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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: Calvin Wyatt on Thursday 31 October 19 19:37 GMT (UK)
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Hi everybody, I've a bit of a conundrum. Ive been researching my 3rd great grandmother Agnes Craig.
She married Alexander Marshall in 1866 in Bridgeton and her parents are listed as James Craig and Janet Crawford. i can't find a birth record for Agnes.
I found her death record which lists her as the wife of Alexander Marshall. She died aged 77 in 1924. Only issue is that her mothers nsme is listed as Agnes instead of Janet, i had thought maybe the name was wrong because everything else adds up.
I also found what seems like the right record for Agnes. she was 6 In 1851 and was the granddaughter of the head, Agnes Crawford so that seems to be right. the only other people on the census were Margaret Crawford and Jane Crawford aged 16 and 23. so that doesnt work unless the name was wrong or Jane was used as a shortned version of Janet.
So i've got three different names, no birth certificate and I'm utterly stumped. if anybody has any idea of how to go about searching it up, I'd be so appreciative.
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Welcome to Rootschat
Agnes was born around 1845 in Glasgow per the 1871
Jane is an alternative version of Janet. Does Agnes Crawford have a daughter Janet on the 1841 census?
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Theres no Janet but there is a Jane. i thoght that might have been an alternate name for Janet. What confuses me now is that on Agnes Craig's death certificate, it lists her mother as Agnes which is not the case.
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The mother's name on the marriage certificate is more likely to be correct than the one on the death certificate. Agnes was there at the time to give the information. Parents' names can be wrong on death certificates because the informant is often a child, grandchild or other person who had never known the parent's parents. Try asking random people to give the Christian names and surnames of their grandparents and great grandparents - many wouldn't have a clue.
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Yes thats what i had thought as her son signed the record and he wouldnt have known Janet. I believe ive found Janets death? theres an entry for a Janet Craig with just simply Crawford listed in the section regarding parents. she died of General Paralysis that she had suffered from for two years. the craig and the Crawford seem to add up and the lack of information could be due to the doctor that signed it not knowing? it says she is married but Ive found no such marriage record when searching Scotland's People Agnes' marriage certificate does indicate that her mother died before 1866 so that seems to fit. I'm just stumped with if there even was a marriage then to Agnes' father as on the 1851 census, Jane has kept her maiden name on the census and I havent found a marriage though, if this was the correct death certficate this would indicate she was married to Agnes's Father
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Yes thats what i had thought as her son signed the record and he wouldnt have known Janet. I believe ive found Janets death? theres an entry for a Janet Craig with just simply Crawford listed in the section regarding parents. she died of General Paralysis that she had suffered from for two years. the craig and the Crawford seem to add up and the lack of information could be due to the doctor that signed it not knowing? it says she is married but Ive found no such marriage record when searching Scotland's People Agnes' marriage certificate does indicate that her mother died before 1866 so that seems to fit. I'm just stumped with if there even was a marriage then to Agnes' father as on the 1851 census, Jane has kept her maiden name on the census and I havent found a marriage though, if this was the correct death certficate this would indicate she was married to Agnes's Father
I forgot to add that Janet's death was registered at the City Poorhouse in Glasgow
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Jane, Janet, Jean Jeanie were the same name effectively in Scotland. Even as recently as 1970 my aunt Jane signed legal papers as Jean.
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In the 1851 census for the parish of Gamrie in the north east of Scotland, the married women are recorded under their maiden names. You sometimes find that in 1851.
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Jane, Janet, Jean Jeanie were the same name effectively in Scotland. Even as recently as 1970 my aunt Jane signed legal papers as Jean.
Yes, very true. My grandmother's brithname is Jane and shes been called Jean all her life
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the 1841 census for my family is hard to read so Its difficult to ascertain whether she is married or not I'd presume so but with my difficulty finding a marriage record, I'm confused.
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Calvin, you need to remember when researching pre the start of official registration in Scotland from 1855, that only about a third of BMD events were recorded in the Old Parish Registers (for the established Church of Scotland, ie presbyterian).
Agnes' birth and parents' marriage may simply not be there to be found unfortunately :-\
Monica
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Oh, of course. Sorry. I Knew there wasn't a poor standard of record keeping pre 1855, this is the first time I've experienced it when researching my family.
Regardless, thank you all for your help today
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Jane, Janet, Jean Jeanie were the same name effectively in Scotland.
They are all feminine forms of John, so they are equivalent.
Sometimes, however, you find a family that has both a Jane/Jean/Jeanie/Jeannie and a Janet/Jessie, so not every family regarded Janet as a variant of Jean/Jane. I have only come across a few Jean/Jane/Janets - nothing like as many as I have found Janet/Jessies or Jean/Janes.
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"She married Alexander Marshall in 1866 in Bridgeton and her parents are listed as James Craig and Janet Crawford. "
Is Janet Crawford recorded as Janet Marshall M.S. Crawford or just Janet Crawford?
Annie
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"She married Alexander Marshall in 1866 in Bridgeton and her parents are listed as James Craig and Janet Crawford. "
Is Janet Crawford recorded as Janet Marshall M.S. Crawford or just Janet Crawford?
Annie
On the marriage record of Janet's daughter Agnes Craig to Alexander Marshall, Janet is listed as "Janet Craig M.S. Crawford" So that would indicate she was married.
Janet was around 17 when her daughter Agnes was born. I'm not sure if she would've be been married then
Or not.
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Census 1871 @ 9 Holmes Street Hamilton Lanarkshire
MARSHALL Alexander 28y boiler maker b. Hamilton Lanarkshire
MARSHALL Agnes 26y b. Glasgow Lanarkshire
MARSHALL Agnes 4y b. Hamilton Lanarkshire
MARSHALL Mary 2y b. Hamilton Lanarkshire
MARSHALL Flora 6m
Census 1881 @ 251 Main Street Bridgeton Lanarkshire
MARSHALL Alexander 38y boiler inspector b. Omoa Lanarkshire
MARSHALL Agnes H 36y b. Glasgow
MARSHALL Agnes 14y b. Hamilton
MARSHALL Flora H 10y b. Hamilton
MARSHALL Alexander 9y b. Motherwell Lanarkshire
MARSHALL James 7y b. Motherwell Lanarkshire
MARSHALL Jane 4y b. Glasgow
MARSHALL Stewart M 1y b. Glasgow
Census 1891 @ 5 Clydeview Terr
MARSHALL Alexander 48y boiler inspector b. Omoa Lanarkshire
MARSHALL Agnes 46y b. Glasgow
MARSHALL Flora 21y b. Hamilton Lanarkshire
MARSHALL Alexander 19y clerk b. Hamilton Lanarkshire
MARSHALL James 17y butchers ass. b. Hamilton Lanarkshire
MARSHALL Jeannie 14y milliners app. b. Govan Lanarkshire
MARSHALL Stuart M 11y b. Govan Lanarkshire
Census 1901 @ 28 Rupert Street Glasgow Park Lanarkshire
MARSHALL Alexander 58y boiler inspector b. Omoa Lanarkshire
MARSHALL Agnes H 56y b. Glasgow Lanarkshire
MARSHALL James 27y butchers ass. b. Motherwell Lanarkshire
MARSHALL Murray S 21y clerk wine merchant b. Glasgow Lanarkshire
HENDERSON Wilhelmina 4y servant b. Glasgow Lanarkshire
From births Scotlandspeople.......... MARSHALL Flora Hastie
Mother Agnes is named Agnes H...might suggest that HASTIE is a family name in her ancestry.
You have a CRAIG - MARSHALL marriage certificate, 1866, which would record a lot of information.
Can you please list all the information on this document.......everything........ages, names, dates, occupations, addresses...also if parents are noted as (dec)......does everyone sign ie literate.......
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On the marriage record of Janet's daughter Agnes Craig to Alexander Marshall, Janet is listed as "Janet Craig M.S. Crawford" So that would indicate she was married.
Yes. Unless Agnes didn't know that her parents weren't married, or she did know and was fibbing.
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So the infromation from Agnes' Marriage cetificate is as follows:
Agnes Craig Married Alexander Marshall on the 23 of March at London Road in Glasgow, they were married after banns according to the forms of the church of Scotland. Agnes was a bleacher and Alexander was a Shoemaker. Alexander was 21 and Agnes 20. Tthey were noted as both living at 23 Kirk Street. Alexanders parents were John Marshall, a cotton weaver who was deceased at the time of the marriage and Margaret Marshall M.S. Hamilton. Agnes' Parents were James Craig and Janet M.S. Crawford. Donald McNair and Robert Wallae were witnesses.
ive also found a record of Agnes and Alexanders illegitemate child Agnes Marshall born 1863 in Springburn. Her parents are listed as being a Shoemaker and a Bleachfield worker.
Also found a record of a son, John who was born 1867 at 64 Drygate in the High Church area of Glasgow
I've found a census record for 1871 in the Calton area which seems to add up mostly though I'm a bit confused by one bit so I'm not too sure.
on this census theres an:
Alexander Marshall, 26 Shoemaker
His wife, 25 ( can't read the name, possibly Jane but that wouldnt fit, doesnt look similar to Agnes when compared to the daughter agnes' name)
Agnes Marshall, 7 daughter
John Marshall, 3 Son
Ann? Mashall, 1 Daughter
John Marshall, 22 Brother also a Shoemaker
The shoemaker adds up, the daughter and son names and ages match records but the name of the wife seems wrong.
EDIT: I've jusr ound a record for a Ann Marshall born to Agnes and Alexander in 1870 so qould be 1 by 1871. this seems to be the 1 year old on this record but the name just doesnt look like Agnes for the wife at all
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A daughter Ann was born in 1870, so that will be who is 1 in 1871 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ36-D6R
Monica
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Family search have the 1871 entry www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBP8-FF5
Agnes is transcribed as Ann. Ann is a common name variant of Agnes and interchangeable.
See www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=agnes
Monica
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Ive found a record in 1881 Its the same address 93 Green street like in the 1871 census i found.
Annie Marshall is the head, she's a widow and a House Cleaner
Agnes Marshall, 18 cotton weaver
John Marshall, 14
Alexander Marshall, 7
John Marshall, 28 Shoemaker
I've found that Alexander Marshall died in 1870 in Glagow Royal Infirmary but usual resience was 93 Green Street so this would confirm the census ive found are correct as if Ann was often used interchangably for agnes that Annie would make sense as a nickname.
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Alexander Snr's death 1880 rather than 1870...
Sounds like you are making all the right connections now Calvin :)
You still have the issues around the parents of Agnes but you have been able to find out lots about her family once she married Alexander Marshall.
In case you haven't seen these entries, there were two Alexanders born in 1873 and 1874. First looks to have died as a baby.
www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ5T-Y7X
www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ5T-Y7K
Monica
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One issue with Alexander's Snr's age if it was 1880, the census entries by wivenhoe are for another family?
The parents on the death cert you have for Alexander, does it match with the parents you have from his marriage cert?
Monica
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wivenhoe, I think the census entries you posted are for another family. This is the birth index for daughter Mary, mother shows as Agnes Hastie (which explains the ref you found to that surname) www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQH8-YJ3
Monica
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i have Alexander as having died 1871 parents are correct and wife's name is Agnes Craig, so that seems to be correct as well as the usual place of residence being correct,
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If he died in 1871, who fathered the two sons called Alexander in 1873 and 1874 indexed by FS above :-\
Monica
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FreeCen shows these entries for the Marshalls:
1841, Green Street, Glasgow:
Alexander Marshall, 60, cotton hand loom weaver, b. outside Lanarkshire
John Marshall, 35, cotton hand loom weaver, b. Lanarkshire
Margaret Marshall, 30, b. Lanarkshire
Sarah Muskat, 10, b. Lanarkshire
Robert Watson, 10, b. Lanarkshire
1851, 19 Bell St., Glasgow:
John Marshall, 46, weaver, b. Glasgow
Margaret Marshall, 41, winder, b. Glasgow
Alexander Marshall, 7, b. Glasgow
John Marshall, 2, b. Glasgow
John Garman, lodger, 80, weaver, b. Ireland
Robert Garman, lodger, 17, labourer, b. Ayr
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My misake, its 1874 he died. January first 1874 at Glagow royal infrimary (Usual residence 93 Green Street, Calton) 29 years old. Son of John Marshall and Margrate Hamiltondied of Tuberculosis and Tubercular Pneumonia. Agnes Marshall of 93 Green street was the informant.
My mistake so he was the father of Alexander and Alexander.
ive found Agnes in 1891 With the surviviing Alexander and a son John Marshall, 10. found his birth certificate and he was born John McLuskie Marshall in 1881 son of Agnes and was listed as illegitimate. im guessing McLuskie is a nod to her father maybe? as i know sometimes women did that and it doesnt appear on Alexander or Agnes's family anywhere
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No problem :)
GR2 has found you Alexander Snr's family in the earlier censuses, with the parents you have confirmed for him from his registrations.
Agnes still got questions marks hasn't she. Have you seen her death cert to compare parental details with?
Monica
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Theres a Death for an Agnes Marshall aged 77 in 1924. states that she was the wife of Alexander marshall, Shoemaker but incorrectly lists her parents as John Craig and Agnes Crawford instead of James Craig and Janet Crawford but i put it down to the son, who was her informant not knowing.
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FreeCen shows these entries for the Marshalls:
1841, Green Street, Glasgow:
Alexander Marshall, 60, cotton hand loom weaver, b. outside Lanarkshire
John Marshall, 35, cotton hand loom weaver, b. Lanarkshire
Margaret Marshall, 30, b. Lanarkshire
Sarah Muskat, 10, b. Lanarkshire
Robert Watson, 10, b. Lanarkshire
1851, 19 Bell St., Glasgow:
John Marshall, 46, weaver, b. Glasgow
Margaret Marshall, 41, winder, b. Glasgow
Alexander Marshall, 7, b. Glasgow
John Marshall, 2, b. Glasgow
John Garman, lodger, 80, weaver, b. Ireland
Robert Garman, lodger, 17, labourer, b. Ayr
thank you so much for this info. big help
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Agnes Craig is my great-great-great-great-grandmother (going down the female line, names are Marshall, Kirby, Lawson, Larkin, and so on). I’m tracing back through the women of the family specifically, so also looking into Janet Crawford’s history and have run into the same issues (hence how I found this thread). OP not sure if there’s a way to contact each other through this but let me know if you want to connect to figure this out! Clearly we are related :)
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Agnes Craig is my great-great-great-great-grandmother (going down the female line, names are Marshall, Kirby, Lawson, Larkin, and so on). I’m tracing back through the women of the family specifically, so also looking into Janet Crawford’s history and have run into the same issues (hence how I found this thread). OP not sure if there’s a way to contact each other through this but let me know if you want to connect to figure this out! Clearly we are related :)
Oh I'd love to connect and try to figure it out. You can private message me on here if you would like or we could find an alternate thing if that suits you better. Whichever is easiest.
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Personally, if you're both 'stuck' at the same hurdle, I don't see a reason to run off with PMs as people here are willing to try & help?
Annie
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Did either of you ever figure out anything more? I am trying to find an 1841 census that would include Agnes C, Janet and Margaret along with potentially the father (given the note on the 1951 version).