire AFTER 1905 ?
Start here:
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/divorce/
You are only speculating that she was divorced, the marriage certificate for Violet & John Cox should give her 'status' at that time.
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You have put:
'the 4th child of Thomas and Violet is confirmed even though the gap is huge...... '
How is it confirmed - the assumption is that the father is the husband of the mother unless told otherwise?
I would be interested in the ER's for the 1939 address in previous year to see who is recorded there with Violet, or where she was in the 1930's.
If he was still alive in 1939, then he should show on the register, which is why you need his birth date to help to find him.
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I would be interested in B O L T O N electoral rolls as well HOWEVER anc only has only Liverpool so unless I am missing something that avenue is a waste of time.
I would like to state I do actually have some of the certificates IE the last born child......
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I would like to state I do actually have some of the certificates IE the last born child......
Was Thomas the informant
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Thomas died before 18th Sept 1942 . He was a Skip & Basket Maker on Franks 2nd marriage cert...... and we should consider ol Frank may not have told truth [ as he did lie about other things , in general he was fairly determined to get what he wanted no matter who was involved ] so the affirmation comes with Violets 2nd marriage cert.....which I will obtain........... I will at this point probably rule out Suffolk material as occupation changed whereas everything I am seeing shows Thomas to retain one occupation .... skip and basket maker.
We did investigate a possible for Australia for ol' Thomas but there were problems when looked at finely.... so I discounted him moving away from Leigh /Bolton area.....
Rosie> got to dig it out..... that could take a while....my notes are about 1 metre along shelf ::)
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Thomas died before 18th Sept 1942 .
How do you know that
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I read the last columns on Franks 2nd marriage certificate.......and then took the date of the certificate to make the presumption. Also written on cert was Franks address> 25 Ingleborough Rd Lancaster with 14652484 Signalman RSG of Signals; radio dealer. Stella Wilson was also of the same abode at time of marriage.
Q. What does RSG stand for?
Noting also from my notes....... I had scribbled down the following but cant find the original from which I sourced it from.... [Could this be Thomas????????] " LN Lancs Pte Thomas Arrowsmith ; age 33; 31.7.15 [1] - C1Z ,- 29.3.19 ......No 28944 moved on to East Surrey Regiment WW1 1914 - 15 Star "
By my calculation though, the note would suggest a Thomas born circa 1883 - 86..... Does one have to be dead to get 1914 - 15 Star?.........
Q. Certificates for Ulverston / Barrow in Furness do not seem to appear on LancsBMD or church details for that area do not appear on Lancs OPC.... is there a website that has transcripts or definitives? I dont really know about that area so any help is appreciated... I have looked through "resources" but can't see any references to sites...
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Ulverston is on Lancsopc
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/cgi-bin/mkindx.cgi?parish=Ulverston&type=Parish&community=
Cumbria BMD has entries for BM&D Barrow reg dist & M&D Millom reg disthttp://www.cumbriabmd.org.uk/
I think you may mean 1943
Marriages Sep qtr 1943
Frank Arrowsmith
Stella Wilson
Lancaster 8e 1579
Sorry I can't help with service information
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sorry twas 1943...... link coming up server error but thankfully the cumbria bmd has gleaned a push on the Stella Wilson lineage......
Robinson born abt 1836 Lancs to Ann X? then 2nd marriage widowed to Mary Foy/Tait in 1889 at B-i-F RO? issue to next generation >William [of 1st marriage ]born abt 1860 and spouse Mary J Heathcock married at Millom in 1881.
Of Heathcock issue to Edith Florence at Bootle 1882, with William 1884, Robinson 1886, Susan 1888, Cedric 1890, Lawrence Barlow 1892, Water [probably Walter]1894, Theodosia 1897, John Henry 1899, and Clarence 1906 all of Dalton.
Robinson the younger to Jane Grundy issue to my grandmother[deceased]with sibs//// but Robinson could have married Mary Gilbert/Rodda in 1908 .
the record showing wife of Robinson born 1836 seems to be illusive.....Ann Isabella Orrick ?????
looking at early gen seems to show jeramiah and jane [Chester ?] as line above for Robinson 1836?
the early census 1841 and 51 seem to be illusive.......
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RSG of Signals? Could it be a misinterpretation of Royal Corps of Signals?
Imber
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I would be interested in B O L T O N electoral rolls as well HOWEVER anc only has only Liverpool so unless I am missing something that avenue is a waste of time.
I would like to state I do actually have some of the certificates IE the last born child......
https://www.boltonlams.co.uk/archives/archives-indexes/election-registers
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Great link for electoral material ..... shame they dont have all the material in pdf format online... unfortunately I am sitting in East Gippsland and cant get to the reading room but oh if I could :( :'(