RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: Schorsch on Saturday 26 October 19 12:05 BST (UK)
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Hello,
does anybody live in this Area and know if it is the same house as in 1900? And if so, would it be possible to take a picture of this house?
kind regards
Brigitte
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You can have a look at the area here to see when the houses appeared:
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=18&lat=55.9563&lon=-3.2590&layers=168&right=BingHyb
Looking at the house on google streetview it is somewhat hidden behind greenery, but the nearby houses look newer than 1900. (possibly into the 20s/30s?)
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I live nearby and often pass 51 Craigcrook Road.
No 51 appears to be an upper flat with shops underneath. The flat was up for sale recently and if you google the address it gives you a view of the outside too.
Ruskie is correct and this building is a lot more recent than 1900.
Dorrie
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Thank you, Rusky and Dorrie, are there books with historical photographs of Edinburgh and maybe also of this Area?
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You could try this site www.edinphoto.org.uk
Monica
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Thank you, Monica and Charlie :)👋
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Google maps was putting the pin over the road, hence my comment about not seeing the house due to trees blocking the street view. ::)
The building with flat above shop could be earlier than the neighbouring 30s looking houses, but I am not 100% sure about that.
Brigitte says her dwelling was called “The Linden” - would a shop and flat have ever been called “The Linden”?
There are other similar “51 Craigcrook” addresses in Edinburgh : eg Craigcrook Avenue, Terrace, Park, Square, Grove .....
Brigitte, where did you get “The Linden, 51 Craigcrook Road” address from?
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I don't know, on street view it looks different.
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Ruskie I used google maps not your link which I found difficult to follow, sorry.
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It does look different on street view Schorsch.
The property for sale definitely says 51 Craigcrook Road.
I will check it out for you next time I am up that way but it will not be until next week now unfortunately.
Will post back when I find out.
Dorrie
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Dorrie, the same with me. I thought it is so because of my bad english 😂
that's nice Dorrie.
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Your English is excellent. My German is limited to schooldays and that was a long time ago.
Schlafen sie gut - hope I got that almost correct.
Dorrie
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Perfect Dorrie :)
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I remember some words but the spelling of them is another matter.
My husband speaks it quite fluently as he spent time as a child in Austria and Germany in the late 1940's but he cannot write it. :)
Dorrie
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I added to and amended my last reply before I noticed all the replies and later comments - apologies.
Please read it as I think something might be wrong regarding the address. :)
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You could be right Ruskie. Perhaps it was on the corner opposite the "trees" and was knocked down and rebuilt for some reason??
Hope to have an answer next week somwtime.
Dorrie
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Brigitte,
You mention the year 1900. What happened at this address in 1900? The houses in this area did not exist then.
I think we might need to look elsewhere for The Linden. What was the occpation of the householder living at this address in 1900?
Added: another possibility is that the house was elsewhere on Craigcrook Road and numbering has changed. :-\
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Scrap that idea about the other Craigcrook addresses, they are all nearby and all look like similar era houses. Maybe 30s? :-\
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You can see the shop on this map, built earlier than the neighbouring houses:
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=17.120577875765168&lat=55.9562&lon=-3.2588&layers=10&right=BingHyb
Not sure about all of this. Is this the correct house or is it not? :-\
Knowing where this date and address came from might help.
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I cannot find, where i got this number, on census and valuation roll the house is only called "The Linden".
good Night
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Which census did you find this address? The 1901?
If you look at the neighbours and their addresses to follow the enumerator’s route, this can sometimes help to estimate the location of a property. At least it should tell you if The Linden was situated on Craigcrook Road.
What is the name of the family who lived there?
What was the occupation of the head of household? If he was “grocer” for example then it is likely to be the shop.
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Head of household Wilhelm was a shopkeeper at this address in the 1901 census so this shop is probably correct.
An old thread of yours gives more details:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=693285.0
If I were you I would double check by looking at the neighbours. The style of the shop makes me think it could have been there in 1901 but I am not certain of that. ;)
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I did a pause for five years in researching, so i am a little bit confused, starting now again. But i found my mistake : 51 is in census 1901 the number of Schedule (i blush).
In 1911 the neighbours of Wilhelm Kuhn and his Family are: „Edgewood“, ..William D. Hog, „Cassadale“(?)….John A. Small and to the other Side: 1 Keith Row….John Burcher .
In Wilhelms Kuhn Will:
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:)
That is OK Brigitte. It is an easy mistake to make.
I don’t have access to the 1901 census at the moment so can’t look this up myself, but if you can provide more (probably at least four or five addresses) either side of Wilhelm and family I’m sure we will be able to find The Lindens. :)
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Good morning and thank you. :)
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Some 30 odd years ago I viewed a house in Craigcrook Road and whether it was named "The Linden" I cannot remember. However the house and garden were developed and is now Cottage Park (1984)
named, no doubt, after the field shown in earlier OS maps where there was a Ravelston Cottage.
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Craigcrook is a long road. :)
I believe this row of houses is “Keith Row”:
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=18.847093627773805&lat=55.9571&lon=-3.2501&layers=168&right=BingHyb
You can zoom in and out and move around the map.
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Thank you Unë kthimi i papenduar :)
So, i have the neighbours of 1901. On one side are 3 houses unnamed, the next is "Lismore ore Liemore Villa"...Robert Does; next to the other side is: Craigcrook Castle ..Emily V. Croall with 2 sons, a nurse and 5 servants; At least this must be possible to find :)
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Ruskie, i see you love this link , but i am not intelligent enough for this 😂
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I have seen it, Ruskie :), what do you say? I like it ;D
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Guten Morgen Brigitte. Es ist sehr kald hier.
I have been going over all we have so far and assume that we can discount number 51 Craigcrook Road.
Am I correct that Wilhelm Kuhn died in 1919 in Edinburgh? I have his probate record and his address is 33 London Street, Edinburgh. Estate value £223.5.7 left to his widow Susanne Schnitzler/Kuhn. The Edinburgh Electoral Register for 1914/1915 also gives his address as 33 London Street. I presume that you have his death certificate.
Now back to Craigcrook Road. As Ruskie says it is a very long road and there has been a lot of redevelopment there over the years including the building of Blackhall Primary School and a Nursing Home.
Have you viewed 33 London Street on a map.
Dorrie
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„Cassadale“(?)
Willing to bet that this is 'Carradale', after the village in Argyll.
The 1905 and 1915 valuation rolls list Wilhelm Kuhn as proprietor and occupier of 'The Linden', Craigcrook Road. In 1920 the proprietor was Russell Paton and the tenant and occupier was William Dods Hogg. There's no listing in 1895, so it is reasonable to suppose that it was built around 1900. The 1920 Valuation Roll lists Russell Paton as the proprietor of "House The Linden 4 Craigcrook Road", parish of Cramond, Midlothian. (Later VRs list him as proprietor of a house called Stratheden, which seems to have been No 24).
Craigcrook Castle is still there. https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NT2174. The early 20th century 25-inch map shows it as standing on its own.
This map https://maps.nls.uk/view/75651983 was surveyed in 1895 and this one https://maps.nls.uk/view/75512828in 1905. If you compare the two, looking at the Blackhall end of the road, you can see that there had been quite a lot of building between 1895 and 1905 there, but not around the castle.
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Back to the maps again .... :)
Because you said that The Lindens is the address after Keith Row, and the only houses nearby are these:
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=18.669997059948347&lat=55.9561&lon=-3.2517&layers=168&right=BingHyb
Maybe the one on the right is The Lindens? They look very lovely and quite large - large enough to have a name like “The Lindens”.
Street view possibly 9 Craigcrook Road? :-\
Brigitte, it is easy to view the maps. Just click on the link.. there is an annoying overlay which you close by clicking on the cross in the top right of the window. You can then see the side by side maps - old and current views, so you can see if the house you are interested in still stands today. You can also zoom in and out and scroll around the map.
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Good morning Dorrie, here in Hamburg it is also cold, but sunny . Have you seen that i am now neighbour of Craigcrook Castle? ;D Have you ever been there? House "The Linden" must be nearby.
@forfarian, yes, it looks that after Wilhelm Kuhns Death , Susanne sold it.
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Craigcrook Castle is quite a way away from Keith Row:
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=17.217124193551804&lat=55.9554&lon=-3.2652&layers=168&right=BingHyb
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See my reply #31 above - later posts have crossed with it while I was modifying it.
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Is it allowed to post the census pictures here?
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See my reply #31 above - later posts have crossed with it while I was modifying it.
I will have a closer look at the maps you posted in a minute. :)
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From what Forfarian and Ruskie found it now looks like The Lindens was at either No 4 or No 9 Craigcrook Road. Lots of redevelopment in that area.
I will take a look at the street as promised sometime next week when I am down that way.
No I have not visited Craigcrook Castle as it is a private residence and has been so for many years. There is a history of the castle online. It is a large turreted house rather than a castle as we would know one.
Dorrie
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Thank you Dorrie, i am looking forward to this.
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I don’t know if the house at No 4 Craigcrook Rd today is The Linden. The terrace is currently called “Cranbrook Gardens” though that name could be a later addition.
Considering the very few houses Brigitte says are on Craigcrook Road in the 1901 census, and comparing the 1895 and 1905 maps, I am not sure which would have been standing in 1901. Not many obviously. The majority of construction must have been after the 1901 census.
The two large houses (one of which I originally thought may have been The Linden) are already built in 1895, as is Keith Row, but not much else.
:-\
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Back in the early 1900's this area was more of a village than a suburb of Edinburgh. Locally Davidsons Mains which is nearby is still referred to as "The Village"
There is an old photo of Main Street, Davidsons Mains from around the 1900's and there are cows in the middle of the road. Can't remember now where I saw it though.
If you go to the end of Main Street, Davidsons Mains and turn into Quality Street right up to where it now meets the busy Queensferry Road straight across brings you to Craigcrook Road.
Dorrie
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Ruskie I have found the old photo and it is of Quality Street, Davidsons Mains
www.canmore.org.uk/site/150815/Edinburgh-Davidsons-mains-quality-street
Also old photos of the area on Edinburgh Photo Polis.
Cheers.
Dorrie
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I think you can get a sense of how it used to be looking at the maps with so few houses and so much open space. :)
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Hi all,
I am late to the scene, and not sure if this has been mentioned already, but on the 1920 Valuation Records, it gives the following for "The Linden",
WILLIAM DODS HOGG
Tenant Occupier
HOUSE THE LINDEN 4 CRAIGCROOK ROAD BLACKHALL
CRAMOND
1920
VR010800048-
RUSSELL PATON
Proprietor
HOUSE THE LINDEN 4 CRAIGCROOK ROAD BLACKHALL
CRAMOND
1920
VR010800048-
Hope this helps.
Tom
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Thank you Tom,
Yes, it seems that after Wilhelm KUHN died in 1919, his wife Susanne sold the house and went back to Edinburgh . She died 1940 in 20 Arden Street.
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Hi Schorsh,
On the 1905 and 1915 Valuation Records it gives the following,
WILHELM KUHN
Proprietor Occupier
HOUSE THE LINDEN CRAIGCROOK ROAD BLACKHALL
CRAMOND
1905
VR010800033-
and in 1915,
WILHELM KUHN
Proprietor
HOUSE THE LINDEN CRAIGCROOK ROAD BLACKHALL
CRAMOND
1915
VR010800043
Tom
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Yes, we are wondering if the house still exist. :)
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Guten Morgen
I have not forgotten my promise to look for the house in Craigcrook Road this week. Unfortunately, it has been very busy and I have not had time.
However, I will definitely be up that way on Saturday morning at my GP Surgery (Flu Jag Time) so I will have a look then.
Sorry for the delay,
Dorrie
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I am late to the scene, and not sure if this has been mentioned already
#31 above.
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Hi Forfarian,
I have went back and read the previous 5 pages, and noticed your valuable contributions which I have duplicated. My bad. Now standing in corner, with my dunces hat on.
Tom
PS hope you are well.
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@ Dorrie,
everything is fine, no need to be in a hurry. I learned Patience in my life 😂
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We have had our visit to Craigcrook Road and we still do not know which one is "The Linden" unfortunately. It is a very confusing street with Craigcrook Road on one side and Keith Crescent on the other.
Firstly we were at what we thought was No 4 Craigcrook Road but it turned out to be No 4 Keith Crescent. My husband said lets go and ask and a very kind gentleman pointed across the road to No 4 Craigcrook Road. We explained our reason for being there (he is interested in genealogy too so I told him about Rootschat) When we came home I checked the 1905 Valuation Roll and Willhelm owned No 4 Keith Crescent too so we were standing at the door of a house he owned.
Went across the road to no 4 Craigcrook Road and spoke to the lady who owns the house. She knew a lot about the history of her property and said it had never been named "The Linden". However, she did know that her house was not built until around 1904. She thought "The Linden" sounded familiar so she is going to ask around the neighbourhood and email me if she has any luck.
This would check out as in the 1901 census for Willhelm there are 3 houses just above his property which are unnamed and no proprietors. Probably still being built.
Looking at the Valuation Rolls all the houses are listed by their name and come under the address of 4 Craigcrook Road so cannot pinpoint which one was "The Linden". I wonder when they gave them all a number??? Today none of the house have their names just a street number.
Hope this helps you Brigitte and fingers crossed we may get some extra information from the lady at No 4.
Dorrie
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Hallo Dorrie,
thank you very much for visiting this area.Yes, fingers are crossed...it is so interesting :).
Have a nice weekend,
Brigitte
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Interesting to know all of that Dorrie. I had a sense of confusion when noticed so many Craigcrooks in the vicinity..... Craigcrook Road, Avenue, etc etc. :)
Nice of the locals to help you. Hopefully the resident of No 4 will be able to find something.
I am probably way off but I am still curious about No. 9 though, and the other older properties. (I would not expect you to knock on the door of every house in the street and many current residents probably wouldn’t know the history of their house anyway). Perhaps there is another way to trace their history? :-\
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Ruskie I have gone back over the valuation rolls and No 9 was Craigville prior to them giving the houses street numbers. This seems to have happened between 1930 and 1935.
There is a way to trace a house's history in Scotland and that is through the Title Deeds. I believe the Land Register Scotland also known as the Sasine Register (hope I have that correct) can do a search but it is quite costly. Maybe Brigitte would consider doing this ???
Dorrie
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Good morning Dorrie,
of course i would like to know if the house is still there and maybe have a photograph of it. But quite costly ist in the moment too costly for me ☺️ It would be interesting to know, but not really important.
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Yes, I know all these things are costly and we have to be careful not to overspend.
Hopefully, the lady at No 4 will find some information for you.
Dorrie
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:)
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There is a way to trace a house's history in Scotland and that is through the Title Deeds. I believe the Land Register Scotland also known as the Sasine Register (hope I have that correct) can do a search but it is quite costly.
Not quite.
The Land Register is a very new thing, and it records who owns land.
The Registers of Sasines go back to the 17th century, and they are the records of changes of ownership of land.
The Registers of Sasines are partly indexed, but I don't think the available indexes so far cover the 20th century, which means consulting the annual printed calendars, usually available in main libraries as well as in the National Library of Scotland and National Records of Scotland. You know when Wilhelm Kuhn died so you would only need to search a few volumes, and the valuation rolls would help with the dates of later changes. It would be necessary to do this in Edinburgh.
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Hi,
Further to my posts re 4 Craigcrook Road, in the Scotsman of 22 Sep 1934, the local Bridge Club secretary was Miss Alice Mckenzie, "The Ashby", 4, Craigcrook Road, Blackhall, Edinburgh.
Tom
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So the street must have been re-numbered and/or house names changed between 1920 when No 4 was 'The Linden' and 1934 when it was 'The Ashby'.
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See my reply #52 - No 4 was never the Linden - at least according to the present owner who has a full ownership history of her house.
It would appear from the Valuation Rolls that when the Linden was sold after the death of Wilhelm Kuhn in 1919 it was renamed.
Tidybooks - That checks out with the Valuation Rolls.
Dorrie
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Just to clarify things according to the 1915 Valuation Roll -
The Ashby - Proprietor - Mrs Elizabeth Mackenzie and Captain Donald Mackenzie, Master Mariner - this later became No 4 Craigcrook Road and verifies the information given to me my the present owner.
The Linden - Proprietor - Mr Wilhelm Kuhn.
From this we can discount The Linden becoming No 4 when they gave the houses street numbers.
Dorrie
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Gutten Abend Brigitte,
I have been looking at all the Valuation Rolls up to 1940.
Tidybooks has already given the information from the 1905 and 1915 Valuation Rolls so I will continue from there -
1920 - The Lindens - Craigcrook Road - Proprietor - Russell Paton - He must have bought the house after Wilhelm Kuhn's Death in 1919. There was a tenant in the property named William Doig.
1925 - Strathdon - Craigcrook Road - Proprietor - Russell Paton - He must have changed the name of the house at some point between 1920 and 1925.
1930 - Strathdon - Craigcrook Road - Proprietor - Russell Paton.
1935 - No House name just number 24 Craigcrook Road - Proprietor - Russell Paton.
1940 - No House name just number 24 Craigcrook Road - Proprietor - Russell Paton.
From this we now know that The Linden became Strathdon and then number 24 Craigcrook Road.
The house is still there and you can see it on google maps.
Best wishes,
Dorrie
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Oh, thank you Dorrie for finding out for me ;), i will immediatly have a look at GM.
Best wishes,
Brigitte
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I meant to say to you that it is the last house on the right before you turn into Jeffrey Avenue.
Sometimes GM does not take you to the exact address.
Dorrie
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Ah, i will have a look again.
Good Night Dorrie 😴
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Dorrie, when i stand in front of Jeffrey Avenue, is it the house on the right or on the left corner? I prefer the right one. :) You told me already....it is late, good night.😂
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You are correct if you are standing with the park at your back it is the one on the right hand corner. It has a black car in the driveway and a well trimmed hedge.
Dorrie
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👍🏼
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I was able to get a look at the Abridgements of Sasines.
840 (No 2). 1900-03-15. 3727/56. Disp by George Anderson, Builder, No 40 Shandwick Place, Edinburgh to William Kuhn, Print Seller and Picture Frame Maker, No 133 Lothian Road, Edinburgh of Area of ground, bounded on the south by Craigcrook Road, along which it extends 39 Feet 3 inches, forming the western division of 242/1000 Acre of ground part of the Lands of Craigcrook in the parish of Cramond dated Mar 14 1900.
6867. No 165. Mary 25 1920. 3-4. Disp by Suzanne Schnitzler or Kuhn, widow, residing at 33 London Street, Edinburgh, to Russell Paton, Organising Secretary, Royal Infirmary, Edinburgh, residing at 3 Craigcrook Terrace, Blackhall, in Area of ground bounded to the south by and extending 39 Feet 3 inches along Craigcrook Road,with House etc thereon, forming the western division of 242/1000 Acre of ground part of the Lands of Craigcrook in parish of Cramond, Dated May 15, 1920.
841 (No 3) records the sale of the eastern division of 242/1000 acres, extending 36 feet 3 inches on Craigcrook Road, by George Anderson to William Butler, grain merchant, No 16 Stafford Street, Edinburgh.
840 (No 1) records a feu by the Trustees of the Craigcrook Mortification to George Anderson, Builder.
So the story seems to be that in 1901 George Anderson acquired 242 1000ths of an acre from the Craigcrook Mortification (whatever that is), and probably did a deal whereby he split the ground into two parcels, sold them to William Kuhn and William Butler, and presumably built a pair of semidetached houses on it for them.
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Thank you very much for this interesting Story Forfarian! Also thanks for Dorrie, Ruskie and others who helped me to find the story behind the names and dates of Wilhelm and Suzanne.
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I forgot to add that Susanne also sold several other properties in other parts of Edinburgh.
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Aha? Do you know which one?
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Sorry, no, I didn't make a note of all of them. They were scattered all over the city.
But the 1915 valuation roll lists Wilhelm Kuhn as proprietor of 16 Viewforth, and Mrs Susanne Kuhn as proprietor of 8 Montpelier Park. In 1920 Susanne is listed as proprietor of both of those, and of 33 London Street.
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Ah yes, i have seen this.
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Great detective work Dorrie and Forfarian. I’m glad the house has been found and that it still stands, and still looks lovely. :)
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Well, I happened to have occasion to drive along Craigcrook Road today, so I stopped and had a look, camera in hand. Unfortunately there was a large van parked in the driveway of No 24. This is indeed the last pair of semi-detached houses shown on the 1908 edition of the 25-inch Ordnance Survey map https://maps.nls.uk/view/82877388. No 24 has a modern extension on its left.
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Craigcrook Castle is right across the road they would have had great views from the 1st floor. Btw Craigcrook Mortification is one of the oldest charities in Scotland and was created in the early 1700's when the then owner of Craigcrook donated the castle and farm to this newly formed charity which he founded. This is why you would have spotted their name in the registers. They funded the charity by selling small plots and continue buy and sell properties to raise funds.
Don
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Craigcrook Castle is right across the road they would have had great views from the 1st floor.
It's not across the road from Nos 23/24. They are opposite the park at the foot of Ravelston Hill.
Craigcrook Castle is about half a mile further west, on the lower slope of Corstorphine Hill. There might once have been a view from Nos 23/24 to the castle, but there's been a lot of building since 1905, and you don't get a decent unobstructed view of the castle from Craigcrook road at all now.
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I have 2 photo stents that say:
Mathias schnitzels
Printseller, carver, gilder, and artists colourman
19 Lothian road,
Edinburgh
I was hoping to get more info about these. Thanks