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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: sng165 on Tuesday 26 November 19 16:41 GMT (UK)
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I have the marriage cert of Agnes Garvin (aged 18) from Livesey (Blackburn, Lancs area) to Lawrence Fish 22 Feb 1915. (I already have most information on Lawrence Fish). It’s Agnes I’m struggling with.
It shows her father as Thomas Garvin (Iron Moulder*) Deceased.
I wondered if I had selected the correct Thomas Garvin
Thomas Garvin 1859-1912 (born in Armagh, lived & died in Wigan)
He was a widower when he Married widow Jane Beattie nee Carson in 1889 (from USA)
Jane had 2 children Martha & Robert Samuel Beattie.
Thomas & Jane then had Elizabeth & Mary (per 1891 & 1911 census in Wigan)
Thomas's job is shown as Blast Furnace Labourer - ties in with Iron Moulder on Marriage Cert*
The 1901 census had Elizabeth & Mary (Gars?!) aka Garvin living with Martha & Robert Samuel Beattie in Wigan with a family called Wood (no sign of Jane or Thomas?)
The only Agnes Garvin, although age (b1902) & area (Warrington) are very slightly amiss, appears on the 1911 census at Poulton with Fearnhead Workhouse/Industrial School (later Padgate Cottage Homes).
My theory is that something happened to her/their parents – early 1900’s – when all/most kids went to live with the Wood’s; but do I have the correct Thomas Garvin & why was Agnes separated from the rest? & why did she not return to her parents on the 1911 census.
Thomas Garvin then died in 1912
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Have you seen this baptism from Lancashireopc
4 Apr 1896 St Mary and St John the Baptist (Pleasington Priory), Pleasington, Lancashire
Agnes Garvin - filia Catharina Garvin
Born 4 Mar 1896
Godparents John Joseph Gurney, prox. Georgius Margerison; Anna McCort
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beat me to it Rosie - new PC and had been logged out of Rootschat
Not unusual for a deceased father to be invented for a marriage certificate
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Thanks Rosie.
Are you saying Catherine Garvin was a single mum? and he was invented for the marriage certificate?
All these other people I've traced and attached are probably unrelated!
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Yes Agnes appears to be illegitimate.
I suspect Catherine could be living in Blackburn in 1891 age 29 - RG12/3408 f24 p43
. Now eliminated
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I will restart this tomorrow
Thank you very much
Be back in touch if I grind to another halt
Much appreciated ladies 😍
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Pure speculation but I wonder if this is her birth registration as I can't see one as Garvin
CATTERALL, AGNES Mothers maiden surname GARVIN
1896 June Quarter in BLACKBURN Volume 08E Page 496
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1901 Agnes Catterall is in Livesey with her mother Catherine
RG13/3928 f49 p21
Catherine Catterall 44 bn Blackburn
Christopher 16 bn Blackburn
Agnes 5 bn Livesey
Same place in 1911.
Certainly worth investigation
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Rosie -- I suspect you may be correct with that birth registration.
On Lancs BMD there is also an Agnes Catterall - mother's maiden name Garvin in 1896. The sub registration district is Witton -- which may have covered the Livesey area at that time -- they are adjacent areas of Blackburn.
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Christopher’s birth was registered as Catterall (mmn Garvin), Jun qtr 1885 Blackburn.
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Catherine Garvin m Christopher Catterall, Sep qtr 1877 Preston (reg office or reg attended).
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Sub district on Lancs BMD for Christopher Catterall's birth simply shown as Blackburn.
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I'm assuming something has happened in the marriage. There's some other children in the family in 1891, including an Elizabeth aged 2. There's an Elizabeth Alice Garvin (no mmn) born the right time
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There's also a Charles - here's his baptism
12 Oct 1878 St Mary RC, Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Charles Caterall - Filius Christopher Caterall & Kate (formerly Garvin)
Born: 8 Oct 1878
Godparents: Thomas Purt; Mary Rogers
PLus another
9 Jan 1887 St Mary RC, Blackburn, Lancashire, England
William Catterall - Filius Christopher Thornber Catterall & Catherine (formerly Garvin)
Born: 1 Jan 1887
Godparents: Robert Burns; Mgt. Ann Garvin
So looks like it may have been between 1887 and 1889
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Charles and Agnes are with mother in 1911
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Wow this is great
Thank you
If anyone is agnes's (step/estranged) father then, are you saying it could be Christopher cattrall? Is that her mums ex?
Blackburn area is certainly more plausible than Wigan as far as agnes is concerned
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sng -- it would be worthwhile obtaining the birth certificate found by Rosie earlier -- she was born as Agnes Catterall with a mother's maiden name of Garvin in 1896 Blackburn Reg Dist.
Just in case you don't know you can order a pdf copy from General Register Office for £7. This gives exactly the same information as a normal birth cert. All the associated evidence - such as baptism confirms that Christopher Catterall was father and Catherine nee Garvin was her mother.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
If you haven't ordered from General Register Office before you will need to register first, otherwise just log in. Then go to 'search the on line GRO index' - input search details - when result appears - tick the box on the left hand side and order a PDF copy.
Having the birth cert itself gives definite proof.
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Wow this is great
Thank you
If anyone is agnes's (step/estranged) father then, are you saying it could be Christopher cattrall? Is that her mums ex?
Blackburn area is certainly more plausible than Wigan as far as Agnes is concerned
No, I more think that Christopher is off the scene in around 1888/9 (given Elizabeth is registered as Garvin) and is very unlikely to be Agnes' father, given none is named on her baptism. If you get to see an image of the 1911 census, the years married listed by Catherine (Cathrine on Ancestry) would support him not being Agnes' father
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Having the birth cert itself gives definite proof.
The birth certificate is really needed but it is not definite proof that Christopher is her father if he is mentioned. The fact that Catherine was married to him she could still name him. I do not think he is her father as otherwise he would have been mentioned on the baptism.
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I've now "tidied up" my tree & deleted all the incorrect Garvins!
I've sent for the .pdf birth cert. (I've used that before thanks).
Whilst searching for the Christopher (Thornber?) Catterall, I noticed there's one in Preston on the 1861/1871 census (father James) with what appears to be a military background?? maybe that's the reason for his absence(s)??
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Yes, the Christopher Catterall b abt 1856 Gibraltar, with parents James and Catherine in Preston in 1871, looks a good possibility. He was at that stage a drummer, 3rd Royal Lancs Militia.
Birth reg for a sister:
Alice Catterall, mother’s maiden name Osborn, Mar qtr 1860 Preston 8e 424.
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Christopher Catterall b Gibraltar joined the 7th Brigade in August 1876 (aged 19yrs 6mo) as a musician, and served as a drummer. His service record shows that he had secondary syphilis by 1880. He served in the Army Reserves from 1883 and was reported absent (his final entry) on 18 October 1887.
His next of kin were his father James and siblings Thomas, James, Alice and “Leavey” (Olivia). His records were never updated with marriage details.
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Christopher Catterall b Gibraltar joined the 7th Brigade in August 1876 (aged 19yrs 6mo) as a musician, and served as a drummer. His service record shows that he had secondary syphilis by 1880. He served in the Army Reserves from 1883 and was reported absent (his final entry) on 18 October 1887.
His next of kin were his father James and siblings Thomas, James, Alice and “Leavey” (Olivia). His records were never updated with marriage details.
That would tie in well with the births of William & Elizabeth c1887 /8
The records also note that he is C of E. He was serving in Ireland c1880/82 so maybe why we have not located the family on the 1881 census
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In 1881, "Kate" Catterall (Daughter b1856) is on 1881 Census with, Mary (Widow) Esther & Margaret "Gavan" in Blackburn
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I am so sorry to have inferred that Christopher WAS the father of Agnes -- I have been guilty of 'speed reading' again and had completely missed the baptism details for Agnes at Pleasington Priory showing just her mother's name. I had seen the other baptisms showing presumably her brothers with both parents names. (I must do better!)
Pleasington Priory is around the corner from both Livesey and Witton (Witton being the sub district of Blackburn, shown on Lancs BMD as where her birth was registered). Hence the locations for the birth of Agnes are definitely fitting in with the one found.
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In 1881, "Kate" Catterall (Daughter b1856) is on 1881 Census with, Mary (Widow) Esther & Margaret "Gavan" in Blackburn
I was looking in 1881 for young Charles with his mother :)
CATTERALL, CHARLES mmn GARVIN
1878 Dec Quarter in BLACKBURN Volume 08E Page 395
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This is just a snippet really -- but I notice from records that 4 of Christopher and Catherine's children died.
The baby, William - born in 1887 - died aged 7 months and appears to be buried on his own in grave number N 5859 at Blackburn Cemetery. The burial record on Deceased on Line shows him as son of Christopher and Catherine.
I think this is odd. It's so unusual for a baby to be buried in a plot on their own. I was hoping to find members of the family buried in the same grave as each other - but I'm not having much success.
Looks like son Christopher b 1885, may have died in 1908, aged 22.
Catherine Catterall, may have died in 1919 aged 63 - but again she isn't showing up as buried in Blackburn Cemetery under that name.
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Catherine Caterall
Death 15 feb 1919
Cemetery: Pleasington Priory
See https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/197866402
Looks like Charles and his wife Mary Ann are also buried in the plot
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What a brilliant find Mabel -- I love it when actual headstones can be seen.
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Christopher Catterall b Gibraltar joined the 7th Brigade in August 1876 (aged 19yrs 6mo) as a musician, and served as a drummer. His service record shows that he had secondary syphilis by 1880. He served in the Army Reserves from 1883 and was reported absent (his final entry) on 18 October 1887.
His next of kin were his father James and siblings Thomas, James, Alice and “Leavey” (Olivia). His records were never updated with marriage details.
I'm wondering if he's ended up in a hospital/asylum in 1891, given the potential effects of syphilis.
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That's a possibility Mabel -- my own Gt Grandfather did from the same cause!!
Christopher doesn't seem to appear in Lancs Archives Catalogue though - so if he did end up in an asylum it wasn't Whittingham - as the admissions there have been catalogued.
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In 1881, "Kate" Catterall (Daughter b1856) is on 1881 Census with, Mary (Widow) Esther & Margaret "Gavan" in Blackburn
These may be birth registrations of Catherine & sisters in Blackburn. All with mother's maiden surname CONNER/CONNOR.
1855 GAVAN Catherine
1859 GARROVAN Esther
1874 GARRAVIN Margaret Ann
+ 1862 GAVAN Charles
1864 GAVAN John
1869 GAVAN John Thomas
1872 GARVIN William Henry
www.lancashirebmd.org.uk
Baptisms for all except Catherine and Esther at St. Mary R.C., Blackburn. Parents Charles GARVIN & Mary (formerly CONNOR). Godfather to baby Charles 1862 was Patrick KILLAN. A Mary Killen was married to a Thomas Garvin. A Thomas Garvin was godfather to John GARVIN 1864.
Lancashire Online Parish Clerks www.lan-opc.org.uk
St. Mary R.C., Blackburn was founded 1860, too late for baptisms of Catherine and Esther. It was the 3rd mission, in addition to St. Alban and St. Anne, serving the Nova Scotia area of Blackburn.
www.lan-opc.org.uk/Blackburn/Blackburn/stmaryrc/index.html
Confirmation register of St. Mary includes some Garvan &c. children. Margaret Ann is there.
Margaret Ann was godmother to Wiliam Catterall in 1887.
St. Alban was founded c1773. Baptisms 1856-1870 are not on LANOPC. St. Anne mission was established 1848/9.
2 marriages at St. Anne.
7th Nov. 1857 Thomas GARAVAN & Mary KILLIAN; groom's father Charles GARAVAN
12th Feb. 1859 Peter GARAVAN & Mary HERBERT; groom's father Charles GARAVAN
Marriage 1854 Blackburn registry office or registrar attended. Charles GARVIN & Mary CONNOR
Death registration Blackburn 1878 GARVIN Charles age 44
www.lancashirebmd.org.uk
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This is all terrific
Thank you so much
Much appreciated :-*
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LANOPC has no marriages for St. Alban and no baptisms 1856-70. It has St. Anne marriages 1852-87 but no baptisms. If the family remained in the same area of Blackburn, Catherina and Esther were likely to have been baptised at either church, unless their mother was from another parish and she went to her own family to have her first babies. (One of "my" Irish mothers in Lancs. did that.)
Information about the churches + dates and locations of registers on GENUKI
https://www.genuki.org.uk/church_list/LANBlackburn
St. Alban had a graveyard which was in use until 1854. The burial register listed covers only 1827-1837 and is at Lancashire Archives. Baptism and marriage registers (various dates) are also at Lancs. Archives.
St. Anne baptism registers 1862-1925 and marriages 1852-1930 at Lancs. Archives.
St. Mary baptisms 1861-1940 and marriages 1862-1986 at Lancs. Archives.
I didn't check dates of founding of other Catholic churches in Blackburn.
This may have been another member of the extended family, married at St. Anne's 1866.
Philip Brady & Ann Garvin; father Charles Garvin; witness Thomas Killan.
There were several Catherines Garvin/Gavin in St. Mary's parish. There was more than 1 Wiliam Henry Garvin/Gavin. There were at least 2 Gavin-Nolan marriages. There may have been more than 1 Garvan-Connor marriages, although I've only seen evidence for 1.
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A lodger in Charles Garvan's house was charged with assault. ("Blackburn Standard" 18th March 1863)
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Agnes's birth cert finally received. (attached)
As suspected, Christopher is named as father.
I've corrected her birth from 1898 to 1896, and I've now started work on Agnes's parents families - the Garvin's (Garavan') & Connor's
Thank you all so much for your input & help
:D
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sng
Thank you so much for the update. It's no wonder you struggled with this one - with her surname not being Garvin as you naturally thought.
Upwards and onwards!!
Gladstone St in the Livesey area of Blackburn does still exist, but it's all industrial units now.
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Thanks all
ps: I've also tracked the dishonest lodger :-\ , thanks "Maiden Stone"
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Thank you for letting us know. It is good to see that the date of birth on the certificate is the same as mentioned on her baptism.
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I wonder if the occupation "Corn miller" on the birth certificate was genuine? If true, was Christopher a miller at any time or did the real father of Agnes work in a corn mill?