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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: huey1 on Thursday 21 November 19 23:50 GMT (UK)

Title: lee family
Post by: huey1 on Thursday 21 November 19 23:50 GMT (UK)
I am trying to clarify census results for this family
1901 census shows James Mitchell Lee and wife Julia Anna her m/s was Martin M 25jul1883 Belfast
UHF she is listed as John Anna ,James died 1910
also listed wrongly is John Evelya Anna female age 9 and Ana Kathleen William female age 4 along with brother James
The 1911 census has the sisters listed as Eselyn Anna female age 19 and Nora female age 14 with there mother Julia
on UHF I believe I have found them correctly as Julia Evelyn Anna recorded as J E Lee b1891 died 09sep1953 and a birth for Norah Kathleen Willison b09jul1896 father James Mitchell lee and mother Julia Martin  no death record that I can see or where the Willison came from.
thx for any help or opinion
huey1
Title: Re: lee family
Post by: Sinann on Friday 22 November 19 00:12 GMT (UK)
National Archives has the same errors
1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Clifton/Old_Park_Road/962609/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000318490/
And 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Clifton/Clifton_Park_Avenue/144922/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001429222/
You can submit corrections.



Title: Re: lee family
Post by: huey1 on Friday 22 November 19 19:54 GMT (UK)
Hi Sinann
I have reported the changes
huey1
Title: Re: lee family
Post by: PearsonKenneway on Monday 23 March 20 11:37 GMT (UK)
Not sure if this is a long shot but I have a
Thomas Lee 1885
Married
Isabella McCargo 1883-1944

Children are
John Standish Lee 30/3/1914
James Lee 12/3/1920

All Antrim area
Let me know if these could match up to your lines
Title: Re: lee family
Post by: Kiltaglassan on Monday 23 March 20 17:12 GMT (UK)
Not sure if this is a long shot but I have a
Thomas Lee 1885
Married
Isabella McCargo 1883-1944

Children are
John Standish Lee 30/3/1914
James Lee 12/3/1920

All Antrim area
Let me know if these could match up to your lines

Errrrhh, Thomas Lee married Ellen Halfpenny.
Marriage 1906
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1906/10141/5689941.pdf

John Standish 1914   MMN Halfpenny    #238
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1914/01414/1581143.pdf

From GRONI…. https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk/
U/1920/56/1007/43/328  James Lee   12th March 1920   Male   MMN Halfpenny    Belfast

Other children:
Joseph Patrick Isidore 1908   MMN Halfpenny    #60
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1909/01627/1651413.pdf

Thomas 1909    #229  (died 1909 – premature birth)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1909/01595/1641242.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1909/05446/4523916.pdf

Elizabeth 1910    #69
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1910/01552/1627776.pdf

Thomas Francis 1912    #333
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1912/01475/1601035.pdf

1911 census……..three born, two still living
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Clifton/Crumlin_Road/183765/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001529475/

KG

Title: Re: lee family
Post by: huey1 on Tuesday 24 March 20 17:19 GMT (UK)
Hi
Thanks all for the info I haven't looked at this family for a few months will let you know of any connection

huey1
Title: Re: lee family
Post by: popierson on Wednesday 23 November 22 05:27 GMT (UK)
My great grandfather, James Mitchell Lee, was a school master, in a state school I think. He died, age 50, on 27 October 1910 and is buried in Belfast City Cemetery. My great grandmother, Julia Anna Lee, was a teacher. She died at the age of 83 and is buried in the same grave, H2 33. The family lived at 140 Cliftonpark Avenue, Shankill, Belfast.

My paternal grandmother was born in Belfast in 1896. Her name was Norah Kathleen Willison Lee. I have her birth certificate. When her father died in 1910, she came to the U.S. at the age of 14. There is some thought that she sailed from Liverpool and arrived in Canada. I’m not sure where this information came from or if it is correct.

There were four children. James Mitchell Lee Jr., 1884-1937. He and his wife, Glyndys, are buried in a separate grave. They had no children. Julia Evelyn Anna, 1891-1953, is buried along side her parents. A son, Robert Bertram Fox, died at the age of two months in 1893. He too is buried with his parents. My grandmother was the youngest.

My grandparents married in Chicago. I have their marriage certificate. My father, Allan James Pierson Jr, was born in Chicago in 1916. He was the eldest of seven.

I don’t have any information prior to my great grandparents. The family was Presbyterian so I am assuming Scots-Irish.
Title: Re: lee family
Post by: Jon_ni on Thursday 24 November 22 02:04 GMT (UK)
Popierson

Obviously you are familiar with https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp

so this is the burial you mention https://online.belfastcity.gov.uk/find-burial-records/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=6279.35839
and this the headstone image https://belfastcity.plotbox.io/static/images/plots/belfastcity/115086/18849.jpg
from https://discovereverafter.com/search-results?search_first=julia&search_last=lee&p_sname=on&county=2

Census shows not only that Julia was a Schoolteacher but Evelyn a Monitoress 'a female student who helps keep order or assists a teacher in school'.

1911 census. Additional Pages: 2. image confirms house number as 140 Cliftonpark Avenue, a large Victorian terrace, is still there (just, was boarded up 2008 & 2 adjacent have been replaced if look back in time) https://goo.gl/maps/fohqSjh2oUos6GNT7.
The transcription errors on the names for both Julia & Nora mentioned previously by huey1 & Sinann [replies 1 & 2] have not been corrected for the 1901, obviously no one doing them since John Grenham stopped March 2019. https://www.johngrenham.com/blog/2019/03/25/my-census-correcting-comes-to-an-end/

Strange gap in births, though see there were no other children from GRONI index which includes mother's maiden surnames. James was in Belfast in the same area the entire time - confirmed from street directories on PRONI so whilst the Belfast Council burial & death cert for Robert shows Grays Hill, Bangor that must have been a very temporary posting (or summer holiday) as Street Directories record him at 71 Benwell Terrace, Oldpark Road 1892, 1894, 1895, 1896, 1897, 1899, 1900, 1901 + the daughter's births. Recorded as Principal of Argyle Place School from 1897.

James Mitchell Lee (Martin) 17 May 1884 at 60 Perth Street (off Old Lodge Road, behind Crumlin Road Courthouse).
Julia Evelyn Anna, Robert Bertram & Norah at 71 Benwell Terrace a block of terrace houses on the OLDPARK ROAD opposite Benwell Street (or Hillview Street as it is now).

# James Mitchell Lee & Julia Anna Martin married Eglinton Street Presbyterian 25 July 1883; fathers James Lee & James Martin, both full age = over 21.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1883/10938/5997453.pdf

"Return showing the Ages and Length of Service of National School Teachers in the service of the Commissioners of National Education on 31st March 1905, and where furnished, their places of education"
https://www.nationalarchives.ie/article/list-of-teachers-employed-by-the-commissioners-of-national-education-on-31-march-1905/
pdf page 7: Lee, James Mitchell, aged 45 yrs, 6 mths (on 31 Mar 1905). Length of Service 26 yrs, 7 mths. Educated MAGHERAFELT No2 Boys, Magherafelt. [Teacher] Training College = Marlborough Street [Dublin]. Serving Co. Antrim in Argyle Place as Principal = Argyle Place National School. [Magherafelt gives you bit more precise location than the 1901 census born Co. Derry].

Julia was Assistant Teacher same school, aged 49 yrs, 10 mths and educated Model School, Belfast; she did not attend a Teacher Training College but had served as a teacher for 34 yrs 4 months (longer than James so presumably a pupil teacher eg at 14-16).

URNEY Street (off Shankill Road) left hand side: Argyle Place Mixed N.S. - Principal, J. M. Lee then 2,4,6 etc / Surnames A-Z: Argyle Place Mixed N.S. - J. M. Lee, principal, Urney Street
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/tuvcomplete1907.htm Recorded as Principal there 1907, 1908, 1909, 1910 & 1912 Directories, after than someone else, so slight delay in the name change after his death.
So school was beside/behind Argyle Place Presbyterian Church on Shankill Road, with Argyle St on the other side of the church. Now = "West Kirk Presbyterian" & the two streets have disappeared either side of it https://goo.gl/maps/9nWPf7NW5Xi6rDR6A ]
 
The Education (Ireland) Act 1892 made attendance compulsory from ages 6 to 14 in urban districts, extended to rural districts by the Local Government (Ireland) Act 1898. However, there were many exemptions and enforcement was patchy. Previously pupils typically left 12-13.
Between 1843 and 1867, a network of 26 interdenominational District Model Schools was established
‘to promote the united education of Protestants and Roman Catholics in Common Schools; to exhibit the best examples of National Schools; and to give preparatory training to young teachers."
some lengthy background:
https://www.qub.ac.uk/sites/irishhistorylive/IrishHistoryResources/Shortarticlesandencyclopaediaentries/Encyclopaedia/LengthyEntries/Education/
https://mural.maynoothuniversity.ie/9689/1/TW-National-2016.pdf

National School Register records are held by PRONI - likely find your grandmothers in it, but is just name, age, residence, years attended & days attended + score in reading writing etc so won't reveal anything new.
Title: Re: lee family
Post by: Jon_ni on Thursday 24 November 22 06:01 GMT (UK)
this is James Martin's death 5 Dec 1907 aged 76 at 140 Cliftonpark Avenue registered by son-in-law James M Lee.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1907/05516/4545931.pdf
The Belfast Telegraph 5 Dec 1907 has Martin - December 4, at the residence of his son-in-law, 140 Cliftonpark Avenue, James Martin. Funeral private. [James Mitchell Lee's notice is in Belfast Telegraph 28 Oct 1910 placed by widow 'Annie Lee', similarly brief]

Occupation fits on this census but not the age. James Martin aged 65 Flax-dresser, with sons Robert 39 & William 41.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Shankhill/Agnes_Street/947546/
It is him though and he is interred with wife Sarah Jane + sons James & Robert (a bachelor from 112 Upper Malvern St) in the City Cemetery https://online.belfastcity.gov.uk/find-burial-records/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=6123.32904 in H2-34 with the Lees in adjacent H2-33 and with the Lee headstone image attached to both plots on Everafter.

189 Agnes Street (Sarah's address at death 1900) is 189. Martin, J., flax dresser in the 1901 Belfast Street Directory https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/acomplete1901.htm
The LDS did not microfilm the backs of the 1901 census household return forms in the 1960's so we can't see if the actual house number differs from the enumerators reference.
James M Lee again registered her death.

She I think is Sarah Jane FOX with her age at death being inaccurate [also where Robert Bertram Fox got his 2nd forname on his birth, death & burial records 1893] This is their MARRIAGE 1853 at Cairncastle, Church of Ireland, north of Larne.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1853/09452/5424572.pdf

Also interred same plot is presumably their youngest son, with all the others born pre-1864:
James Fox Martin born 1st Sep 1870 at 12 Canning's Court, father James Martin (Plasterer!), mother Sarah Jane nee Fox [death 1906 aged 30 on burial or 32 on GRO] He was married according to the death but informant was the Infirmary, have not identified a marriage.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1870/03338/2223536.pdf
and death at Belfast Workhouse Infirmary of Typhoid (subsequently City Hospital, 51 Lisburn Road) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1906/05549/4556751.pdf

Although the birth registration says Plasterer - James Martin, Flaxdresser is recorded in 1863/4 and 1865 Street Directories at 12 CanningS Court, off Shankill Road
https://streetdirectories.proni.gov.uk/media/Mq-ccDFAvuy3xnMQsr5Xng..a
and 1870 at 12 Canning Court https://streetdirectories.proni.gov.uk/media/wq7aoIKVYZ74FeKLt8fmvg..a
He had moved by 1877 (perhaps to to 100 Cupar Street) but 1880, 1884, 1887 was at 209 Agnes Street https://streetdirectories.proni.gov.uk/media/VvdBwB5pFk3v6GAx7XsXrQ..a
and 1890, 1892 & 1895 was living at 189 Agnes Street
https://streetdirectories.proni.gov.uk/media/59P2N5fF4LFLa8F_fjDk2g..a
Title: Re: lee family
Post by: Kiltaglassan on Thursday 24 November 22 07:47 GMT (UK)

I don’t have any information prior to my great grandparents. The family was Presbyterian....


Assuming that you have this, but here's the link to your gt grandparents marriage-
James Mitchell Lee married Julia Anna Martin on 25 July 1883 at Eglinton Street Presbyterian Church, Belfast. Fathers James Lee (a farmer) and James Martin (a flax dresser). Witnesses - Sarah Jane Lee (a sister of James?) and Robert Martin (a brother of Julia?).
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1883/10938/5997453.pdf

From - https://apps.proni.gov.uk/WillsCalendar_IE/WillsSearch.aspx

Full Abstract :
Probate of the Will of James Mitchell Lee late of Ardenlee 140 Clifton park Avenue Belfast School Teacher who died 27 October 1910 granted at Belfast to Julia Anna Lee the Widow.
Date of Grant:   12 December 1910
Effects:    £919 1s. 3d.

Title: Re: lee family
Post by: gaffy on Thursday 24 November 22 16:37 GMT (UK)

My great grandfather, James Mitchell Lee, was a school master, in a state school I think. He died, age 50, on 27 October 1910 and is buried in Belfast City Cemetery ...

... I don’t have any information prior to my great grandparents. The family was Presbyterian so I am assuming Scots-Irish ...


Given everything posted thus far, I'm just throwing this in as a possibility from transcripts I've seen, there are inconsistencies in the surname and forenames, but it looks promising:

- the baptism of a Sarah Jane Lees on 1 November 1857 in First Presbyterian, Magherafelt, parents recorded as William Lees and Mary Mitchell of Dunamoney [perhaps the Sarah Jane Lee witness to the 1883 marriage of James Mitchell Lee and Julia Anna Martin?];

- the baptism of a James Mitchell Lees on 28 October 1859 in First Presbyterian, Magherafelt, parents recorded as William Lees and Margaret Mitchell of Dunamoney (there is a comment that says 'James' appears above the father's christian name). 

Notwithstanding the inconsistencies in recorded forenames and surname, note the following civil registration for a marriage that took place on 8 March 1855 in Magherafelt Church of Ireland between a James Lees, a farmer residing in 'Donamoney' and a Mary Mitchell (fathers recorded as John Lees, a deceased farmer and Richard Mitchell, weaver):

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1855/09494/5441061.pdf

Here is Dunamoney townland, immediately east of Magherafelt:

https://www.townlands.ie/londonderry/loughinsholin/magherafelt/magherafelt/dunamoney/

Title: Re: lee family
Post by: gaffy on Thursday 24 November 22 18:17 GMT (UK)
OK, way more speculative stuff now.  Again trying to take you back a generation, and looking at the bride in that 1883 marriage record of Julia Anna Martin to James Mitchell Lee, I can see a transcript of a baptism for a 'Juliana Marten', it was a Church of Ireland baptism in the parish of Carrickfergus, on 2 August 1854, parents recorded as James Marten, a flax dresser and Sarah Jane Marten.  So not quite in the right age bracket, but just to note until such times as you can rule it out.

Title: Re: lee family
Post by: Jon_ni on Thursday 24 November 22 18:45 GMT (UK)
Gaffy
Quote
OK, way more speculative stuff now.  Again trying to take you back a generation

see my reply #8 had typed the details this morning, have just bulked it out with some more links for ease.
James Mitchell Lee registered both his wife's parents deaths 1900 & 1907 and the burial shows a [son] James Martin, birth registration James Fox Martin, with the Fox surname continued into the Lee family as Robert Bertram Fox Lee.

James Martin & Sarah Jane Fox married Cairncastle near Ballygally 5 Aug 1853, both of Millbrook, west of Larne https://goo.gl/maps/bMGsZAjn28RZziex8 that baptism does have the right fornames & occupation.
No father recorded for James Martin but Sarah's father Robert Fox was an [Army] Pensioner.

Taking your speculative 1855 Lees marriage & names of Dunamoney find
William Lees, aged 65 died 11 Mar 1879 https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1879/06532/4882552.pdf
and Margaret Lees , aged 85 died 7 Nov 1895
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1895/05918/4680337.pdf registered by sons Samuel & Joseph.
Title: Re: lee family
Post by: popierson on Friday 25 November 22 15:13 GMT (UK)
WOW! You all are amazing. I am very new to this so everything here is a treasure trove. My cousins and I are going on a research trip to Belfast in October 2023. It's a serious research trip, led by Donna Moughty. I'm trying to bring my knowledge/skills up to the group standard. I'll be off to the LDS genealogy center next week for help in how to decipher and organize all this info. I'm in Richmond, VA. Does anyone know of a professional genealogist in Virginia I could consult? For a fee of course. I'm finding the organizing part difficult/overwhelming.
Title: Re: lee family
Post by: Jon_ni on Friday 25 November 22 16:49 GMT (UK)
Work your way through the Genealogy tab on https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/irish-roots.html and you will find info on most of the basic things. Neither Ancestry nor Familysearch websites have access to the Irish BMD images north or south, just older indexes with less info. The census records on both those websites link to the Irish National Archive ones, as can see above none of us have needed to use either when researching, though Ancestry would likely hint eg the census and Will as weblink collections + BMD index entries as construct. Gaffy has I suspect though utilised a sub to RootsIreland to find the baptism transcriptions on https://rootsireland.ie/derry/online-sources.php and I used a sub to Findmypast to check out the Belfast Telegraph death notices, sister site the standalone British Newspaper Archive.
Many people construct their tree on Ancestry and tie things together there, one can add weblinks or custom sources eg to the BMD records. Personally I find the tree facilities on Familysearch more cumbersome and being a global tree there others can input to it both correctly and incorrectly.

can also explore the links on
https://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/tutorials/overseas/best-websites-for-irish-ancestors/
https://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/tutorials/northern-ireland-family-history/

If you are visiting in 2023 you can order up open and photograph the 1910 Will in PRONI as transcript is not online but stored there. Is the Probate year you need rather than the death year. Also the other two for
Lee Julia Anna of 38 Old Cavehill Road Belfast widow died 12 July 1937 Probate Belfast 11 October 1937 to Evelyn Lee spinster. Effects £29 2s.
Lee Julia Evelyn Anna of 38 Old Cavehill Road Belfast spinster died 9 September 1953 at Royal Victoria Hospital Grosvenor Road Belfast Administration W/A (limited) Belfast 23 February 1955 to Dorothy Tempest married woman. Effects £2338 5s. 1d.

Their other resources are on https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/information-and-services/public-record-office-northern-ireland-proni/search-archives-online and you will need to get to grips with their eCat and think of what you want to look at with references to save time there https://www.irishfamilyroots.com/post/researching-at-proni

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/publications/index-school-collections
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/publications/guide-church-records
For example 1st Magherafelt records start 1771 so possibility of further progress there as well as the ones already mentioned and there are transcriptions as CR codes as well as the microfilms. The references CR3/13; D2725/6; D1926/1-2; MIC1P/450 MIC1P/460 are mentioned in the church pdf guide but I would want to see what they are and the date ranges.
In the eCat I would input CR3/13* in the box against PRONI Ref: with 50 results per page (rather than browsing) to bring up more details of each of the codes. CR3/13/A/1A = Register of baptisms 25 September 1813-7 April 1861. Adding the star asterisk brings up all sub entries.