RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: jenwren on Saturday 16 November 19 10:56 GMT (UK)
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Hi Folks,
Hope I'm posting this in the right section...
I know you're an intelligent, helpful bunch - good folk have assisted in the past. My brick wall (one of them!), despite researching on an off for over a decade, is my 4th g-grandfather, Richard Haworth, born 1808-1811, depending on which document is used as reference, died 7 June 1868, buried 10 June 1868 in Lancashire, England. Death notices appeared in England and Australia, where his son was living (where I live), and I have the death certificate, which says 58 when he died (no parents, naturally!).
There are many others (26 trees on 'that' site, to which I've subscribed, again) who have him born 6 April, parents as Matthew Haworth and Sarah Thick.
For a while, I went with the masses, but it niggled that neither parents' names follow down through the main branch, or smaller branchlets (I've explored them all as far as I can). Then, I came across a transcript of a footnote, attached to the baptism of Richard, son of Matthew and Sarah. This is where I need help, please.
"Footnote: 'I certify that Richard HOWARTH appeared before me and declared that he was born 6.00am Apr 6 1811 and produced a Family Bible with an ancient entry to that effecr' (sic) dated 3 Aug 1868."
Ignoring the name spelling (interchangeable even within families, depending on who did the recording, am I right in assuming the entry was made on the day of said Richard's visit? Or am I wrong?
I'll be immensely grateful for others' take on this.
Jen
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I read it as the visit was made 3 August 1868 and, therefore, cannot be 'your' Richard who died 2 months before then.
Annette
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Thanks, Annette. I read it as the same.
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Unless of course it was made by somebody else who needed confirmation of Richard's birth for something to do with the winding up of the estate.
Pheno
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Is this your Richard in 1861? Living at 139, Park Road, Toxteth Park, West Derby, Lancashire
Wife is Ann, seven children listed along with MIL Amelia Roper
His occupation is given as sail maker employing 2 men and 2 boys - born Liverpool, Lancs
Does any of the above information match anything that appeared on the death certificate?
Registration district West Derby
Archive reference RG09
Piece number 2705
Folio 68
Page 12
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Hi
Can I ask about a baptism to Thomas and Betsey nee Brown 9.2.1810
It 's at St Nicholas.
Father a tailor of Gt Cross Hall St
Sister Sarah bapt 4.9.1811 could well be the Sarah Haworth witness to Richard's marriage.
She seems to marry at St James Toxteth 22.9.1835 to Ricjard Hallman Brown mariner.
She is of Walton Hill.You could compare the signatures.
Just a thought
Ciderdrinker
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There is a baptism for a Sarah Haworth born 3/4/1812 baptised 13/5/1812, parents Matthew and Sarah maiden name T(hr)ick. Father's occupation cordwainer.
These are the same parents for the baptism of Richard born 6/4/1811, bap 14/8/1811. Father's occupation boot maker which is the same as cordwainer. Mother's maiden name Thick
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Hi
Can I ask about a baptism to Thomas and Betsey nee Brown 9.2.1810
It 's at St Nicholas.
Father a tailor of Gt Cross Hall St
Sister Sarah bapt 4.9.1811 could well be the Sarah Haworth witness to Richard's marriage.
She seems to marry at St James Toxteth 22.9.1835 to Ricjard Hallman Brown mariner.
She is of Walton Hill.You could compare the signatures.
Just a thought
Ciderdrinker
Ciderdrinker - agree with this possibility BUT parents are Richard Haworth and Betsey nee Brown - they married 26/3/1809 Liverpool St. Peter and at the time of the marriage he was a Pawn Broker.
Another possibility is Richard Haworth bp.18/6/1809 Liverpool son of Thomas Haworth (Merchant) and Catherine/Katherine Robinson who married 8/12/1802 Holy Trinity, Liverpool.
Both of these marriages by Licence.
Annette
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On the marriage certificate for Richard Haworth and Ann Roper on 31.3.1835, there are two witnesses these being Sarah Haworth and Edward Hilton.
Marriage was at Walton on the Hill.
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I've seen these declarations of previous baptisms made when the family were non-conformist and the children had not been baptised in the local church, but privately somewhere else. Could that be the case here?
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He's the Richard who was buried in Walton on the Hill, abode Kirkdale - right? What was the name of his wife and children?
If your Richard married Anne Roper,then the following may be helpful (or may not but we can hope!) --
as one of the witnesses was Sarah Howarth, I've presumed that she was Richard's sister (I know, dangerous to presume) and looked at Howarth families who had children called Richard and Sarah in 10 yr window in Liverpool around 1810.That gives the following:
Father RICHARD: son Richard bapt 9.2.1910 at St Nicholas and daughter Sarah bapt 26.11.1811 at St Peter
Father MATTHEW: son Richard bapt 14 Aug 1811 and daughter Sarah bapt 13 May 1812, both at St Nicholas
Father THOMAS: son Richard bapt 18 June 1809 and daughter Sarah Naylor bapt 12 April 1805 both at St Nicholas
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Richard Haworth of Hatton garden died in 1949, age 39. In the 1841 census there was a 30 yr Richard living in Hatton gardens who was a pawnbroker, so this was presumably him. Looking the baptisms of possible Richards, which set of parents included a pawnbroker?
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There was a Richard bap. 23 Oct 1805 parents William and Elizabeth - father pawnbroker
Church was Our Lady and St. Nicholas, Liverpool
I'll check the others.
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Another Richard bap 29 April 1807 at Our Lady & St. Nicholas Liverpool. Parents John Hall & Elizabeth (nee Catt) Pawnbroker.
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Between 1805 and 1812 just the two that I have given whose fathers were pawnbrokers.
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Many thanks Folks, for the suggestions. You've been busy while I've been snoozing ;)
Okay...
Pheno - good thought, but still the Matthew & Sarah Thick parents still don't seem to work with he wives and children too many others have for these parents and son Richard.
Have investigated the Richard Haworth & Catherine Robinson (mostly because of mother's name) and still open to that one. Plus, father was a bookkeeper and my Richard was a Clerk at one point - reaching at straws.
Researching Richard born to John Hall Haworth and Elizabeth... stymied with that one.
Annie65115 - Thanks, but definitely not the the Ann Roper connection. Yes, buried at Walton on the Hill.
Ciderdrinker..."Can I ask about a baptism to Thomas and Betsey nee Brown 9.2.1810
It 's at St Nicholas. Father a tailor of Gt Cross Hall St ..."- Yes, have been researching this connection too, but not getting far. Good idea re signatures!
Am researching the Haworth & Betsey Brown possibility, but not having a lot of luck with connections.
MY Richard married Alethea Goodrich Wells (ch 24 Mar 1809 died 28 June 1855, dau of Alethea Hargreaves & John Wells (another brick wall is he lol)
They married on 13 May 1831 at St martin
Chn
Catherine Maria Haworth 1832-1890 (name inspired research re Catherine Robinson connection and any other Catherine)
Harriet Ameila Haworth 1834-1873 (Harriet(s) in Haworth, Wells & Hargreaves lines)
Richard John Haworth (my 2g-grandfather) bn Cheshire (Abode Poulton Cum Seacombe Cheshire) 18 Jul 1836 - 2 bapt for him ?? 8 Aug 1836 St Peter, Liverpool & 22 Jul 1841 St Peter, Liverpool second one under HOWORTH (parents Richard & Alethea). Died 21 Jun 1922 Western Australia.
Alethea Goodrich Haworth 1838-1877
Elizabeth Wells Haworth 1841-1908
Bridger Goodrich Haworth 1843-1881
Emma Selina Haworth 1846 - 1899
Susan Louisa Haworth 1848-1895
William James "James" Haworth 1851-1916
Jessie Maud Haworth 1855-1856
I've followed all chn and their chn as much as possible, but nothing leads me back to the parents of Richard...
He seemed to change occupations regularly according to baptisms of children! Started out as a 'Mariner', Labourer, Warehouseman, Clerk in an Office, Gentleman, Broker, Surveyor (Tuesday 3 April 1860 - 'R Haworth, Esq., formerly of Bradshaw and Haworth surveyors, &c., late of West Derby, England.) and died as a Window Blind Manufacturer. Fudge.
1861 census has him bn about 1804 (?) but all others and death cert about 1809-1810. But, will look at the earlier years...in case
So grateful for all the input!