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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: dave1948 on Wednesday 13 November 19 10:23 GMT (UK)
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Hi Guys,
I am tracing a Divorce/Annulment.
The marriage (which I have a copy of) was in Vienna, Austria in 1942 of Karl Kaminsky to Kattalina Vogl. According to Austrian Law any Mental illness should be declared at the time of the marriage, but was not. Kattalina tried to kill their 2 children with a knife, and as Karl was unaware of her mental illness he obtained an Annulment sometime between 1945 and 1948. Being Catholic, I have been informed, this may have been through the Vatican.
Does anyone know where I can find/get a copy of the Divorce/Annulment. Would it be in Austria or Vatican City?
Many thanks, Dave.
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You could register on this very good forum: https://forum.ahnenforschung.net
and post your query in the Austrian part: Österreich und Südtirol Genealogie, neues Thema
here´s the registration proceedure: https://forum.ahnenforschung.net/showthread.php?t=38885
They speak english!
otherwise i could translate your query and post it for you.
Dave
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In 1942, Austria was the Ostmark of the Third Reich 1938 to 1945. Mental illness may well have been a notifiable disability before 1938 but certainly 1938 to 1945.
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Hi Guys,
Thanks for your replies. I will certainly try that link and see how far I get. Should I need your offer of a translation, I would appreciate it, thank you.
Regards, Dave.
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Can you post the marriage document, to see WHICH Standesamt it happened in Vienna 1942?
Or state the name of Standesamt (district, street) where they married.
Civil records started in 1938. It must be a civil thing, so about a Law Court would think.
But if you have the Standesamt you can ask there, where to find the Annulment.
Assume they must have the info to it and also a note.
Why did you not ask at the above mentioned FORUM?
I have seen no thread with the questions like here.
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dave1948 did post his query in Ahnenforschung.net
"requests in English"
https://forum.ahnenforschung.net/showthread.php?t=182751
144 hits
it might have been more effective if he had posted in the Austrian part
https://forum.ahnenforschung.net/forumdisplay.php?f=26
Dave
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Ok, thanks Dave. ;)
Looked only at the Austrian part.
No idea why he did not follow your recommendation to post it in the Austria section.
If, then it knows most likely someone from Austria (I´ from there ;) ), because a divorce there is certainly not a matter of the Vatican but is done by an Austrian court. Someone is only going to the Vatican, who wants to marry again a 2nd time in church with a new partner. Vatican is not responsible to civil marriages in a state. So how said before he has to go in contact with the Standesamt, where the marriage happened in 1942.
They must know more would think. ::)
In the list in this Link he can search for the Standesamt which is needed.
List Standesämter: https://www.wien.gv.at/advuew/internet/AdvPrSrv.asp?Layout=stelle&Type=K&stellecd=2006061211245513&STELLE=Y
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This clears question to the Standesamt. ;)
It is Standesamt Wien-Döbling/ Civil registry office Vienna-Döbling, which is to reach via Standesamt Wien-Ottakring NOW:
https://www.wien.gv.at/advuew/internet/AdvPrSrv.asp?Layout=stelle&Type=K&stellecd=2006061211220655&STELLE=Y
Josef Karl Kaminsky
born Sept 27, 1919, adress Rokitanskygasse 12
Baptism Oct 5, 1919, parish church Hernals, 17th district Vienna
Father: Karl Kaminsky, Buchbinder Assistant, cath., born 15.3.1886 in Vienna, parish Meidling, responsible to authority of Piskal, Comitat Baranya, Hungary, son of Maria Kaminsky
Mother: Lötz Adele, cath., born 13.3.1895 in Vienna, parish Lichtenthal, daughter of Mathilde Lötz
Notes:
1) was returned to the Roman Catholic Church on December 7, 1942 in the Parishchurch of Kalasantiner, 15th district with the permission of the Archbishop's Ordinariate. (so he left any time before the church, how it was often usual THAT times)
2) 1st marriage on December 19, 1942 at Standesamt/civil registry office Wien-Döbling under Familienbuch 511/42.
3) Church wedding with Katharian Vogl at parishchurch Kalasantiner on December 19, 1942
4) According to information of the Magistrate districts office (16th district) Z3 / 977/1922 left with Mrs. Adele Kaminsky, nee Lötz the roman catholic church on Sept, 14, 1922 (parishchurch Hernals);
re-entered 1923
http://data.matricula-online.eu/de/oesterreich/wien/17-hernals/01-116/?pg=155
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The marriage at church would be to find at Parishchurch Kalasantiner = St.Josef Church in 14th district Penzing (also known as Pfarre Reindorf). As Civil records started in 1938, the church files not longer after that time to find online.
http://data.matricula-online.eu/de/oesterreich/wien/14-st-josef-kalasantinerpfarre-reinlgasse/
If liked a marriage certificate it is to get here (direct family line), maybe it would have the note to the divorce of civil office. Or you ask only, if they can see a note at the marriage in the churchbook for that: https://reindorf.eu/kontakt/
Video of church: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niL76J0bwYM
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Birth of Karl Kaminsky March 15, 1886 in parish church Meidling, 12th district Vienna:
Entry 579
Mother: Kamensky Maria
Correction note later: Kaminsky Magdalena Rosalia, born April 3, 1863 in Bikal, Comitat Baranya, Hungary, legitimate daughter of Josef Kaminsky and Anna Maria nee Pick.
Note: married on Oct 13, 1912 in parish church Lichtenthal, 9th district Vienna
http://data.matricula-online.eu/de/oesterreich/wien/12-meidling/01-35/?pg=146
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meidlinger_Pfarrkirche
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Marriage Karl Kaminsky and Adele Lötz on Oct 13, 1912,
Parish church Lichtenthal, Vienna 9th district
Grooms dates are known from before.
Bride: Lötz Adele, age 17, born March 13, 1895 in Vienna, parish Lichtenthal, responsible to authority of Untereichenstein, district Schütten, Bohemia (now Czech Rep.), daughter of Mathilde Lötz.
Note: 3rd marriage on Dec 7, 1940, Standesamt Hernals, Family book No 1009/ 40
http://data.matricula-online.eu/de/oesterreich/wien/09-lichtental/02-38/?pg=162
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Birth of Adele Lötz March 13, 1895, Parish church Lichtenthal, Vienna 9th district
died Aug 23, 1941, Standesamt Hernals, No 375/41
Mother: Mathilda Helena Lötz, handworker, cath., born Flanitzhütte, parish Oberkreuzberg, legitimate daughter of Johan Lötz and Crescentia Krieger
http://data.matricula-online.eu/de/oesterreich/wien/09-lichtental/01-44/?pg=44
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichtentaler_Pfarrkirche
Flanitzhütte belonges like Oberkreuzberg to Spiegelau, Bavaria, Germany:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiegelau#Gemeindegliederung
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberkreuzberg
https://www.bistum-passau.de/kirche/6155/pfarrkirche-oberkreuzberg
https://www.google.at/maps/place/Nordwald-Zendo/@48.9059742,12.8236245,10.98z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x5a663585c2c9ecc4!8m2!3d48.9567291!4d13.2996503
Church books online: http://data.matricula-online.eu/de/deutschland/passau/oberkreuzberg/
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Hi Carinthian and Dave,
I hadn't checked my emails lately and missed your recent posts.
I am fascinated by the information and links you have found and will spend some time looking them up (and translating :) ) I have already noticed more names 'Johan Lötz and Crescentia Krieger' who I have not heard of before ... so further ancestors to follow.
Thank you so much for spending your time for me.
As Dave said, I had posted on ahnenforschung.net forum, and had been watching that, but after 173 hits, no-one had posted back and was getting disappointed.
Regards, Dave1948.
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Here the birth under No 72 (left side more on end of page) for Mathilde Lötz in 1865 at Flatnitzhütte, Oberkreuzberg, Bavaria, Germany.
It shows that the family was involved into glass manufacture, so no wonder that Adele was responsible to authority in Bohemia, so her glass factory family must have lived there a while, like many Bavarians did. They brought many glass work to Bohemia.
Her father was Glasfabrikant/ glassproducer (factory owner); hard to read all, but godmother (her name is not really readable for me) had also a glass factory (Glasfabrikantin) and was from Klostermühle, Bohemia.
http://data.matricula-online.eu/de/deutschland/passau/oberkreuzberg/005/?pg=60
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Klášterský Mlýn (Klostermühle) in Czech Rep. belonges to Rejštejn (deutsch Unterreichenstein) close on the border to Bavaria.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rejštejn (copy Link into Linkadress, it does not work)
Klostermühle is north east of Flattnitzhütte, Oberkreuzberg, Spiegelau about the BORDER (very close)!
Copy this into google maps, does also not work, assume because of the Czech letters: Klášterský Mlýn, 341 92 Rejštejn, Tschechien
:D Ok and HERE the history to the LÖTZ family with their glass work in Bohemia. You may copy it into google translator. The first sentences: "The Bohemian glass industry has always been at the top of the world. Their products have won numerous awards and are in demand in many countries. Incidentally, the founder of the world-famous Swarowski company also came from Bohemia. At the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries, however, another Bohemian glass factory conquered the world market: the Lötz company from the Bohemian Forest. Although the company went under after the Second World War, its products are still valued by experts." https://www.radio.cz/de/rubrik/panorama/edles-glas-aus-dem-boehmerwald-die-geschichte-der-firma-loetz
I´m not sure about the realtionship of all within the Lötz glassmaker family....Mathilde´s parents were Johann Lötz and Crescent(ia) Krieger. I`m more then confused who-is-who. ??? :o
Johann Lötz, * 19.4.1778 Wassersuppen, district Taus (Böhmen), † 17.3.1844 Annathal district Schüttenhofen, Bohemia (now Czech rep.). (catholic) (possible grandfather of Mathilde born 1865?)
https://www.deutsche-biographie.de/sfz53846.html
It was once one of the most important glass factories of the former empire: the Johann Lötz Witwe company, founded in 1851 in Klostermühle in the former Bohemia.
What a strange name!
It comes from Johann Lötz, a famous glassmaker in the region who bought the oldest glassworks in Wottawattal in Bohemia in 1850, but the actual operators were his wife and widow Susanne Lötz and his grandson Max von Spaun.
https://imkinsky.com/?cpt-article=loetz-1900
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Joh. Loetz widow (glassworks)
important glassworks in Klostermühle / Klástersky Mlýn
"Joh. Loetz Witwe, also written by Joh. Lötz Witwe, was an important art glass manufacturer in Klostermühle, Bohemia. Loetz's works are among the most outstanding examples of Art Nouveau.
In the Wottawattal of the Bohemian Forest was one of the oldest glassworks, which was bought in 1850 by Johann Lötz, the founder of the company, former owner of the glass factories Deffernik, Hurkental, Annatal and Vogelsang. In 1879, Max Ritter von Spaun, a grandson of Joh. Lötz, took over the factory from his grandmother Susanne Lötz and continued to run it under the old company "Joh. Lötz Witwe". (Wikipedia 09/04/2014)
Klostermühle / Klástersky Mlýn
https://sachsen.museum-digital.de/index.php?t=people&id=14381
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joh._Loetz_Witwe
http://www.ophirgallery.com/designers/loetz-witwe-company-1851-1947
https://www.galerie-albertina.at/kuenstler/13657/loetz-witwe-klostermuehle-johann/
https://www.kunsthammer.at/shop/catalog/loetz/product/all/list/
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/822540319418121377/
http://worldcat.org/identities/lccn-n86060057/
https://www.loetz.com/history
http://www.biographien.ac.at/oebl/oebl_S/Spaun_Max_1856_1909.xml
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Hi Carinthiangirl,
I am really grateful for all that information about Johan Lotz and the Glassworks which I had no idea about.
Earlier you had details for Josef Karl Kaminsky, born 1919 Hernals 17, Wien from Matricula Online. I have looked at that page and website, and tried to find a ‘search’ box for names but failed. Is there a Search facility, because I know he had a brother Karl Kaminsky born/bapt 30 Sep 1912 (possibly in Liechtenthal parish), married a Martha, and later died 1980 or 1990 in Hernals. Also another brother Franz Kaminsky born 30 Sep 1915, bapt 9 Oct 1915, died 1917. A sister, Adele Kaminsky, she was born and died 1917, and a second sister that died 1922.
Their parents (Karl Kaminsky and Adele Lotz) had married on 13 Oct 1912 Liechtenthal Parish No. 1912/157, about 2 weeks after their first child was born.
It is a sad part of the family history as 3 of the 5 children died very young, and the father died a few months before his last child was born.
Regards, Dave
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Oops, error in last post.
Karl Kaminsky was born 30 OCTOBER 1912, that was about 2 weeks AFTER his parents married.
Sorry about that, Dave.
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Example birth Josef Kaminsky.
In this parish most books for only one year. The index to look through names A-Z always on end of right side pages -> index.....for Josef it says his entry is in same book page 152 (page in BOOK not right side list).
Index: http://data.matricula-online.eu/de/oesterreich/wien/17-hernals/01-116/?pg=245
Entry: http://data.matricula-online.eu/de/oesterreich/wien/17-hernals/01-116/?pg=155
But Hernals has the birth index also here extra by years: http://data.matricula-online.eu/de/oesterreich/wien/17-hernals/?page=7#register-header
For his brother you have to search at year 1912:
Hernals books list: http://data.matricula-online.eu/de/oesterreich/wien/17-hernals/?page=3#register-header
There are two 1912 books (no idea why), both have no index (again no idea why).
http://data.matricula-online.eu/de/oesterreich/wien/17-hernals/01-105/?pg=1
http://data.matricula-online.eu/de/oesterreich/wien/17-hernals/01-106/?pg=1
As you know his birthdate you can search in the book by date, a little tedious. I remember that I looked for him and could not find. So you may look also again at this Hernals.....it is more difficult as they wrote (listed) after baptism date, so some birth dates are later or earlier. :(
Maybe overlooked or the other children born another place? Marriage happened in Lichtenthal, so possible also baptisms there. I do just not remember if I made also look up at the births for Lichtenthal. Index books for Taufen/ baptisms end 1901. :( So also to search via birth date in books directly.
1912: http://data.matricula-online.eu/de/oesterreich/wien/09-lichtental/01-59/?pg=1
1915: http://data.matricula-online.eu/de/oesterreich/wien/09-lichtental/01-62/?pg=1
Hope you can find Karl and Franz, maybe also Adele in Lichtenthal or Hernals.
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Kaminsky Franz, page 225, Hernals 1915.
Index: http://data.matricula-online.eu/de/oesterreich/wien/17-hernals/A-44/?pg=10
Entry: http://data.matricula-online.eu/de/oesterreich/wien/17-hernals/01-112/?pg=90
Boah, Bingo checked now. When two books for a year the 1st is for the 1st half year and the 2nd for the 2nd half year. ;D And you must look for the page number IN the church book.
Karl could not find in 1912 index Hernals. Look also through the list please:
http://data.matricula-online.eu/de/oesterreich/wien/17-hernals/A-41/?pg=12
No Kaminsky birth and death in 1917 Hernals:
http://data.matricula-online.eu/de/oesterreich/wien/17-hernals/01-114/?pg=184
http://data.matricula-online.eu/de/oesterreich/wien/17-hernals/03-64/?pg=274
Also not in 1922: http://data.matricula-online.eu/de/oesterreich/wien/17-hernals/03-69/?pg=165
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I am getting the way how to search those records, thanks.
I agree with you, by only finding Franz birth 1915 as well. Nothing for his death, or Karl's birth. And nothing for the other 2 siblings ...
I have decided to take a step back. The information I have comes from a book/diary written by Josef Karl (born 1919) when he was in his 20's, and which I have his baptism papers. How much of his details are actually accurate is now in question, but I will try every line I can think of to try and trace them.
Thank you all, for all your wonderful help.
Dave1948.