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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Outlaws on Tuesday 26 November 19 09:35 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to find my 3rd great grandfather. Born we think in 1836
He has a son John Richards born in Bolton 1861 can’t confirm his mother’s maiden name
John RICHARDS was married in Felling Durham in April 1885 to Elizabeth Fee his Father’s name was shown as George Richards - Photographer
I have been unable to trace George through ancestry or find my past
Just wondering if anyone can help me establish his identity
Thanks OUTLAW
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Perhaps this birth for John?
RICHARDS, JOHN WILLIAM CHARNLEY
GRO Reference: 1861 S Quarter in BOLTON Volume 08C Page 301
I'll check marriages and see if this is likely.
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Well I've found a George C Richards photographer living at 175, Warde Street, Hulme, Chorlton, Lancashire with his wife Hannah and son also called George C Richards.
This is in the 1861 census
Registration district Chorlton
Enumeration district 52
Archive reference RG09
Piece number 2898
Folio 60
Page 2
I'll look at the 1871 for this family and see what that says.
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Not finding anything likely looking at all.
Is it possible that John was illegitimate and therefore made up a father's name on his marriage cert?
I cannot find anything in the 1861 or 1871 that would fit George photographer.
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Is this your John in 1891?
Living at Railway Street, Ryhope, Sunderland, Durham with wife Elizabeth and children Henry, Elizabeth and Mary J.
Also with them is his brother George born 1860 coal miner as is John.
Registration district Sunderland
Archive reference RG12
Piece number 4140
Folio 111
Page 71
The image states John was born in Manchester. I'm pretty sure this is your John as there are birth registrations for the two girls.
RICHARDS, ELIZABETH FEE
GRO Reference: 1888 S Quarter in HOUGHTON LE SPRING Volume 10A Page 488
RICHARDS, MARY JANE FEE
GRO Reference: 1890 S Quarter in SUNDERLAND Volume 10A Page 624
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Hi thanks for the quick reply
I too have found a George richards in the 1861 census being a photographer, however I don’t thinkHannah is John’s Mum. I have also sent for the birth certificate showing CHARNLEY as a maiden name but I can’t track any relationship between her and George RICHARDS.
I do know that there is still a photographers in Durham using the name Richards. I have emailed them, but had no reply. I shall try to ring them.
I too have have had no results in 71/81 census. Someone somewhere must know something! I’m just having my dna analysed so that might throw up a clue. I’ll keep hunting. Thanks
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Yes it is my John Richards. His daughter Elizabeth was my grandmother. I have all their details with lots of family photos. I know his brother George and him were cole miners living in Ryhop, but still no mention of Dad George Richards. So that’s whom I am looking for.
I can find no marriage listed between George & Hannah, but I think she was born in Whitehaven
Thanks
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Have you followed brother George at all? Did he marry? He was still single in 1891.
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Hmm interesting......
I have found a George in 1901 living at 7 Senhouse Street Senhouse Lane, Whitehaven, Cumberland
Birth year given as 1860, birthplace Bolton, Lancs and occupation coal miner.
His wife is called Margaret and appears to be nine years older, born 1851 in Whitehaven
This is what is really interesting me:-
Marriages Mar 1894
Richards George Chippendale Whitehaven 10b 853
Stoup Margaret Whitehaven 10b 853
You will have to decide if you wish to get this marriage certificate.
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Hmm interesting too. I’m just not sure if this George C Richards is actually my John Richards brother
I’ll check in later after as I’ve got to go out now. Thanks for your help appreciate it.
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Looks like Margaret may have been telling porkies about her age
STOUP, MARGARET IRVIN
GRO Reference: 1843 J Quarter in WHITEHAVEN Volume 25 Page 165
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By 1871 Hannah has returned to her birthplace of Whitehaven - shown as married - with children:
George 13 (should be 11) born Bolton
John 11 (should be 9) born Manchester
Maria Louisa 5 born Newcastle upon Tyne
Henry 3 born Blythe, Northumberland
Alice 1 born Whitehaven
Note: family recorded as 'Richardson' 1871 but births of children confirm registered as Richards, mmn Shepherd. Ironically, the only birth I can't find is John's himself.
In 1881 John Richards is a Boarder in Boldon, Durham but George is still with mother in Whitehaven. Hannah still shown married.
1891 - transcribed as 'Richard' Hannah is still in Whitehaven, now a widow, and described as 'Photographers widow'.
Hannah Richards died June quarter 1895 Whitehaven.
So, having confirmed this is the right family, we are left with the enigma George Richards who only appears on one census as George C. Richards bc.1836 Brussells, Belgium - Photographer. Which, if any, of this information, is actually correct?
No marriage (in UK) between Hannah Shepherd/var. and said George C. Richards.
Annette
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Ah, so I should have looked at the 1861 image for George. FindMyPast have got on their transcription, Billington as George's birthplace.
So did he marry in Belgium perhaps which is why we can't find a marriage? Or did they not marry at all?
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According to this:-
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:2:3CY7-MTD
George's middle name is Charles.
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According to this:-
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:2:3CY7-MTD
George's middle name is Charles.
This is only someones submission (like Ancestry's trees) with no evidence to say his second name was Charles. All we know is from 1861 census and that he stated he was 'George C'.
Annette
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I guessed it was a fairly old submission as the submitter didn't know Hannah's maiden name. I couldn't see any sources for the info.
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It seems he was indeed (or so he says) George Charles Richards - although John born in Manchester (where they were in 1861) must have gone to Whitehaven later that year as John Richards was bp.24/11/1861 Whitehaven, son of George Charles Richards and Hannah. Three other children: Maria Louisa, Henry and Alice were all baptised 21/11/1869 Whitehaven.
Eldest son, George Chippendale, also baptised Whitehaven, 6/5/1860.
Annette
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Found George C Richards in Bradford, Yorkshire in 1871 - he's shown as a Boarder, Marr. but has got 5 years younger as now aged 30, born Brussels, Belgium and a Photographer.
Annette
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Seems George Charles and Hannah had an earlier child also baptised at Whitehaven i.e. Sarah Ann Richards bp.25/12/1857. Birth Dec.qtr.1857 Whitehaven - mmn Shepherd. Hannah was only 17 (born 1840). In 1861 Sarah Ann is with her maternal grandmother in Whitehaven.
Just found that George Charles Richards and Hannah Shepherd did indeed marry. GRO have made an error in their original indexing. Found a Hannah Shepherd marriage Mar.qtr.1857 Whitehaven ref.10B 644. However, sharing this page reference are 2 females and only 1 male! Checked for Richards in Mar.qtr.1857 on original GRO index pages and duly found George Charles Richards - he has the correct ref. no. details i.e. Volume 10B, page 644 BUT whoever wrote it in original handwritten index has written the district as 'Whitechapel' instead of Whitehaven which explains why the marriage hasn't been found before.
So, I would say the next step would be to purchase this marriage certificate - however, if I was you I would only order it in the name of Hannah Shepherd, don't mention the groom by name at all.
Annette
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Free index for 1911 suggests George Charles Richards is still alive aged "70" and in an institution in Barnstaple, Devon.
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Seems George Charles and Hannah had an earlier child also baptised at Whitehaven
i.e. Sarah Ann Richards bp.25/12/1857. Birth Dec.qtr.1857 Whitehaven - mmn Shepherd.
Hannah was only 17 (born 1840).
In 1861 Sarah Ann is with her maternal grandmother in Whitehaven.
It looks as if their daughter died
Sarah Ann RICHARDS age 4
1862 M Quarter in WHITEHAVEN Volume 10B Page 394
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Thank you all for your amazing messages re George Richards. I had already found quite a few details which correspond to your chats, however none of us seem to actually be able to prove that this George is John RICHARD’s father as we cannot confirm his mother.
It would appear that a child named John lives with Hannah & George but whether it is my actual great grandfather still cannot be proved as whom the mother is remains an enigma!
Thank you for the hints of marriage certificates, I shall certainly obtain one
Thank you for confirming that the name Richardson has been transcribed rather than Richards. I am still new to researching
Outlaw
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He was baptised as a son of Hannah and George, as found earlier at reply #16.
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Thank you all for your research I shall send for the relevant certificates. It would still be lovely to discover who in fact was John Richards mother, but I guess that might have to remain a mystery. However as you all say you are sure he was part of this Richard/Shepherd family, so that has to satisfy me at present
Outlaw
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I really don't understand why you are doubting that Hannah was his mother. Clearly, this family moved around constantly and it was probably due to this that John's birth registration got overlooked (doubt it was a deliberate act). He wasn't yet born on 1861 census (7/4/1861) when family were in Hulme, Lancashire and, like his siblings, he was baptised in their mothers birthplace of Whitehaven 7 months later on 24/11/1861, showing his parents as George Charles Richards and Hannah. He is stated as her son on 1871 census, and George as his father when he married.
I might have had doubts if he hadn't been baptised either but he was!
George Charles Richards and Hannah Shepherd married 1857 Whitehaven, eldest child Sarah Ann born and baptised there 1857, son George Chippendale born 1859 Bolton, baptised in Whitehaven 6/5/1860, in 1861 George and Hannah in Hulme, Lancashire (Chorlton District), with John born in Manchester sometime between7/4/1861 and 24/11/1861 (the latter when baptised at Whitehaven). Maria Louisa was born 1865 Newcastle upon Tyne, Henry born 1867 Blythe, Northumberland and then back to Whitehaven where Alice born 1869 and where Hannah and the children remained (all 3 of these children baptised 21/11/1869). Son William born 1871 Whitehaven but not baptised until 30/1/1876.
I really don't think there is any doubt that Hannah was his mother.
Annette
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I have no doubts either Annette. To me the evidence is overwhelming that John is the son of George and Hannah.
As we know it wasn't compulsory to register the birth of a child until 1874. It is more than likely, as you say, that his birth registration got overlooked with the moving around the family did.
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Thank you both so much for your help. I have now listed George & Hannah as the parents of John Richards. You are all so knowledgeable and I have lots of info regarding Hannah’s parents as well.
Will you help me some other missing relative?
John Robertson, born approx 1854 in Scotland. My great grandfather on my fathers side. I know lots about him he married Elizabeth Pearson from Cupar Fife, I cant trace either the birth certificate or the marriage certificate
He is on the 1871/81/91 census
I have all their children including my grandfather Harvey Young Robertson
I would love to know more about where he came from and who his parents are if you can give me some idea where to look. I am on ancestry & findmypast thanks Outlaw
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For Scottish ancestors most people look here
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
If I recall correctly certificates won't be available until around 1864. Before that it will be parish registers.
I'm sure someone will be along to clarify the dates.
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Thank you appreciate your reply
Outlaw
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Will you help me some other missing relative?
John Robertson, born approx 1854 in Scotland. My great grandfather on my fathers side.
I know lots about him he married Elizabeth Pearson from Cupar Fife
I cant trace either the birth certificate or the marriage certificate
He is on the 1871/81/91 census
I have all their children including my grandfather Harvey Young Robertson
Can I confirm that this is the 1891 census?
Wallsend, Northumberland
Piece: 4220 Folio: 121
John Robertson 37 Scotland occ Blacksmith
Elizabeth Robertson 36 Scotland
Robert Robertson 15 Sunderland, Durham
John Robertson 12 "
Alexander Robertson 11 "
Christina Robertson 9 "
Margaret H H Robertson 6 Wallsend Northumberland
David Robertson 4 "
Andrew Robertson 2 "
Harvey Y Robertson 2/12 "
Was Robert their first child?
If so, they could have married in Durham
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Yes that’s the correct family thank you. I have tried looking under Durham as I’m sure they weren’t married in Scotland. Any help,you can give me would be appreciated thanks OUTLAW
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Meant to confirm that Robert was their first child thanks OUTLAW
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You are, I think, going to have fun with the Robertson family!!
In 1901 they are recorded as Robison, and in 1881 as Robson - indeed, sons John and Alexander both registered as Robson!
One lead is that on 1881 census (as Robson) John states he was bc.1853 Spittal, Berwickshire and Elizabeth bc.1854 Coldstream, Berwickshire.
Annette
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Also on the 1881 census is James Pearson, lodger who was probably Elizabeth's brother. He also gives his birthplace as Coldstream, Berwickshire
Chris
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Their son Robert is registered as ROBISON in the Mar Qtr 1876, Sunderland
I can't find a marriage though
Chris
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Thank you all for your great advise. I shall have fun looking all your suggestions up.
OUTLAW
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On the 1911 census, Elizabeth Robertson, widow states she has been married 32 years. This put the marriage at approx 1879
Chris
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Thank you. I have a copy of Harvey Young ROBERTSON’s birth certificate (my grandfather) born 5th February 1891 showing his mother’s maiden name as Elizabeth Robertson nee Pearson, that’s where I got the connection for her from.
I thought her parents were John Pearson & Christina Sharpe and that her birth was listed as Cupar Fife.
I shall keep hunting thanks
OUTLAWS
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Sorry Robert Pearson not John
OUTLAW
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One lead is that on 1881 census (as Robson) John states he was bc.1853 Spittal, Berwickshire and
Elizabeth bc.1854 Coldstream, Berwickshire.
Also on the 1881 census is James Pearson, lodger who was probably Elizabeth's brother.
He also gives his birthplace as Coldstream, Berwickshire
On the 1911 census, Elizabeth Robertson, widow states she has been married 32 years.
This put the marriage at approx 1879
Sorry no luck finding the elusive marriage for Elizabeth Pearson to John Robertson/Robson ???
There is this 1861 census with a brother and sister together , all born Coldstream
maybe a possibility for Elizabeth Robertson nee Pearson :-\
Address: 28 Duke Street Coldstream Berwickshire
John PEARSON 42 occ. Shoemaker Journeyman
Catherine Pearson 36
John Pearson 14
Margaret Pearson 12
George Pearson 10
Robert Pearson 8
Elisabeth Pearson 6
James Pearson 4
Andrew Pearson 7 Mo
Betty RICHARDSON 80 mother
This appears to be Elizabeth Pearson on 1871 census
1871 census Address: 30 Duke Street Coldstream Berwickshire
Elizabeth Pearson age 16, Coldsm, berwick, Boarder Occupation: Servant Domc
Sinclair Knox 67
Catherine Brown 68
And in 1871 James with his mother and one sibling
1871 census. Address: 24 Duke Street Coldstream Berkshire
Catherine PEARSON Head age 46, Coldstream berwick
Occupation: Shoemakers widow Under Washerwoman
James Pearson 14
Andrew Pearson 10
1851 census Address: East Market Place Coldstream Berwickshire
John PEARSON Head, age 32 Coldm, Berwickshire Occupation: Shoe Maker
Catherine Pearson 24
John Pearson 7
Margaret Pearson 5
George Pearson 3
Elizabeth Pearson 70 Mother
1841 census address: Coldstream Duke Street
John PEARSON age 20 Berwickshire, Scotland. Occupation: Shoem Ap
Elizabeth Richardson Age 55 occ Ag Lab.
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Thanks for the update. It would seem that Betty Richardson is in fact the grandmother of Catherine
I can’t find a wedding either I’ll keep trying.Outlaw