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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: Vixen999 on Sunday 20 October 19 15:27 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone, I went back over my family tree and realised I had got incorrect parents for my mother's grandparents and was hoping someone can help work out who Gertrude cummings parents are. Any help appreciated.
According to the 1939 census Gertrude cummings was born 1st Jan 1888 in birmingham. She was married to William swinden also born the same year.
William Swinden
Gender Male
Age 25
Birth Date 1888
Marriage Date 25/12/1913
Marriage Place Birmingham, St George Warwickshire England
Parish as it Appears Birmingham, St George
On the 1939 census there's a john cummings born 1890 and could be a sibling. He's widowed.
I can't find a birth index for Gertrude for 1888. On her marriage bans, a john cummings is listed as her dad and whose occupation is general dealer.
On a family history site, hints come up for a James cummings and Hannah Warrington or Hannah page. A Hannah page did have a daughter Gertrude cummings in 1890 but married a James not a john.
I did find a john cummings born around 1855/56 widowed who had a son John and a daughter Gertrude. On the 1911 census there is a 2 Yr gap between Gertrude and John and John seniors occupation is general dealer. Living in birmingham and born in birmingham. Amelia cummings aged 17 is also listed on 1911 census.
However on the 1901 census Johns birth year changes to about 1859 and Gertrudes to around 1890. The 1939 census specifies a precise birthdate for Gertrude of 1/1/1888
Any help confirming Johns information and his wife, Gertrudes mum would be gratefully received as I seem to be stuck working this out.
Thanks everyone
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Dates of birth on the 1939 register are not always accurate. You need to ignore the hints from family history sites, they are based on other peoples trees which are often wrong.
What address does Gertrude give on her marriage certificate.
That Birmingham family looks good. (ages on census are also unreliable.)
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I have now found her marriage - address Smith St
Her occupation on her marriage is French Polisher which ties in with the 1911 census you found.
Witnesses were John Swinden & Jennie Hancox
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Is this the 1901 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSZ1-8Q1
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I think that this may be the family in 1891 - living Queens Road, Aston. Same address as in 1901
RG12 / 2437 f10 p16
John Cummins age 28 occ Iron Wire Drawer bn Birmingham
Fanny Cummins age 31 bn Bidford, Warwickshire
Emily Brayne age 10 bn Birmingham
Gertrude Brayne age 11 months born Birmingham
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Birth June qtr 1890
Gertrude Brayne (no mothers maiden surname listed on GRO index)
Birmingham 6d 174
Emily Brayne's birth was registered December qtr 1880
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CUMMINS, JOHN mmn BRAYNE
1892 March Quarter in ASTON Volume 06D Page 406
CUMMINS, ALICE AMELIA mmn BRAYNE
1894 March Quarter in ASTON Volume 06D Page 431
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I have now found her marriage - address Smith St
Her occupation on her marriage is French Polisher which ties in with the 1911 census you found.
Witnesses were John Swinden & Jennie Hancox
Hi Rosie, yes that's the details I found. But on the 1901 census ages change but same people.
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Is this the 1901 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSZ1-8Q1
Yes that's the census
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I have now found her marriage - address Smith St
Her occupation on her marriage is French Polisher which ties in with the 1911 census you found.
Witnesses were John Swinden & Jennie Hancox
28 Smith Street I believe.
Hi Rosie, yes that's the details I found. But on the 1901 census ages change but same people.
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I think that this may be the family in 1891 - living Queens Road, Aston. Same address as in 1901
RG12 / 2437 f10 p16
John Cummins age 28 occ Iron Wire Drawer bn Birmingham
Fanny Cummins age 31 bn Bidford, Warwickshire
Emily Brayne age 10 bn Birmingham
Gertrude Brayne age 11 months born Birmingham
So is fanny 2nd wife or could she have been brayne?
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You would need to purchase Gertrudes birth certificate to see who it names as her mother
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Just joined Rootschat and not very confident about how it works exactly, so please forgive any mistakes.
Can't tell you how thrilled I was to see your posts re Gertrude Cummings (or, to give her name registered at birth, Gertrude Brayne). My maternal grandmother was Emily Brayne, Gertrude's sister, and my great grandmother was Fanny Brayne so it looks like we're related! From the drift of your posted conversations, I expect by now that you will have gathered the facts which I know - namely that both Emily (b. 1880) and Gertrude (b. 1890) were born in Western Road Workhouse, Dudley Road, Birmingham to Fanny Brayne, domestic servant, with no father's name being given. Sadly, this was something which my grandmother (Emily) tried all her life to keep secret.
I don't know if John Cummings/Cummins and Fanny Brayne actually married (even though she is described as his wife in the 1901 census, as you know) - I've never managed to find any evidence of this. It's surprising to me that Fanny Brayne had two 'fatherless' children ten years apart. If you are still active on this site there are family stories concerning Emily and Gertrude which began to make sense when we discovered the true circumstances of Emily's birth long after her death in 1962. I would be glad to share these with you and to know if you have anything similar to tell. Maybe these should be written in a personal message.
As for the Braynes in Bidford on Avon - and you may already know this - there are many Braynes in Bidford, but the main contenders in 1861, the year after Fanny Brayne was born, are Thomas Brayne and Jane, who had several children, including an Emily. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find a Fanny anywhere! The Braynes were canal people, Thomas having been born in Smethwick, along with other Bidford Braynes, and a large contingent of the family spread out to Eynsham in Oxfordshire. (See also posts re the Hambridge family which I found on this site.)
I've never been able to find a death certificate for Fanny Brayne, even though John Cummings is described as a widower in the 1911 census.
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Hi Rosalind146, I believe we are related. Gertrude was my grans mum, her daughter being Vera Swinden. Vera married George Hadley and they had my mother. I got stumped with Gertrudes details for some time, as there was a little discrepancy with her date of birth on one of the census's but any information you have about gertrude I would love to hear about and do you happen to have any photos of gertrude at all and her sister Emily. There are few photos of my side of the family especially swindens and cummings. I would love to chat further
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Wonderful to have such a prompt reply!
Unfortunately I'm unlikely to be able to tell you anything more substantial (i.e. factual) than you probably know already about Gertrude as I only came across her in 2003 when I was looking at the 1901 census. But we did suspect for many years before that that Emily had a sister as there's a family story involving someone who must have been Gertrude's son. So no, I don't have any photos of Gertrude, but I do have at least one of Emily which I will look out as soon as possible. But I'm not sure where to attach this so that you can see it.
Also I would love to mull over the early lives of the two sisters (Emily's side of which I do know something about. I learnt quite a lot from my mother and I was 17 when Emily died, so I knew her as well). Also in the 1911 census we see John and Amelia Cummings, both younger than Gertrude, living with their father, John Cummings (widower), together with Gertie Cummings (not Brayne as in 1901); were they full/half brother and sister to Gertrude and Emily? I wonder if you have any information regarding them? I've been meaning to get their birth certificates for ages!
Quite a lot to talk about - can you advise me if I should continue to this conversation here, (including any photos/documents) or through a personal message, which to me seems more appropriate.
Very much looking forward to continuing this and delighted to have found you! Rosalind
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Think it would be good to chat personally and look forward to it.
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Ive sent you two personal messages :)
quote author=Rosalind146 link=topic=820404.msg6924519#msg6924519 date=1586025365]
Wonderful to have such a prompt reply!
Unfortunately I'm unlikely to be able to tell you anything more substantial (i.e. factual) than you probably know already about Gertrude as I only came across her in 2003 when I was looking at the 1901 census. But we did suspect for many years before that that Emily had a sister as there's a family story involving someone who must have been Gertrude's son. So no, I don't have any photos of Gertrude, but I do have at least one of Emily which I will look out as soon as possible. But I'm not sure where to attach this so that you can see it.
Also I would love to mull over the early lives of the two sisters (Emily's side of which I do know something about. I learnt quite a lot from my mother and I was 17 when Emily died, so I knew her as well). Also in the 1911 census we see John and Amelia Cummings, both younger than Gertrude, living with their father, John Cummings (widower), together with Gertie Cummings (not Brayne as in 1901); were they full/half brother and sister to Gertrude and Emily? I wonder if you have any information regarding them? I've been meaning to get their birth certificates for ages!
Quite a lot to talk about - can you advise me if I should continue to this conversation here, (including any photos/documents) or through a personal message, which to me seems more appropriate.
Very much looking forward to continuing this and delighted to have found you! Rosalind
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Rosalind needs to make one more post to send and receive personal messages. (pms)
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Hi Rosalind146, I believe we are related. Gertrude was my grans mum, her daughter being Vera Swinden. Vera married George Hadley and they had my mother. I got stumped with Gertrudes details for some time, as there was a little discrepancy with her date of birth on one of the census's but any information you have about gertrude I would love to hear about and do you happen to have any photos of gertrude at all and her sister Emily. There are few photos of my side of the family especially swindens and cummings. I would love to chat further
Do you know much about Fannys family/parentage. You need to make one more post in order to receive personal messages. Ive sent two to you.
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Would you be able to help me find any information about John Cummings, who his siblings were, parents etc? I have found a couple census's but seem to be stuck on finding anything out about him though I am going to see if there is a link between john and Jennie Hancox. Thanks
I have now found her marriage - address Smith St
Her occupation on her marriage is French Polisher which ties in with the 1911 census you found.
Witnesses were John Swinden & Jennie Hancox
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Hi Vixen999 - I've sent you a long pm re Gertrude Cummings and Emily Brayne. I'm not sure if it was sent. being a newbie on this site. Can you let me know? Thanks
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Hey Rosaline, got your pms...going to read through them and get back to you via pm. Thanks
Hi Vixen999 - I've sent you a long pm re Gertrude Cummings and Emily Brayne. I'm not sure if it was sent. being a newbie on this site. Can you let me know? Thanks