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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: hhuffman7 on Monday 28 October 19 00:42 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to find a John Lovell and his son Thomas S Lovell, but I can not find any records for them in Lancashire.
Per Thomas' death record,
Thomas S. Lovell
Birth Date: 25 July 1845
Birthplace: Lankashire, England
Death: 5 December 1916
Death Location: Vermilion County, Illinois, US
Fathers Name: John Lovell
John & Thomas immigrated to the US, probably via NYC, sometime between 1845 and 1860.
Per the 1860 census:
John & Thomas were living in Plato, Kane County, Illinois, USA with a Lucia Lovell born abt 1816 in New York and Emma Lovell born abt 1849 New Jersey. John's birth was estimated as 1813.
Thomas married Frances Virginia Lyon on May 21, 1868 in Kane County, Illinois.
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A possibility In 1851 there is a
John LOVILL (as transcribed on Ancestry) labourer 34 b Preston Lancashire
Louisa wife 36 b ditto
Hannah dau 9 b Hamilton Yorkshire
Thomas son 8 b Doncaster Yorkshire
Haven’t followed them through yet
Indexed as LEVILL on FindMyPast
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Do we know what the ‘S’ stands for?
Jamjar
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Do we know what the ‘S’ stands for?
Jamjar
According to his marriage he was Thomas Smith Lovel.
Annette
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Here is the 1860
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9YB2-Y7P?i=22&cc=1473181&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AMXCZ-TJH
If Emma is dau of John, then they won’t be showing in 1851 UK
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However 1910 census says year of immigration 1861, which can’t be correct if on 1860 census, but suggests sometime close to 1860
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9RJN-F57?i=54&cc=1727033&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AMKXG-THG
Added. I think it also says he has been naturalised. Would that documentation be useful?
Added further. no it is not. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XKGZ-9FQ
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1900 census says arrived 1855.
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'Thomas S. Lovell
Birth Date: 25 July 1845'
If that birth date is accurate, then born September quarter 1845 (and in Lancashire)
Could he have been born as Smith?
Added:
Other censuses give other ages, but keep to July?
Lovell is not a common Lancashire surname.
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With the different birth years and immigration years, is it possible there were actually two Thomas S Lovells living in the area at the same time?
The specific one I am looking for is the father of Vincent Smith Lovell, born August 31 1875 in Kane County Illinois and died December 22 1965 in Vermilion County Illinois. This Thomas likely enlisted in the military in Geneva, Illl in 1863, was discharged in 1865, and married Frances in 1868 in Kane County, Ill. This one definitely was born in July 1845 in Lankashire and died in December 1916 in Vermilion Illinois.
I have Vincent living with parents Thomas s Lovell and Frances Lovell, as well as siblings Fred J and Chauncy and servent Annie Lester (of England) in the 1880 census in Elgin, Kane, Illinois.
The 1900 census shows a Thomas Lovell (immigrated in 1955 and married in 1871) with a Fanny V (born in Mass.) with children Chancey R, Percey, and William in Wisconsin. The 1905 census shows Thomas with Frances (born in Conn) living with the same children Chauncy, Charles P (likely Percey), and William at the same Wisconsin city.
I think they moved back to Illinois by 1910, with the census showing a Thomas F, Francis V, Channcey R, Charles P, and Geo Wm in Sangamon, Illinois. But they have Thomas as immigrated in 1861.
Frances Lovell is widowed and living with her son Vincent in Vermilion County Illinois per the 1920 census.
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'This one definitely was born in July 1845 in Lankashire '
1) There is no Lankashire in England - there is a Lancashire.
2) There is a Lanarkshire - but in Scotland.
3) If that date of July 1845 is taken from the death inscription/certificate, it is not fact.
4) There were very few births for Lovel/Lavel/Livel/Lovell etcetc in Lancashire, and not a Thomas around - unfortunately there were a lot of Smiths.
5) The only proposed census for him for 1851 does not have him as from Lancashire, and the wrong age.
6) As we cannot even find one English Thomas Lovell in Lancashire, do not want to try and find two of them.
Have you got a marriage for John and Lucia?
Will keep looking.
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Have you got John and Lucia after 1860, and is this one of their children, no date:
John Lovell Spouse: Lucia Murphy
Child: Mabel J. Lovell
Film Number: 001312956
Added:
Ignore this, think she was born 1894.
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A possibility In 1851 there is a
John LOVILL (as transcribed on Ancestry) labourer 34 b Preston Lancashire
Louisa wife 36 b ditto
Hannah dau 9 b Hamilton Yorkshire
Thomas son 8 b Doncaster Yorkshire
Haven’t followed them through yet
Indexed as LEVILL on FindMyPast
Could "Hamilton", Hannah's birthplace have been Hambleton? I don't know of a place Hamilton in Yorkshire, although people with local knowledge may know of it. There is a town, Hamilton in Lanarkshire, Scotland.
If this was the correct Thomas, perhaps he'd been living in Lancashire since he was very young and assumed he'd been born there.
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If this was the correct Thomas, perhaps he'd been living in Lancashire since he was very young and assumed he'd been born there.
What I thought was a possibility was that if it were this John and son Thomas, that because they presumably went to US while Thomas was still young, he probably grew up knowing his father was “from Lancashire” and so assumed he was too. ...
I cannot see that family after the 1851, but nor can I see what might have happened to Louisa and Hannah.
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just puuting this as a possible scenario
Baptism: 17 Sep 1845 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Thomas Smith - Son of Edward Smith & Mary
Born: 25 Jul
Abode: Pitt Street
Occupation: Stonemason
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First of all I want to express my thanks to everyone for the help.
Second, I have managed to find handwritten documents from Elgin, Illinois giving more clarification.
Thomas Smith was adopted by John Lovel of Elgin, Kane County, Illinois. His name was officially changed to Thomas Smith Lovel on 26 Sept 1868. At the time of this name change, Thomas had been a resident of Illinois for at least 11 years. Per his military discharge papers he was born in Manchester and not Lancashire England.
Based on this, I'm thinking the 1860 census with a Thomas living with John and Lucia Lovel is the correct one.
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'Per his military discharge papers he was born in Manchester and not Lancashire England.'
Manchester is in Lancashire, so that still fits.
lancsann has given you a birth on 25th July for a Thomas Smith, in Wigan. Wigan is about 20 miles from Manchester, and is in Lancashire - seems reasonable to investigate further.
There could be other Thomas Smiths with the same birth date, as not all birth dates are recorded on baptismal entries - depended on the vicar.
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There are baptisms for several children of Edward Smith and Mary, he a stone mason, in Wigan :
www.lan-opc.org.uk
In 1851, Mary is widowed :
Mary Smith 51 Aspull
William Smith 27 son widowed Power loom weaver Aspull
Richard Smith 20 son Wigan
Mary Smith 14
Robert Smith 12
George Smith 10
Edward Smith 8
Thomas Smith 5 son
John Smith 4 nephew
In 1861, cannot see Mary with 'children'. George and Edward may be lodgers, separately not together, older brothers married....Thomas in US?
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I wonder why he officially changed his name AFTER he married. Who did he name as his father on his marriage certificate.
Were there any other relevant details on his military (US?) record
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Here are the documents I have found so far. I'm not sure why he waited so long to officially change his name since seems to have always gone by Lovel.
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He might have wanted to make it official, possibly for inheritance reasons.
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that document says until the date of the petition he was always known as Thomas Smith.
What name did he marry under? If Lovell maybe the name change was to ensure the marriage was legal
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After asking my grandfather for any additional information, he thinks he remembers that Thomas was an "indentured servent." Are there records kept for such agreements? Would the servants take the name of the person they were working for?