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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: redclover on Saturday 30 November 19 22:34 GMT (UK)
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Hi, Edward Monaghan was born 11 October 1969 at Ashton under Lyne, baptised at St Mary, Ashton under Lyne on 25 October 1869. He was the son of Ross Andrew and Ann Monaghan.
Ann married James (Joannis) Goulden at St Mary, Ashton under Lyne on 29 September 1870. Her father's name was Thomas Monaghan.
Eventually Edward joined the army in 1886 in Dublin and married Sarah Darcy there in 1890.
His army discharge papers gave his next of kin (mother) as Ann Golding (should be Goulden) of 81 Church Street, Ashton under Lyne.
I have searched hi and low for Edward on the 1871 and 1881 census records. The closest I have come is a possible entry in the 1881 census for Ashton under Lyne which has the following:
James Goolden 42 born Ireland
Annie Goolden 36 born Ireland
Edward Monogue 11 born Ashton under Lyne
RG11, 4036, 51, 15
Any suggestions would be welcome.
Thanks, Richard.
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Possible in 1871 though Ann is supposedly married ?
Fleet Street, Ashton under Lyne
Ann Golden head mar 40 Housekeeper Co Mayo Ireland
Edward " 1 son Ashton under Lyne
John Murphy lodger 56 Stripper Ireland
Owen Carrol lodger 65 Stripper Ireland
Cathy :)
Added... I think she would be too old unfortunately
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The 1871 and 1881 census entries are both from Fleet Street in Ashton-under-Lyne (but different numbers), which might suggest it's the same family. I read Edward's surname in 1881 as Monagem, or possibly Monagen.
Clearly there's something a bit odd about Ann's age, though ages in censuses can sometimes be guesses, and sometimes enumerators may have misread the household forms. What was her age given as when she married, in later censuses and when she died?
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I would think they are both the same family and probably the correct one.
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Hi cath151 thanks for your help.
I saw the record you mentioned and wondered if Edward had adopted his step-father's surname after Ann married James Goulden in 1870.
I found a record in the 1881 census for :
Anne Goulden 50 Widow born in Galway
John Goulden 16 born Liverpool
Mary Goulden 11 born Liverpool
RG11, Piece3593, Folio107, Page66.
A baptismal record from 29 July 1869 for Mary Elizabeth Goulden, at St Albans Liverpool, suggests that Ann was married to John Goulden so unlikely to be our Ann Monaghan. In these records, the age for Ann is consistent and birth in 1831 rather than 1845.
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi arthurk, thanks for your help.
I noticed that both census records listed Fleet Street as the address, but I think this is a coincidence. Checking various sources, I found many, many Gouldens, Gooldens, Goldens etc., all with addresses in Ashton under Lyne. Church Street, quoted as the address for Ann Golding in Edward's discharge papers, is adjacent to Fleet Street.
I found many Goulden families in Lancashire, several for James and Ann as parents. Quite often the family would have several children born at various places in lancashire, but usually one of them would have been born in Ashton under Lyne. Maybe some sort of homing instinct.
You asked about a possible age for Ann Monaghan. The records I have (from Lancashire On Line Parish Clerk Project) for Edward's birth and Ann subsequent marriage, do not list her age. This lack of a birth year is part of the problem in identifying her on the census records. I am coming across too many Ann (Annie) Gouldens (and variants) some with husbands, James Goulden, and some widowed. Makes it very difficult.
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Godmother, Susannah Cullen also in Fleet Street in 1871 and both marriage witnesses are from Fleet Street also.
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Hi Heywood thanks for your input.
I am still to be convinced that the two records in question refer to the same person.
Firstly my reasoning is as follows:
Edward was born illegitimate and his surname was registered as Monaghan on his birth cert. For his mother, Ann, to have changed it to Goulden in 1871, and by 1881 to have changed it back to Monaghan seems unlikely. At the age of 11 Edward seems too young to have insisted on the change.
Secondly there are some additional facts. When Edward signed up to the army in 1886, he gave his next of kin as Ann Goulding, Ashton under Lyne. When he married Sarah Darcy in Dublin in 1890, on the marriage cert, he gave his father's name as Edward Monaghan (deceased).
As he married in a Catholic church in Ireland was he reluctant to admit to the priest or possibly his wife's parents, that he was illegitimate. So he made up a name and declaring he had died explained his absence at the wedding.
Alternatively i wondered if Edward (and wife) had adopted Edward at birth or soon after. This was why I was searching for him in the 1871 census records. The records for Ann Goulden don't support this.
Things aren't helped by a 1901 Census record from Whittington, Staffordshire.
While Edward was serving in South Africa in the Boer war, his wife Sarah (Darcy) was at the Regimental barracks with all her children,
Sarah Monaghan 37 Head
John Monaghan 7
William Monaghan 5
Alfred Monaghan 3
Kathleen Monaghan 1
Susan MORAGHAN 51 Mother-in-law.
RG 13 Piece 2656 Folio 174 Page 19.
So did Sarah assume Susan was Edward's mother or did she know about Ann Monaghan?
Was Susan, Edward (senior's) wife, or did Edward make up the name on his marriage cert to avoid embarrassment. What a family.
Now you see why I am asking for help.
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Hi heywood, yes the witnesses and godparents came from Fleet Street and the address for Ann Monaghan on Edward's birth cert, I am told is also Fleet Street. The address for Ann Golding, as next of kin, in Edward's discharge papers, is given as 81 Church Street, Ashton under Lyne. Church Street and Fleet street were close together and both were lengthy streets with dozens of terrace houses.
The Church Street address was given to the army in 1886 on enlisting at Warrington. I checked the individual pages for Church Street and Fleet Street on the 1881 Census. The family at No 81 were named Dolan, and there was no record of a Goulden, Gouldiing etc. on Church Street. The only family on Fleet Street were the record we have for James and Ann and Edward Monogue.
Similarly I checked the 1871 Census and there was no Goulden at 81 Church Street.
This begs the question, when Edward enlisted, why didn't he give Edward and Susan as his next of kin, but instead gave his true mother's name, Ann. Where did he get the address 81 Church Street from?
His birth cert had Fleet Street, and anyway he apparently falsified his age and told them he was 18 when he signed up in 1886, when in fact he was only 17. So he could not have produced his birth cert then.
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Edward was born illegitimate and his surname was registered as Monaghan on his birth cert. For his mother, Ann, to have changed it to Goulden in 1871, and by 1881 to have changed it back to Monaghan seems unlikely. At the age of 11 Edward seems too young to have insisted on the change.
It's not uncommon for illegitimate children to be known sometimes by one surname and sometimes by another. In this case, perhaps in 1871 they were trying to show they all belonged together in one family with the same name, but possibly by 1881 it had been pointed out that strictly speaking Edward's surname would be Monaghan. I don't really see it as a problem in itself.
Secondly there are some additional facts. When Edward signed up to the army in 1886, he gave his next of kin as Ann Goulding, Ashton under Lyne. When he married Sarah Darcy in Dublin in 1890, on the marriage cert, he gave his father's name as Edward Monaghan (deceased)...
As he married in a Catholic church in Ireland was he reluctant to admit to the priest or possibly his wife's parents, that he was illegitimate. So he made up a name and declaring he had died explained his absence at the wedding.
Alternatively i wondered if Edward (and wife) had adopted Edward at birth or soon after. This was why I was searching for him in the 1871 census records. The records for Ann Goulden don't support this.
Things aren't helped by a 1901 Census record from Whittington, Staffordshire.
While Edward was serving in South Africa in the Boer war, his wife Sarah (Darcy) was at the Regimental barracks with all her children,
Sarah Monaghan 37 Head
John Monaghan 7
William Monaghan 5
Alfred Monaghan 3
Kathleen Monaghan 1
Susan MORAGHAN 51 Mother-in-law.
RG 13 Piece 2656 Folio 174 Page 19.
So did Sarah assume Susan was Edward's mother or did she know about Ann Monaghan?
Was Susan, Edward (senior's) wife, or did Edward make up the name on his marriage cert to avoid embarrassment.
I don't have time to do it myself just now, but it would be worth looking further into this Susan and her possible husband Edward. What can you find out about them from earlier censuses - ages, where from etc? Any other children?
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Thanks arthurk for the suggestions. After hitting, a temporary brickwall I hope, with Ann Monaghan, the two areas I intend to pursue are 1) Ann's father Thomas, from her wedding to James Goulden and 2) who was the 'mother-in-law' Susan and was her husband actually Edward? Keep you posted if I find anything.
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There is a Militia Attestation June 30th 1886 at Preston
Edward Monaghan aged 18 from Ashton under Lyne
N. Lancs Regiment no 1014 (Ithink)
Address of residence 71 Fleet Street
No details of next of kin or service.
Usual first page and 2nd page description etc.
Cathy
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Firstly my reasoning is as follows:
Edward was born illegitimate and his surname was registered as Monaghan on his birth cert. For his mother, Ann, to have changed it to Goulden in 1871, and by 1881 to have changed it back to Monaghan seems unlikely. At the age of 11 Edward seems too young to have insisted on the change.
You can call yourself what you like without changing it legally unless it is for fraudulent purposes.
ADDED I may have missed this but who were the witnesses to James and Ann's wedding
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Rosie99, i agree with your comment about name changes, I just wondered how James Goulden would view his wife's illegitimate child. I wonder if the child's surname would depend on who actually filled out the census forms, his mother or his step-father?
As regards the witnesses to the wedding, according to the LOPClerk project they were Jacobus Murry? Fleet Street and Maria Kelly, Fleet Street.
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cath151, yes that would be our Edward Monaghan. Rechecking his discharge papers, he indicated that prior to joining the Kings Own Lancashire regiment in Dec 1866, he was in the Loyal North Lancs regiment (presumably the Militia).
It is interesting that he gave his address, in June 1866, as 71 Fleet Street, just next door to 69 Fleet Street quoted in the 1881 census record for 'Edward Monogue'. The odd thing is that he then gave the address of Ann 'Goulding' as next of kin in his enlistment in December as 81 Church Street. If his mother had moved from Fleet Street to Church Street in the previous six months then he must have been living at home or in contact with his mother.
So when did the Step-parents Edward and Susan come on the scene?
Added: I meant to ask, where did the Militia Record come from?
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It is available on Findmypast.
Cathy :)
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Where were the family in 1911? I can’t see them and have looked for a possible death for Susan/Ann but nothing yet.
There are a couple of things to consider:
Edward’s marriage shows Sarah Darcy’s father as John, a Porter
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1890/10717/5907010.pdf
This may be her birth (not named) but parents as John (Porter) and Susan
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1870/03361/2232567.pdf
Here is her baptism
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01op7/
I wonder if Susan has been wrongly named in 1901. Sarah’s mother was Susan - Edward’s mother was Monaghan :-\
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Just to add another couple of references:
Ancestry records Lancashire Quarter Sessions records February 1864 show
Ann Monahan, Servant, Ashton under Lyne as a witness. There is no other information but it might be worth noting.
I have tried looking for any other information in newspaper snippets on FindMyPast but can see nothing.
There is however, a marriage notice of her marriage to James Goulden. I have no access but doubt that there is much more.
Lastly, there is this entry in 1861 2980/100/11
Onney Monahan, 23yrs b Ireland.
She is boarding in Fleet Street A u L.
Onney is usually short for Honora which is also often Hanora and Ann is a version.
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Hi Heywood, off the top of my head, I can only answer one of your queries, You ask where the family where in 1911.
Edward was discharged from the Army in 1910 in Jersey. The family then moved to Erdington in Birmingham. The 1911 census has the following:
Edward Monaghan 42
Sarah Monaghan 41
Annie Monaghan 18
John E Monaghan 17
William Monaghan 16
Alfred Monaghan 13
Kathleen Monaghan 11
Mary Vete (Zeta?) Monaghan 5
Hun (Ileen) Monaghan 3
Frank Monaghan 1
Class RG 14, Piece 18339
The names Annie and John E are crossed out because Annie was a domestic servant at Crumpsall Infirmary, Manchester (Annie Managhan) on the 1911 census and John E was at Regent Fort, Jersey (Edward Monagham) on the Channel Islands census that evening.
Frank (Francis) died in 1921, Sarah Monaghan died in 1924 and Edward Monaghan died in 1937.
I'll look at your other suggestions tomorrow.
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Thanks - found them in 1911 now - bad transcription.
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heywood: As regards the Dublin birth, yes I had picked up on the birth of Sarah Jane Darcy on 16 Jan 1870, the image of the Parish register is on Ancestry.
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=61039&h=7692235&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=hkU1664&_phstart=successSource
When I searched Irish Genealogy I found John Darcy's marriage to Susan Magee
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/b8c0f10039387?b=https%3A%2F%2Fchurchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie%2Fchurchrecords%2Fsearch.jsp%3Fnamefm%3Djoannes%26namel%3Ddarcy%26exact%3Dtrue%26location%3Ddublin%26yyfrom%3D1867%26yyto%3D1867%26submit%3DSearch
I also found that John and Sarah had a prolific family.
The births are on Irish Genealogy.
Georgius Darcy 2/9/1868
Sarah Jane Darcy 16/1/1870
Maria Elizabeth Darcy 23/2/1872
Susanna Darcy 18/1/1874
Anne Darcy 7/9/1875
Elizabeth Darcy 20/9/1877 (possibly died at 18 months)
Jo? Joseph Darcy 2/11/1879
Elizabeth Darcy 14/1/1882
Christina Darcy 8/6/1885
All very interesting but not sure whether these siblings will help in the research.
There is a civil record for the death of Susan Darcy (Dublin) in 1893.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-perform-search.jsp?namefm=susan&namel=darcy&location=Dublin&yyfrom=1893&yyto=1893&type=D&submit=Search
If this is the same person, then taking into account your comment about Sarah's mother in law on the 1901 census, I don't see any discrepancy. Sarah's mother was Susan Darcy, her mother in law was Susan Monaghan (mis-transcribed as Moraghan). A look at the original photo clearly shows the name as Monaghan. She is listed as married so presumably Edward was still alive maybe in Dublin.
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There is an interesting record on the 1881 census for Dukinfield, Ashton under lyne.
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=try&db=uki1881&h=1808585
Thomas Monaghan 40
S??lA (Susannah) Monaghan 36
Mary Monaghan 9
Susanah crossed out, but very difficult to decide what the name has been replaced with. The year of birth wouldn't be too different than that of Susan Monaghan on the 1901 census.
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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heywood: The Lancashire Quarter Sessions record for Ann Monaghan of Ashton under Lyne is certainly interesting, especially when you look at the Onney Monahan 1861 census record. Living at 51 Fleeet Street, it seems in all these records, all roads lead to Fleet Street, Ashton under Lyne.
There is another record in the 1861 census
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1861&indiv=try&h=23421388
Showing Onney Monagan (mis-transcribed as Enney Monagan) a 23 year old working as a servant, living in Warrigton, same details except for the address.
Your comment 'Onney is usually short for Honora which is also often Hanora and Ann is a version'.
I suppose Hannah would be in this mix. When I first looked at the marriage details for Ann Monaghan and James Goulden, I translated the name Annam Monaghan as Hannah Monaghan.
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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There is a civil record for the death of Susan Darcy (Dublin) in 1893.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-perform-search.jsp?namefm=susan&namel=darcy&location=Dublin&yyfrom=1893&yyto=1893&type=D&submit=Search
If this is the same person, then taking into account your comment about Sarah's mother in law on the 1901 census, I don't see any discrepancy. Sarah's mother was Susan Darcy, her mother in law was Susan Monaghan (mis-transcribed as Moraghan). A look at the original photo clearly shows the name as Monaghan. She is listed as married so presumably Edward was still alive maybe in Dublin.
This lady looks likely to be the Susan Darcy of Drumcondra - marriage 1876 John Darcy and Susan O’Rorke.
Husband John is in 1901 - a widower with children.
I only comment to say that errors do occur on records and I just noticed the names, that was all.
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Just for noting
1891 3276/33
46 Fleet Street A u L
Ann Goulden, lodger, widow, 55 yrs b Kilmainham, Ireland
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This lady looks likely to be the Susan Darcy of Drumcondra - marriage 1876 John Darcy and Susan O’Rorke.
Husband John is in 1901 - a widower with children.
I only comment to say that errors do occur on records and I just noticed the names, that was all.
Taking this into account, I looked for any other record for a Susan Darcy (death)in Ireland without success. I did however find a death record for Susan Darcy in Birmingham in 1916. This is where Edward and Sarah settled after his discharge from the Army. Her age fits as well.
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=7579&h=18681888&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=hkU1724&_phstart=successSource
On this basis I looked for her in England rather than in ireland and found her, I believe, in the 1911 census.
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1911England&indiv=try&h=20060628
She is in North Manchester at the house of Michael and Mary Murray. The record shows Mary's maiden name as Darcy and birth year as 1872. Checking Irish Genealogy they have a record for the birth of Maria Elizabeth Darcy, daughter of John and Susan on 1st march 1872.
Looking back at your earlier comment about the 1901 census record with Susan Monaghan (mother in law), as you suggested, should this have read Susan Darcy, mother?
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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A thought that just occurred to me, we had Edward and Sarah's marriage cert with Edward (deceased) as the father. Edward may have put this in to avoid embarrassment due to his illegitimacy.
Then we have a possible error in the 1901 census record for Sarah Monaghan and family showing Susan Monaghan as mother in law.
Edward quoted Ann Golding as his mother in the army discharge papers.
I spent some time looking for his 'adopted 'parents, Edward and Susan Monaghan. I wonder if they ever existed?
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I would doubt that there was a father Edward.
You have:
Edward Monaghan baptised 1869 parents Ross Andrew and Ann Monaghan.
Does Edward’s birth certificate show a father?
Ross Andrew marries in 1874
It looks as though mother was Ann, no father but invented father on marriage and an error re mother’s name in later census.
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Yes the baptismal entry shows the father as Ross Andrew and the mother as Ann Monaghan.
A relative obtained a copy of the birth certificate and told me that it has Ann Monaghan as mother but the space for father is blank.
From what i can gather, both the Monaghan and Andrew families lived on Fleet Street so maybe the father, Ross Andrew was 'persuaded' to attend the church ceremony.
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Maybe - I am not sure if it would be compulsory for his attendance at the baptism but I think he would have to be there if his name was entered on the civil certificate.
The Andrew family lived close to Fleet Street on Mill Lane.
Ross Andrew died in late 1890s, leaving a substantial amount of money, it would seem.
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I see what you mean.
I gather the £5354 he left would be about £700,000 in today's money.
How does an 'overseer of rates and collector' amass that sort of money by the age of 47?
His father James died in 1880 and left £400.
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His wife, Mary Ann died 1929 and left £4000+
Perhaps he invested well.
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Just for noting
1891 3276/33
46 Fleet Street A u L
Ann Goulden, lodger, widow, 55 yrs b Kilmainham, Ireland
I thought I had seen County Mayo as a birthplace for Ann (if it is the right one)
Here it is
1901 3785/118/2
Ann Goulding 64 yr widow b County Mayo
Now would Kilmainham (1891) and County Mayo (1901) sound similar to an untrained ear?
There is a death in 1908, Ann Goulding 66 yrs.
Does that fit into your time line for Edward’s records?
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Just for noting
1891 3276/33
46 Fleet Street A u L
Ann Goulden, lodger, widow, 55 yrs b Kilmainham, Ireland
I thought I had seen County Mayo as a birthplace for Ann (if it is the right one)
Here it is
1901 3785/118/2
Ann Goulding 64 yr widow b County Mayo
Now would Kilmainham (1891) and County Mayo (1901) sound similar to an untrained ear?
There is a death in 1908, Ann Goulding 66 yrs.
Does that fit into your time line for Edward’s records?
Kilmainham and County Mayo wouldn't sound the same to me, but I lived in Ireland for seventeen years and know the importance of Kilmainham. To the untrained ear maybe.
As a district of Dublin, Kilmainham is a very specific place whereas County Mayo is very general. Who knows.
The death of Ann Goulding in 1908 would fit. Worth some investigation especially as Edward indicated his mother was Ann Goulding, in his discharge papers. Maybe she adopted this spelling later in life.
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Yes I agree re the two places sounding different to someone in the know.
Generally too, place of birth was either Ireland, or County ... but all forms are found.
Kilmainham might have been known as Ashton had a military barracks but again - who knows.
We have Meenaghan in Mayo and I see Monaghan there too. My Mayo Golden great grandmother is also Goulding on at least one record but Ann seems to be Goulding mostly.
Hopefully, though you have got a bit closer to solving your Edward’s origins.
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The most promising record for Edward, son of Ann Monaghan is the 1881 census record showing James Goolden, Ann Goolden and Edward Monogue.
RG11 Piece 4036 Folio 51 Page 15
This gives Ann's year of birth as 1845 and place of birth as Ireland.
Checking Irish birth/baptismal records for 1840-1850, I have only found two possibles.
Anna Monaghan baptised 1844, daughter of Thoma Monaghan and Brigida Brien, at Saggart on the edge of Dublin.
Ann Monaghan baptised 24/7/1842, daughter of Thomas Monaghan and Bridget Monaghan, at Kildress, Tyrone.
I think it's time to step back, gather together all the records and review what we have. Thanks.