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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: cattao on Saturday 19 October 19 04:33 BST (UK)
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I have a NSW birth transcription for Matthew Lonsdale Pickering, 1887 born in Lithgow, NSW parents George Pickering stated to be born Co. Durham and married to Margaret Carty in Newcastle, definitely not NSW Newcastle, but could it be Newcastle on Tyne, thence Northumberland?? Date not given of marriage. At least 3 other children before 1887 in NSW. Margaret birthplace also Co Durham Her name down elsewhere as Mc/Mac Carty. Any pointers on this couple please. Margaret sometimes listed as Mary.
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If this is George's in memoriam then someone thought his name was 'John George' and the children's deaths show their mother as 'Mary'. Did George remarry?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/239761280
How old were George and Margaret when Matthew was born?
Debra :)
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George 42, Margaret 38. Indexes sometimes listed wife as Mary, do not know a thing about George apart from his name on the M/C of Matthew and Ethel Oldham (first marr) mother listedas Mary Carty.
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Checked the trove link and it looks like we have found our George, names all fit in, many thanks I will hunt further for a death/funeral notice now looking for John George!!!
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BDM NSW birth
23421/1887 PICKERING Matthew L
parents George / Margaret @ Lithgow
marriage
5752/1915 PICKERING Matthew L marr. OLDMAN Ethel @ Petersham
Can you please list all the information on these two certificates. Are you looking at a (typed) transcription....or an image of a handwritten document.
What other certificates do you have for BDM events in the lives of the people you are researching.
Do you have death certificates for Matthew's parents?
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I really think that you should get both George's death cert and Violet's marriage cert to see who she names as her mother. I think that George had several relationships.
Debra :)
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May I please mention the County in which Newcastle, New South Wales, Australia, is the principal city is .... NORTHUMBERLAND ...
I have a NSW birth transcription for Matthew Lonsdale Pickering, 1887 born in Lithgow, NSW parents George Pickering stated to be born Co. Durham and married to Margaret Carty in Newcastle, definitely not NSW Newcastle, but could it be Newcastle on Tyne, thence Northumberland?? Date not given of marriage. At least 3 other children before 1887 in NSW. Margaret birthplace also Co Durham Her name down elsewhere as Mc/Mac Carty. Any pointers on this couple please. Margaret sometimes listed as Mary.
JM
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His death:
23141/1919 PICKERING John G father JOHN @ HELENSBURGH
Her death:
11382/1931 PICKERING Mary 85 YRS HELENSBURGH
I can’t see a suitable UK marriage.
This is a birth closeish to his birth year:
PICKERING, JOHN GEORGE mmn GIBSON
GRO Reference: 1848 J Quarter in DURHAM AND LANCHESTER Volume 24 Page 103
PICKERING, MARGARET ELLEN mmn GIBSON
GRO Reference: 1867 M Quarter in DURHAM Volume 10A Page 360
PICKERING, JOSEPH mmn GIBSON
GRO Reference: 1861 J Quarter in DURHAM Volume 10A Page 297
PICKERING, ALICE mmn GIBSON
GRO Reference: 1859 S Quarter in DURHAM Volume 10A Page 273
PICKERING, SARAH ANN mmn GIBSON
GRO Reference: 1855 D Quarter in DURHAM Volume 10A Page 226
PICKERING, HANNAH mmn GIBSON
GRO Reference: 1854 J Quarter in DURHAM Volume 10A Page 242
PICKERING, MARY JANE mmn GIBSON
GRO Reference: 1852 S Quarter in DURHAM Volume 10A Page 187
PICKERING, JOSEPH mmn GIBSON
GRO Reference: 1850 J Quarter in DURHAM AND LANCHESTER Volume 24 Page 102
PICKERING, ELIZABETH mmn GIBSON
GRO Reference: 1846 J Quarter in DURHAM AND LANCHESTER Volume 24 Page 98
PICKERING, MARY JANE mmn GIBSON
GRO Reference: 1844 J Quarter in DURHAM AND LANCHESTER Volume 24 Page 85
Possible parents of above:
Mar 1843 Auckland 24 13
PICKERING Richard
GIBSON Isabella
1851 and 1861 census:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGJY-M89
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M782-77F
This is all conjecture of course, given that the death cert has father’s name as John and the birth year is at odds with age at death.
Jamjar
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:)
New South Wales Electoral Roll 1878 NORTHUMBERLAND
George PICKERING, household, New Lambton.
NSW ER 1878 NEWCASTLE
James McCARTY, household, Lower Church Street.
ADD
Grevilles PO Directory 1875 NEWCASTLE
Martin CARTY, letter carrier, Post Office
NSW ER 1878, NEWCASTLE
Martin CARTY, household, Darby Street (no others with that surname on that roll)
NSW ER 1878 NORTHUMBERLAND
James CUMMINGS, household, New Lambton.
JM
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May I also offer some conjecture :)
22 June 1877 the ship ‘Commonwealth’ arrived in Sydney NSW. Onboard were many immigrants, including the following PICKERING family.
George, aged 33, a labourer, native place of Durham, Church of England, could read and write.
Alice, aged 29, also of Durham, CofE, and Read/Write
John G, aged 5, of Durham
Will Hy aged 1, of Durham, died during the voyage. (I think this wee lad was William Henry)
http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.aspx?Page=NRS5316/4_4800/Commonwealth_22%20Jun%201877/4_480000139.jpg&No=1 (scroll through to page 9 for the Pickering family listing and page 23 for the summary of the info).
George’s parents are named on some immigration documents held by NSW Archives and digitised by at least one commercial family history website. I read his parents as John & Elizh (of) Durham, and that he had a relative in the Colony, an Uncle, James CUMMINS, of Newcastle. The same document has Alice’s parents as B.D. … so un-named, and ‘both dead’.
RChat’s NSW resources board includes live links to the parish registers for the Christ Church Cathedral, Newcastle NSW.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/australia-resources-offers/
then to the NSW resources, then to reply #3 and part of it includes the following:
Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, Christ Church Cathedral, Newcastle
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606066769147/ 1820 – 1899 Family Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605008173551/ 1826 – 1837 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157604433014652/ 1837 – 1838 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605132739200/ 1839 – 1861 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605674610949/ 1856 – 1868 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605785759029/ 1869 – 1885 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605802132868/ 1885 – 1897 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606197590347/ 1899 – 1913 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605928662968/ 1913 – 1914 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606308436455/ 1914 – 1916 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606323070651/ 1916 – 1918 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606450662513/ 1918 – 1929 Marriage Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606952230042/ 1929 – 1936 Marriages Register
Hopefully that info will be helpful.
I should also carefully note that the Christ Church Cathedral is actually in the Newcastle suburb of Hexham, and Hexham in the county of Northumberland in NSW is so named in honour of Hexham, Northumberland, England.
JM
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This is possibly the marriage and births for the folk on the ship:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJN3-JS4
PICKERING, JOHN GEORGE mmn HARKER
GRO Reference: 1871 D Quarter in HOUGHTON LE SPRING Volume 10A Page 458
PICKERING, WILLIAM HENRY mmn HARKER
GRO Reference: 1875 J Quarter in HOUGHTON LE SPRING Volume 10A Page 632
I think birth and death of Alice:
HARKER, ALICE mmn CUMMINGS
GRO Reference: 1849 D Quarter in HOUGHTON LE SPRING UNION Volume 24 Page 198
1851 census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGJB-ZJD
NSW: 7617/1879 PICKERING Alice parents GEORGE and Hannah
George and Mary had an Alice who died in 1887:
9074/1887 PICKERING Alice LITHGOW
So, if this George is the husband of Alice who died, that would mean he married Mary/Margaret in Australia, some time after 1879. If they did in fact marry.
Jamjar
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more conjecture ;D
At the index for Durham Records Online there’s a baptism, Houghton-le-Spring, for a William Henry PICKERING, born 1875, of New Town,
https://www.durhamrecordsonline.com/
Likely that would be birth registered Durham district, April-June Quarter, 1875 GRO 10A/500
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/
And in 1871, John PICKERING, 49, and his son George, 25, and their unmarried female servant, Alice HARKER, 24 in the one household – Houghton-le-Spring. RG10, 4979/31/7
JM
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Wallsend Cemetery
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/136006422 Newcastle MH 27 March 1879.
THE Friends of Mr. George PICKERING are respectfully invited to attend the Funeral of his deceased
Wife, ALICE : To move from his residence,New Lambton .... to Wallsend Cemetery.
JM
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Wallsend Cemetery
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/136006422 Newcastle MH 27 March 1879.
THE Friends of Mr. George PICKERING are respectfully invited to attend the Funeral of his deceased
Wife, ALICE : To move from his residence,New Lambton .... to Wallsend Cemetery.
JM
John son of JAMES (of LAMBTON) funeral, also at Wallsend, 3rd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article138809968
6929/1894 CUMMINGS James parents JAMES and Margaret
4th column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article133203410
Jamjar
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;D
I am quoting the opening post here, and Wivenhoe's post too. I too am interested in the details on those NSW BDM registrations.
I have a NSW birth transcription for Matthew Lonsdale Pickering, 1887 born in Lithgow, NSW parents George Pickering stated to be born Co. Durham and married to Margaret Carty in Newcastle, definitely not NSW Newcastle, but could it be Newcastle on Tyne, thence Northumberland?? Date not given of marriage. At least 3 other children before 1887 in NSW. Margaret birthplace also Co Durham Her name down elsewhere as Mc/Mac Carty. Any pointers on this couple please. Margaret sometimes listed as Mary.
BDM NSW birth
23421/1887 PICKERING Matthew L
parents George / Margaret @ Lithgow
marriage
5752/1915 PICKERING Matthew L marr. OLDMAN Ethel @ Petersham
Can you please list all the information on these two certificates. Are you looking at a (typed) transcription....or an image of a handwritten document.
What other certificates do you have for BDM events in the lives of the people you are researching.
Do you have death certificates for Matthew's parents?
JM
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I believe that this is the marriage and death of the John G who was on the ship:
7186/1893 PICKERING John G to DYSON Margaret E WALLSEND
14254/1954 PICKERING John George parents GEORGE and ALICE KURRI KURRI
Death, 2nd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article134660332
Funeral: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article134661385
Jamjar
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I believe that this is the marriage and death of the John G who was on the ship:
7186/1893 PICKERING John G to DYSON Margaret E WALLSEND
14254/1954 PICKERING John George parents GEORGE and ALICE KURRI KURRI
Funeral: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article134661385
Jamjar
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/138745451 Newcastle Herald 16 Oct 1917... John DYSON's deceased estate administered by John George PICKERING and another. (ADD 3rd column)
JM
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There was a child born after arrival:
18486/1878 PICKERING James William parents GEORGE and ALICE LAMBTON
Jamjar
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Some answers
Marriage transcription typed from transcription agent for Matthew Lonsdale P (widower) and Agnes Martha Woodrow,spinster 1 Aug 1936 in St Paul's Church Church of England, Lithgow
His father deceased George Pickering
His mother deceased Mary McCarthy
His occupation, miner.
Birth transcription, same source and typed Matthew
Father George Pickering
Mother Margaret formerly Carty, her age 38 birthplace Co. Durham
George the father informant states birthplace Co. Durham England his age 42.
Print out (pos Ancestry) of 1st marriage to Ethel Oldham June 14 1915 father George Pickering mother Mary at All Soul's church Leichhardt.
On Mat Lonsdale entry at time of his birth there are 2 males living and 1 female deceased which could be baby Alice born 1886. d 1887
I had an inkling this George was going to give me problems!
Thanks for all the records they could fit in well but need working on,. I have been attempting to find a death/funeral notice for the fellow who was In memoriam 1920.
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May I ask please for you to type up all the details for Matthew's birth registration. Sometimes there's a clue there that will be the key to unfolding the mystery.
The headings are:
Date and place of birth of child
Name and whether present or not
Sex
Father's name, occupation, age and birthplace
Date and place of marriage - previous issue
Mother's name, and maiden surname, age and birthplace
Informant
Witness
Thanks, JM
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Ancestry Sydney Anglican Parishes BDM
All Saints Church Leichhardt 14 June 1915 (Church of England)
Groom: PICKERING Matthew Lonsdale Fireman bachelor age 27 years
Usual place of Residence: Vale of Clywdd, Lithgow, NSW
Birthplace: Vale of Clywdd, Lithgow, NSW
Father: PICKERING George, miner
Mother: CARTY Mary
Bride: OLDMAN Ethel domestic duties spinster 29 years
Usual place of Residence: Vale of Clywdd, Lithgow, NSW
Birthplace: Sofala, NSW
Father: OLDMAN William, miner
Mother: CROSSMAN Mary
Witnesses: George Edward HAMMOND, Catherine HAMMOND
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1915 marriage, both usually lived in Lithgow, so I wonder why they came down to Sydney, and married in Leichhardt? .... Anyway, thank you Wivenhoe for seeking and typing that up, for it shows that Matthew knew his parents were known as George and Mary Pickering, and that his mum was nee CARTY ..
Matthew would not have needed any formal documentary proof of that, so for example, he would NOT have needed his NSW birth cert ... his word was taken to be truthful, afterall he was providing it to a clegyman who was required to explain the huge fines for perjury to both the bride and the groom. £500 fines...
JM
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Looking for the Carty is driving me spare, so thought I’d go with something I could find.
I think this is daughter Alice:
Death:
71494/1973 TAYLOR Alice DIED AT WATERFALL Aged 82 YRS HELENSBURG
Death notice:
TAYLOR Alice Death notice 26 Sept 1973 Death 82 late of Waterfall Sydney Morning Herald 29 Sept 1973
Burial at Woronora Cemetery:
Alice Taylor 26-9-1973 Burial Methodist Monumental - Section Jj - 0144
Jamjar
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Daughter:
36842/1965 FRASER Violet Elizabeth parents JOHN GEORGE and MARY BURWOOD
FRASER Violet Elizabeth Death notice 23 Nov 1965 Death Sydney Morning Herald 25 Nov 1965
Death notice: Scroll to page 28: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=lL5f5cZgq8MC&dat=19651125&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
Their son:
22608/1979 FRASER Edwin Matthew parents EDWIN and VIOLET
Cremation at Woronora I think:
Edwin Fraser 1-10-1979 30-10-1979 Ashes Scattered
Daughter:
2243/1938 FARR Hilary John to FRASER Violet Gwendoline ANNANDALE
42860/1973 FARR Violet Gwendoline parents EDWIN and Violet BURWOOD
FARR Violet Gwendoline Death notice 16 Jan 1973 56 late of Cobar SMH 19 Jan 1973
Jamjar
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more conjecture ;D
At the index for Durham Records Online there’s a baptism, Houghton-le-Spring, for a William Henry PICKERING, born 1875, of New Town,
https://www.durhamrecordsonline.com/
Likely that would be birth registered Durham district, April-June Quarter, 1875 GRO 10A/500
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/
An 1875 birth in Houghton le Spring would have been registered in that district, not Durham, so the birth is more likely to be
Q2 1875, Houghton le Spring, 10a 632 William Henry Pickering, mmn Harker
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
Boo
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;D Many thanks Boo, much appreciated, :D
Following up on CARTY ... well it should not be this difficult, but ... anyways, here's some 'scatterings'
There's a baby born in Sydney in 1856 (Chippendale), no father's name on civil registration, there's a number of single females arriving to NSW who could be her mum (but may well NOT be), there's some arrivals as assisted emigrants, but nothing I can find to be 'confident' on ... sorry...
So I started out with the thought that Mary CARTY and Margaret CARTY as the same person, and likely born about 1850, and tried to connect that thought with the sightings in Newcastle NSW of a Martin CARTY in the 1870s (I have NOT achieved that specific goal) :
1849 to Port Phillip, Mary CARTY per the ship ‘Pemberton’ aged 17, house servant, of Dublin, Cof E, Read & Write. http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.aspx?Page=NRS5316/4_4816/Pemberton_14%20May%201849/4_481600247.jpg&No=1
1853, to Sydney NSW, Mary CARTY, aged 22 years per the ‘Australia’ (and a sister, Bridget 20 too) Tipperary, http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.aspx?Page=NRS5316/4_4790/Australia_8%20Jun%201853/4_479000543.jpg&No=1
1856, NSW BDM birth registration Mary, daughter of Mary CARTY, registered Chippendale (inner Sydney suburb). #1862.
1856 to Sydney NSW per the ship ‘Vocalist’, Martin, James, Ellen CARTY … siblings. Tipperary
Martin, aged 18, Ellen aged 20, James aged 22 http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.aspx?Page=NRS5316/4_4793/Vocalist_10%20Oct%201856/4_479300171.jpg&No=1
1864 to Sydney Mary CARTY aged 18, per Sirocco (2) Limerick, http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.aspx?Page=NRS5316/4_4798/Sirocco%20(No%202)%20[2]_3%20Oct%201864/4_479800122.jpg&No=1
1865 to Sydney NSW Martin CARTY aged 25 years arrived Sydney NSW per the Himalaya, and Mary CARTY, aged 22 years – likely to be siblings or cousins. (on the Single Males and Single Females lists) Dromahair, Leitrim,
http://indexes.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.aspx?Page=NRS5316/4_4798/Himalaya_3%20Mar%201865/4_479800184.jpg&No=1
It is of course possible that Margaret/Mary CARTY was aged 38 when Matthew was born in 1887, and thus she was well into her 40s when Elizabeth arrived in October 1892.
I am wondering who the informant was on the 1892 birth registration for Elizabeth, (DOB 19 Oct 1892) and what responses were given to the verbal questions posed by the recording clerk. NSW BDM #20275, so the info can be compared with Matthew’s birth rego.
JM
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Those on the Himalaya were sponsored by one Charles Carty:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13107374?searchTerm=%22Mary%20carty%22&searchLimits=l-state=New+South+Wales|||sortby=dateAsc|||l-title=35
I wonder if we can find a link with LONSDALE.
JAMJAR
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Umm... well there's a Charles CARTY - he was a Private who was involved in the Rum Rebellion ... he was the aide-de-camp to the chap who led the Military ... but that was in Major Geo JOHNSTON, 26 Jan 1808... he had arrived in 1802, and went back to England when Johnston went to face the court martial... http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/johnston-george-2277 .... ::)
LONSDALE ...
NSW ER 1878 HARTLEY
James LENSDELE, residence, Happy Valley (that's the exact spelling on my copy of that roll !)
NSW ER 1878 NORTHUMBERLAND
Edward LONSDALE, household, Commonage
George LONSDALE, household, Wallsend
NSW ER 1870 NORTHUMBERLAND
Edward LONSDALE, household, Commonage
George LONSDALE, household, Lambton
William LONSDALE, household, Commonage
;D ;D ;D
JM
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There was a constable Charles Carty in 1867, 3rd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60840104
Jamjar
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Wow that's a lot of info to absorb! Death transcription came today showing name as JOHN GEORGE PICKERING. aged 76 father John, mother unknown, informant John George Pickering, son, of Neath. another mining area in the Hunter Valley near Kurri Kurri.
Buried Church of England cemetery, Helensburgh. born Durham.
1 married OUGHTON-LE-SPRING, England should it be Houghton?? ENGLAND spouse Alice Hawker
2 married Mary Embleton Sydney NO MENTION OF MARY CARTY so who was she eh???
Children of first marriage John George aged 47 (informant?) William 39
Children of second marriage Matthew L, 33. Alice M 30 Violet 27 one female deceased.(she was another Alice died 1887.
Have searched the two Sydney morning papers for death and funeral but nothing so that is why they may have put such a large In memorium the following year.
This is getting more and more interesting! I will follow up the cemetery records with the church.
Thanks a million for the work done.
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Wow that's a lot of info to absorb! Death transcription came today showing name as JOHN GEORGE PICKERING. aged 76 father John, mother unknown, informant John George Pickering, son, of Neath. another mining area in the Hunter Valley near Kurri Kurri.
Buried Church of England cemetery, Helensburgh. born Durham.
1 married OUGHTON-LE-SPRING, England should it be Houghton?? ENGLAND spouse Alice Hawker
2 married Mary Embleton Sydney NO MENTION OF MARY CARTY so who was she eh???
Children of first marriage John George aged 47 (informant?) William 39
Children of second marriage Matthew L, 33. Alice M 30 Violet 27 one female deceased.(she was another Alice died 1887.
Have searched the two Sydney morning papers for death and funeral but nothing so that is why they may have put such a large In memorium the following year.
This is getting more and more interesting! I will follow up the cemetery records with the church.
Thanks a million for the work done.
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Sorry that post went in twice having dreadful trouble with internet.
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Far far better it be there twice than not be there at all...
;D
JM
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I am quietly confident that once we find the second marriage the Carty mystery will sort.
It is just a matter of finding it
JM
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There are births to a Thomas and Mary Embleton 1877-1880 Lithgow/Hartley
Jamjar
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7 Embleton burials in Lithgow cem, no Thomas or Mary.
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Thomas deserted wife, 1st column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article252053195
Could explain why no marriage for George and Mary.
Jamjar
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Your information from birth certificate for Matthew Lonsdale Pickering, 1887 -
".. At least 3 other children before 1887 in NSW...."
How do you see this on the birth certificate?. A birth registration would ask for "previous issue" but would not record the birthplace for them.
Can you please list all the information from this certificate...account for all the headings on the certificate.
For the death certificate for John George PICKERING, can you list all the information on the certificate.
If you have relevant comments to add, can you give them separately so that it is clear what is on the documents.
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NSW ER 1878 HARTLEY
Thomas EMBLETON, residence, Hartley Vale
William EMBERTON, residence, Petrolea Vale
James McCARTY, residence, Hartley Vale
JM
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Thomas deserted wife, 1st column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article252053195
Could explain why no marriage for George and Mary.
Jamjar
Six children ... 1877 Joseph
1879 Ellen
1880, Twins : Henry and John, sadly they succumbed as infants
1882 Catherine
Perhaps Mary moved to Newcastle, where perhaps her CARTY rellies were… Speculative, but I see a birth for Ethel M, parents as George and Mary A EMBELTON registered Newcastle 1884,
ADD, I was speculating... for on further checking I can see burials for George and for Mary EMBLETON, Sandgate Cemetery... sorry, I will strike through.
JM
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Maybe on the wrong track, see In Memoriam for Beecroft, 3rd column:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article219580543
She’s buried with a Henry Beecroft at Wallerawang.
Joseph: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/48560528/joseph-embleton
Jamjar
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Now reading this correctly, it is Joseph who married a Beecroft, 2nd column:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article220718498
8713/1903 EMBLETON Joseph married BEECROFT Ethel
Jamjar
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Agh, I will get my BEEcroft folders out tomorrow ... on the offchance I have some 'wallpaper' NSW bdm certs there... :)
JM
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Your information from birth certificate for Matthew Lonsdale Pickering, 1887 -
".. At least 3 other children before 1887 in NSW...."
How do you see this on the birth certificate?. A birth registration would ask for "previous issue" but would not record the birthplace for them.
Can you please list all the information from this certificate...account for all the headings on the certificate.
For the death certificate for John George PICKERING, can you list all the information on the certificate.
If you have relevant comments to add, can you give them separately so that it is clear what is on the documents.
Yes, this is very very important. Please do follow up ... its the info on the actual documents that most of us regulars try to sort through even if it is 'wrong' info, please do type it up as per each document, and then add comments separately. I am keen to learn exactly what was recorded on Matthew Lonsdale PICKERING's birth registration - all the info on it, spelling as per the document or the official transcription. :)
JM
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A coincidence:
1244/1901 FARNSWORTH Benjamin to EMBLETON Nellie HELENSBURGH
Added:
9472/1965 FARNSWORTH Ellen parents THOMAS and MARIA AUBURN
Death notice, 1st page: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=lL5f5cZgq8MC&dat=19650126&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
Jamjar
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Deleted
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Wivenhoe, see reply #15. ;)
Jamjar
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Deleted
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Wivenhoe, you may like to read from page one, to save you wasting your time. Those births are in reply #10.
Jamjar
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If this attachment gets through it will help with QUESTIONS
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Matthew Lonsdale Pickering birth page 2 attached
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The marriage of George an Alice gives his birth year as 1846, I see only one fit for him on Family Search 1851 census:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGJB-MZ5
1861: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7D4-LNB
That gives us:
PICKERING, GEORGE mmn SWINNEY
GRO Reference: 1845 D Quarter in HOUGHTON LE SPRING UNION Volume 24 Page 190
PICKERING, MARY ANN mmn SWINNEY
GRO Reference: 1847 J Quarter in HOUGHTON LE SPRING UNION Volume 24 Page 200
PICKERING, ELIZABETH mmn SWINNEY
1849 S Quarter in HOUGHTON LE SPRING UNION Volume 24 Page 198
PICKERING, JOHN mmn SWINNEY
GRO Reference: 1854 M Quarter in HOUGHTON LE SPRING Volume 10A Page 235
PICKERING, JOHN THOMAS mmn SWINNEY
GRO Reference: 1856 S Quarter in HOUGHTON LE SPRING Volume 10A Page 305
PICKERING, WILLIAM mmn SWINNEY
GRO Reference: 1859 M Quarter in HOUGHTON LE SPRING Volume 10A Page 329
PICKERING, ABRAHAM mmn SWINNEY
GRO Reference: 1861 J Quarter in HOUGHTON LE SPRING Volume 10A Page 343
PICKERING, HANNAH mmn SWINNEY
GRO Reference: 1864 D Quarter in HOUGHTON LE SPRING Volume 10A Page 363
The marriage possibly:
Sep 1845 Houghton le Spring 24 148
PICKERING John
SWINHOW Elizabeth
I know the George above is not John George, but his middle name may have been John. He arrived here under the name of George and was married as George. Only his death has him as John George.
I wonder if he had other members of his family come out, also.
Are you going to get a transcript of Mary’s death?
I see no Margaret Carty and only one Mary, close to her stated birth date:
CARTY, MARY no mmn
GRO Reference: 1851 D Quarter in DURHAM Volume 24 Page 77
Something wrong with the marriage year on birth cert: 23 MAR 184
Jamjar
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re death transcription of Mary. I probably will, having thoughts about it. Have asked agent to check if Alice Hawker could be Alice Harker and then I would be on the right track with the first spouse and Mary's death should have her maiden name!! The person I am researching for is not at all interested in the bits and pieces found, just wants a direct line, not like us real genes who have to know the whole family!!
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Yes re birth year on the cert, have asked that be checked also.
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Good points JJ.
Many thanks Cattao for the transcription of Matthew's birth, registered Lithgow NSW 10 Oct 1887.
Until around 1918, births were all recorded as a result of verbal questions, of the baby's parents by people who were often part timers. Formal compulsory schooling did not commence in NSW until the mid to late 1870s, so parents were often without quality education in respect to NSW Government Admin requirements, but also sometimes those part timers were also lacking full understanding of the Admin requirements and purposes etc.
So, the document shows 'Newcastle' for the place of that marriage of Matthew's parents. I am absolutely sure that that means Newcastle, New South Wales, I am absolutely confident on that, but that does NOT mean that is where or when George married Matthew's mum. It just means that the clerk asked George 'where and when did you marry' and George has answered 23 March (and the year) at Newcastle. BUT the clerk couldn't write down the year properly... likely he meant 1884 :) but that's a tight squeeze for that many births prior to Matthew....
I will speak with some of my elderly relatives who are retired NSW BDM senior officers. May not be back with further comments on that b.c. transcription for a day or so...
JM
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Just to add though, Christ Church Cathedral, Hexham, Newcastle NSW - C of E, 1884 marriages in the Cathedral (but not at other C of E churches within the parish or across the diocese)
NOT found George PICKERING in March 1884
Line 171, 5 February 1884 MCNEIL and MAY
Line 172 7 April 1884 MITCHELL and McCOLL
JM
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.......
And in 1871, John PICKERING, 49, and his son George, 25, and their unmarried female servant, Alice HARKER, 24 in the one household – Houghton-le-Spring. RG10, 4979/31/7
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I cannot find this 1871 census listing at familysearch, sorry. But I found the marriage there, so less than one month after that census was taken, George married Alice.. :)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJN3-JS7 Alice HARKER married George PICKERING 24 April 1871.
so that's not a March marriage... :)
ADD,
https://www.freecen.org.uk/ Transcript of that 1871 census with that household is there on that link.
JM
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There is a marriage on Familysearch, 31 May 1869, South Shields St Hilda, Thomas Embleton, 19, father Thomas Embleton, and Mary McCarty, 20, father John McCarty.
In 1871 census, 24 West Row, Boldon,
Thos Embleton, 21, Coal Miner, b. Windy Nook,
Mary ", wife, 20, b. South Shields,
Mary H. ", dau, 2, b. South Shields,
Cuthbert ", son, 1, b. Boldon
RG10; Piece: 5035; Folio: 68; Page: 21
Mary Hannah Embleton, b. June qtr 1868 South Shields, mothers maiden name on GRO : Curty.
Cuthbert Embelton, b. March qtr 1870 South Shields, mothers maiden name on GRO : McCarty.
A few family trees on Ancestry have Cuthbert as Cuthbert Railton Embleton, marrying in Australia in 1894, dying in Australia in 1918. Mary Hannah Embleton marrying in Australia, dying in Lithgow, Australia in 1958.
There is this Mary Elizabeth McCarty, b. March qtr 1848 South Shields, mothers maiden name on GRO : Railton.
In 1861 census, No 3 Johnson Hill (Mill?), Westoe,
John Mc Carty, 49, Mariner, b. Ireland,
Margaret ", wife, 44, b. Northumberland St. Ann,
Mary ", dau, 12, b. South Shields,
Eleanor ", dau, 8, b. South Shields,
Elizabeth ", dau, 6, b. South Shields,
Robert ", son, 3, b. South Shields,
RG 9; Piece: 3788; Folio: 41; Page: 20
Next door, but at the same address is a Johnson Railton, widower, mariner, 71, b. Barnard Castle.
In 1851 census, 15 West Holborn, South Shields,
Margaret McCarthy, wife, 32, Mariners Wife, b. Newcastle,
Catherine ", dau, 11, b. South Shields,
Margaret ", dau, 9, b. South Shields,
Cuthbert ", son, 7, b. South Shields,
Eleanor ", dau, 4, b. South Shields,
Mary Elizabeth ", dau, 2, b. South Shields,
HO107; Piece: 2400; Folio: 262; Page: 13
Marriage at Jarrow St. Paul, 9 June 1836, John McCarty and Margaret Railton.
Alan.
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A family tree on Ancestry has kindly uploaded Cuthbert Railton Embletons marriage certificate. 30 Jan 1894, St. Marks Church, Golden Square, Bendigo, Colony of Victoria. Says he is a Miner, age 24, born Shields, England. Father - Thomas Embleton, Blacksmith, Mother (Maiden surname) - Mary Carty.
Alan.
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Excellent, Alan.
I still can’t get past George hooking up with the deserted Mary in Lithgow.
Cuthbert died 1918 in WA.
Yes, Mary Hannah DYKES (EMBLETON), the daughter, died Lithgow 1958
Does that tree mention Thomas, the father, a remarriage for Mary, or a marriage between George HAMMONDS and C-Katherine Embleton in 1902?
Jamjar
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I'm getting very confused with all the names you folk have found and many thanks for all that. I have been checking out Houghton le Spring and there is a mine - Pickering mine!!!! a few Pickering names mentioned in a very early explosion in one of the local mines. In the census both father John and son George are listed as labourers, not miners but that doesn't mean anything really. I'm waiting for verification of Alice's maiden name Harker not Hawker and then it would be safe to follow up with the shipping found earlier??
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The names aren’t difficult. ;)
It’s not inconceivable that both Carty and Embleton were used on certs, if Mary Carty was first married to an Embleton.
Jamjar
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Can you refresh my memory, where have you seen both Harker and Hawker?
I see Harker only.
Jamjar
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Just sent off for Mary Pickering's death transcription, so fingers crossed for the info I need.
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Let’s hope it doesn’t throw a spanner in the works. ;D ;D ;D
Jamjar
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At the moment I see a lot of spanners!
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The daughter a Mary Hannah (born 1869), also ends up in HELENSBURG.
Births to the couple:
6 born in LITHGOW and then 4 in HELENSBURG.
One of which:
22573/1902 DYKES George J C parents JOHN J and MARY H HELENSBURG
John J then dies in 1927, back in LITHGOW:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article16353480
It all seems clear to me, but I could be off track. ;)
Jamjar
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NSW electoral roll 1902 ILLAWARRA, polling Helensburgh
John DYKES, of Helensburgh, miner
Mary Hannah DYKES, of Helensburgh, domestic duties.
Mary PICKERING, of Helensburgh, boarding house keeper
George PICKERING, of Helensburgh, miner
JM
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Death notice for the son George J DYKES confirms the LITHGOW/HELENSBURG birth connections, 1st page:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=lL5f5cZgq8MC&dat=19740129&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
Jamjar
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Alice Hawker 1st spouse to John George on his death trans. I now have John George and Mary Pickering burial spots in Wollongong Memorial gardens, from the office there, along with a John P. Pickering so will search for his connection.
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Did they give you a year of death for John P?
27602/1961 PICKERING JOHN Peter H parents LESLIE PETER G I and BERTHA EMERLINE HELENSBURGH
Birth:
11077/1888 PICKERING LESLIE P G J parents GEORGE and ELLEN WOOLLARAH
Death:
PICKERING Leslie Peter Gowing Ibbotson Death notice 8 Aug 1957 Death 69 at Repatriation General Hospital, Concord, late of Mortdale Sydney Morning Herald 9 Aug 1957
Unless you are saying John P is buried with George and Mary, I can’t see a relationship.
Jamjar
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Date of death 1961 he isn't buried with them. They are in 59 and 59a. There is another Pickering family in the Hurstville area and he may belong to them, not important t follow him up If I feel the need to find if there are headstones etc I can follow it up with a local f.h. group who have indexed the cem. It is very hot here in Moss Vale quite unusual, hard to stay awake!
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I added to my last post.
34 central west NSW.
Jamjar
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Attaching Mary Pickering's death transcript, there are three pages 2 are corrected re George, I couldn't separate them but give info that could be handy. Did Mary take her father's name Carty as on the cert for Matthew L. no mention of Embleton. Will have to go back over previous messages to read what came in on the Embleton name.
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She is the Mary Carty who married Thomas Embleton in UK. Thomas is the one who abandoned her in Lithgow.
The Embleton children I posted are supported by those names on her death certificate.
Maybe someone was asked what her previous name was, so either would be correct.
So, mystery solved except for her marriage to George, which may not have eventuated.
Jamjar
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My thoughts also, thanks for taking this on board. How to write this up and enter into my Legacy will keep me busy.
Maxine
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I found it all most interesting. ;D
Jamjar
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I'm late to the party and I haven't yet started the puzzle of Mary Carty ???
George Pickering (b.1845 Houghton Le Spring) was my 3rd Great Uncle he married
Alice Harker (b.1849 Houghton Le Spring)
Their children were
John George Pickering (b.1871 Houghton Le Spring)
William Henry Pickering (b.1875 Houghton Le Spring) (died on board ship)
James William Pickering (b.1878 New South Wales)
George, Alice and John George arrived in Australia in 1877. William Henry died on board during the journey.
John George Pickering (b.1871 Houghton Le Spring)
Married
Margaret Elinor Dyson (b.1875)
Their children were
John George Pickering (b.1899 New South Wales)
Alice Pickering (b.1912 New South Wales) (d.1913 New South Wales)
And I think there's a third child but haven't got the info yet.
John George Pickering (b.1899 New South Wales)
Married in 1923
Alma Elizabeth Drinkwater (b.1901 New South Wales) (d.1941 New South Wales)
John George Pickering (b.1899 New South Wales)
Married again in 1942
Evelyn Ada Vero (b.1901 Boulder) (d.1976).
That is as far as I have got so far and by the looks of it I have a lot more to go.
Julie