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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Essex => Topic started by: mrnz2014 on Monday 14 October 19 14:48 BST (UK)
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This quest has been thwarted on many fronts due to a lack of verifiable information. "Remittance Men" had a preponderance to alter/change their name(s) in order to minimise their profile, traceability and /or to protect the identity/reputation of their family.
I have been passed a set of WW2 medals named to "PETER STANDISH SAVILL" whose descendants I would like to return the medals to.
Peter S. SAVILL arrived in NZ approx 1937. He lived in Timaru, a port town in the South Island of NZ. Peter
This is what is known, taken mainly from his New Zealand Army war service file. This information was recorded in 1939 at enlistment:
Peter Standish SAVILL
DOB: There are TWO - Death Cert states: 06 Jan 1907; Enlistment record states: 08 Jan 1913
POB: Channel Islands - Sark (it is believed he may have been born in Essex?)
Occupation: Seaman
Education: English Public School (UK)
Location & Level: not stated
Last Employment: c/o CLAYTON STATION, Fairlie, South Canterbury
Employer: A. McKenzie
Occupation: Farm Labourer
Current Address: c/o 42 Gray Road, Timaru
NOK 1939: Mrs Pauline SAVILL (mother)
NOK Address: La Belle, Hautgarde, Nice, France
Father: Peter SAVILL (taken from Death Cert/Hospital Record) - states "born in France"
Father's Occup: Tailor
Mother: Pauline SAVILL
DOD: 25 Jan 1991, New Zealand - 84 yrs.
Buried: Timaru Cemetery (Returned Services Section)
Cause: Cancer
NZ MILITARY SERVICE
Regt No. 22422
Rank: Gunner
Unit: 5 Field Regiment(Reinforcements) 2NZEF - 2nd NZ Divisional Artillery.
Corps: RNZ Artillery
Post: RHQ - Clerk
Embarked: April 1940 > Egypt
Campaign: North Africa
POW in Germany: 11 Feb 1942 - Interred at Campo 57 at Gruppignano near Udine, Italy.
3200 prisoners, mainly Aust & NZ W/Os and soldiers.
POW Released to UK: 27 Apr 1945
Returned NZ: Dec 1945 - admitted Queen Mary Hospital, Hanmer on arrival NZ - "Anxiety and
Malnutrition" - 3 mths in care.
Discharged: Apr 1946
CIVIL EMPLOYMENT
1938-39: Clayton Station, Fairlie - Farm Hand
Note: known as P.S. SAVILLE from this time.
Boarding Address: 62 Otipua Road, Kensington, Timaru
Electoral Roll entries below vvvvv:
1949: Clerk at Otekaieke Special School for Boys (delayed & learning difficulties) - Waimate,
South Canterbury
1954 Otekaieke Special School, Oamaru Clerk
1957 Waipiata, Otago, Central Otago Attendant (petrol station)
1963 62 Otipua Rd, Kensington, Timaru Seafarer
1963 62 Otipua Rd, Kensington, Timaru Seafarer
1972 62 Otipua Rd, Kensington, Timaru Seafarer
1981 62 Otipua Rd, Kensington, Timaru Retired
1990 Timaru Public Hospital
1991 Death - Cemetery records occupation as: "Retired Gentleman"
WILL: Bequest of $3000 to Timaru Hospital, $2000 to NZ Red Cross, $2000 to Cancer Society,
balance "to my friend Mary Nicol" of 68 Bowker St. Kensington, Timaru.
Quite a few unknowns - I have more info to add re sea service but too much for this post. If someone out there can connect any dots or verify any connections, I would be most interested to hear from you as I am now stuck ! Email me for the rest of the story.
Kind regards,
Ian D. Martyn
Nelson, NZ
E: medalsreunitednz@gmail.com
W: www.medalsreunitednz.co.nz
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Hi Ian
Timaru Cemetary
Peter Standish Saville, buried Row 163. Plot 289.
Betts Funeral Services Ltd, conducted his funeral.
Have you already been down the route of checking with the Funeral Directors (who are still in business) as to what information they might have for Peter on the record they hold for him? That can sometimes reveal important clues as to family members - I usually make a phone call, and have always found the directors I've called very friendly and helpful.
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hello Ambly,
Thank you for your response and suggestion. I have not yet contacted the funeral company and will follow that up.
Kind regards
Ian
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Hi Ian,
He is mentioned (as P S SAVILL) in the RSA publication Last Post, issue of April 1991.
Readers of this topic should also refer to Ian's very detailed and helpful post on the forum British Merchant Navy Old Friends Plus.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01oio/
Spades
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Thank you Spades,
I must add that since my original post in 2017, some clarification of detail has been made. As a result readers may detect variations in the SAVILL / SAVILLE information posted on Rootschat yesterday which should now be considered the most accurate available to date.
As indicated yesterday there is more information to be added to the mix......... here it is:
PHILLIP SAVILL, a son of one of the Shaw, Savill Line owners was born about the same time as Peter Standish SAVILL professed to be, c1907. Phillip's sea-going record is in the Shaw Savill Society History Archives, UK. (verified by Soc Sec, Graham Pepper)
Phillip Savill's first posting to sea was as a CADET on Shaw Savill ship, SS Matatua on 24 April 1925.
Phillip's service is recorded as follows, these records are NZ Maritime Immigration ONLY - Savill is recorded in all cases as "P. SAVILL", never a first name. His ships and rank are summarised below.
NZ ARRIVALS for "P. SAVILL":
1925, 17 Dec – SS Matatua arrives Wellington, ex Southampton - Crew: P. SAVILL - CADET
1926 – SS Matuata – CADET
1928 – SS Mataroa – 5th MATE
1928 – Taranaki – 4th MATE
1930 – Maimoa – 3rd MATE
1932 – RMS Coptic – 3rd MATE
1933 – RMS Coptic – 3rd MATE
1935 – Waipawa – 2nd MATE
1936 – 1937, 28 May – P. SAVILL ceases service with Shaw Savill Line as 2nd MATE / OFFICER.
Location of discharge - unknown
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1938-1939 – Peter Standish SAVILL employed as farm labourer, c/- Clayton Station, Fairlie, South Canterbury NZ
Could PHILLIP SAVILL, ergo P. SAVILL of the SS Matatua and PETER STANDISH SAVILL (used SAVILLE after 1946) be one in the same ? To my mind, yes they could however PROOF is required.
Any assistance is gratefully appreciated.
Kind regards
Ian D. Martyn (Maj. Retd)
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Hi again, Ian,
You're probably eliminated this already, but have you tried finding a link through the parents of Peter Standish SAVILL, e.g. Mrs Pauline SAVILL (mother), of La Belle, Hautgarde, Nice, France (in 1939) and Peter SAVILL, a tailor 'born in France'?
Who were the parents of Phillip SAVILL of the Shaw Saville Line?
Also, is there any record of the death of that Phillip SAVILL?
Look for the probates of either Pauline or Peter SAVILL (died in France, perhaps?) to see who they left bequests to, and whether Peter Standish SAVILL is mentioned. This route may lead to siblings and then to their descendants.
Spades
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Wikipedia lists a reference citation on this page which might be worth following up, as it's for a book by a possible descendant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaw,_Savill_%26_Albion_Line
Sail to New Zealand: The Story of Shaw Savill & Co., 1858-82. London: Robert Hale. ISBN 0709028091.
Spades
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I can only see one Philip SAVILL b 1907 GRO has MMN as GORDON.
Leonard Webb SAVILL m Ethel Margaret GORDON 1896
Leonard an east India merchant, his father Martin SAVILL an aerated water manufacturer.
Martin was a younger brother of Walter SAVILL and it is he (Walter) who was the Savill of Shaw Savill
So Philip b 1907 was a great nephew of Walter.
A tree on Ancestry has this Philip marrying a Rona Richardson in 1934
In 1939 they both are on a passenger list, arriving UK country of last residence Sudan. This Philip is an Art Master age 32. So correct age.
However in 1945 there is a crossed out entry for a Philip SAVILL age 38 on a passenger list. Embarked Sudan. Occ given as Master Mariner, proposed address in UK Sudan Govt, foreign office
Philip SAVILL b 13 Mar 1907 died 28 Jan 1988. Eastbourne Sussex registration
Added. 1911 Leonard Webb family with Philip
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7LM-SG9
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Thank you Spades for both responses. I have tried all these options and drawn a blank - the problem I believe is that Peter & Pauline Savill are not the real names of his parents. I had a Channel Islands researcher from the history society on the islands scruitinize the records for any Savills and all variations of the names - nothing that befits PSS or his 'parents'.
My gut instinct is the family is likely from either Essex, Kent or London proper. Savill was 26 and 360 days on 04 Jan 1940 (he specified this in completing his attestation for NZ Army (b: 8 Jan 1913). The form was completed & signed in his own hand without the hint of hesitation or correction with the exception of inserting ^ "Standish" on the line requiring full name, and signature, which leads me to think his answers were genuine (if unrehearsed?). He listed himself as SAVILL (minus the E).
The one link I have yet to delve into is with a Dr. Chris N. Savill in Parnell Auck whom I believe is connected, as is an Amberley farming family, one of two grandsons of Frederick James Savill emigrated in the 1910s and established a very successful station called "St Helens" near Hanmer during the first half of last century. Frederick was the 4th son (11 children) of Walter SAVILL of the shipping line, and Matilda Helen BURNESS.
Regards, Ian
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Mckha489
Thank you for your valuable input - I was almost swayed when I first saw this information some time ago (age, m mariner etc) but had to rule it out on the strength of Peter Standish's 'alleged' birth date of 08 Jan 1913 on his NZ Army attestation form. It is noteworthy that the NZ Timaru Hospital records and his Death Cert his birth date as: 06 Jan 1907 (per Savill’s NZ Death Certificate). The revised birth date (1913) may have been linked to a desire to gain entry to the Army by reducing his age although he fell well within the age limits permitted for o'seas service. I imagine at the time he was hospitalised he would have had no reason to falsify his birthday so perhaps 1907 is the most correct, ergo very close to Philip's however Peter Standish did not decease in 1988 nor in Brentwood?
I did find it ironic that Philip for a man obviously sent to Sudan to gain experience or .....etc (as was the practice for a number Savill men) that all the ships he sailed on were Savill line ships and all involved NZ as a destination? The maritime link is strong but connecting any identity link between Philip and Peter Standish I think is a no go. The problem is that none of the information I have from NZ records is verifiable as accurate or otherwise. The date variations re birth does not even take me to another Savill of similar vintage who fits the bill.
I remain stuck at this point and welcome any other ideas.
Thank you for helping.
Regards, Ian
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Hi Ian,
A very intriguing case is this. Will be very interested in see what may come of the Funeral Director angle!
Who was the informant to his death? Wondering if it was his friend, Mary Nicol of 68 Bowker St. Kensington, Timaru. From Electoral Rolls etc, it looks like her husband was Alexander Wyper Nicol (~1913-1978). Maybe they have descendants who might know something?
Also, the Frank SAVILLE, 2hrs old, who is also buried in Timaru Cemetery, buried 1955, (different Row & Plot to PSS) - did you ever track down who his parents were?
The other question is.. wondering if you've ever looked into the following chappie - who, I've discovered, comes from a family where it's surname 'Saville' wasn't always...
On the Nominal Roll that you have for PSS, care of Clayton Station, Fairlie, listed after PSS is:
Maurice Melbourne SAVILLE, of Horwell Downs, Fairlie, Sth Canterbury (b 1913-d 1966)
NoK: mother E.M SAVILLE of Horwell Downs.
Searching the Electoral Roll, it becomes evident, his family is at least comprised of:
Frederick George SAVILLE, runholder, father
Elsie Mary SAVILLE, married, mother
Plus a SAVILLE brother George and a sister Margaret, both with middle name Bromley.
Searching NZ BMD:
MARRIAGE: Elsie Mary BROMLEY, to Frederick George SCANES in 1906
BIRTHS: Parents given names: Elsie Mary and Frederick George
Margaret Bromley SCANES, born 1907
Joan Copelstone SCANES, b 1909
Maurice Melbourne SAVILLE born 1913, mother: Elsie Mary
(There is also another SCANES family, obviously related : John Coppelstone SCANES and wife Helen Louisa POWNEY, who married 1910).
In the WW1 New Zealand Army WWI Reserve Rolls, is Frederick George SCANES, Horwell Downs.
There's much more to look at in this angle, but I can see that as far back as 2010, someone was looking into F G Scanes, in the UK records - but maybe that was yourself?
added: Looks like the SCANES to SAVILLE change was made legal via deed poll 1926
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ois/
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi Ambly
No reply yet fm Funeral Dirs – file archived, requested.
Re NICOL – highly likely informant. Alex Wyper N. (Motherwell , Lanark) and Mary H. (surname unk) marr in Scot (prob Glasgow); living 595 Glasgow Rd, Glasgow 1950-51. Emig to Wgtn 30 Dec 1952 – he a Fitter. Went to Dunedin on arr , staying c/o Robertson, 45 Maryville Tce Mornington (family?). Fitter/Engr. Left Dnd c1965 for Timaru – listed in 1969 art Bowker Rd (cnr section) on Otipua Rd. PSS lived diag opp, 50 off meters fm Nicols. Alex died 1978. Mary remained, probably neighbourly. She did not die until 1991 so would poss have cared for PSS as long as he remained at 62 Otipua (believe he boarded). House sold 6 weeks after death. Relationship with Nicols prob incidental.
Frank Saville born/bur 1955 (2hrs) – Parents UNK. The other Frank Saville born 1917-1999 (Parents, James W. and Emm E. Saville)
Maurice Melb Saville – interesting that MM also in NZ Artillery – he and PSS would likely have met, was also a Clerk by trade. Went with 2nd Echelon to Middle East with 7 Anti-tank Regt. Had looked at this family from Horwell Downs previously – interesting that HD prop is very near Clayton Station, same area. No apparent connx. But why would PSS, a public sch educ, well spoken and cultured upper class, snappily dressed man who spoke several languages and whose occup was Seaman, take a job as a farm lab at Fairlie ?? unless there was a connex, or he wanted to hide ?? Philip Savill finished his sea service in 1937 around same time as PSS came ashore in NZ (all ships Philip on were SSL with NZ destinations ??)
Neither is there any connex with the (Shaw) Savills of St Helens, Hanmer - Walter Savill (fndr of S-Sav) brother Frederick James emig to NZ and built “St Helens” sheep station. Mentioned in David Savill’s History of the SS Line.
SCANES – Fred George fm IRE, wife Elsie Mary BROMLEY fm Vic Aust.
Got to be something that makes the connex ? – PSS getting month Remit Cheques fm mother and cashing at ANZ Timaru. Threatened to come home if they were late!
Statement from Queen Mary Hosp Hanmer also revealing:
PSS in QM 1946, post POW care. Mother, Mrs Pauline SAVILL – could not be contacted. Medical File advises ‘considerable difficulty has been experienced in regard to his next-of-kin; those previously nominated by him have refused to continue as such’. PSS advised NOK now: Miss Maureen FINLAY of Temuka.
NOK: 1946 “Friend” – Miss Maureen FINLAY, 22 Dyson St, Temuka } refused to be PSSs’ NOK !! Deceased.
1946 - Another “FRIEND” nominated by PSS as NOK – Miss Elspeth BURBURY
“Sherwood” Waiau, Hurunui, Nth Canterbury } also refused to be PSS’s NOK !! (Memo 21 Jan 1946) – Burbury went to live in Hamilton after war, Occupation: Gardener. Died. ‘Miss Burbury became NOK as SAVILL stated that his Mother & Sister were killed in Spain during the rebellion and his Father has been missing since that period.’
‘Medically boarded at QM Hospital, requested fitness to attend Court Martial in England – NOT fit to undergo any form of punishment. Suffering anxiety state & malnutrition following time in POW Camp.’
Got to be a connex / answer somewhere – grateful for any suggestions.
Ian
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PSS getting month Remit Cheques fm mother and cashing at ANZ Timaru. Threatened to come home if they were late!
How do you know this?
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Anecdotal from Rootschat - Savill rented 42 Grey Rd house/flat from father of the informant (Owen) below. I found this when initially exploring Rootschat for SAVILL info in 2017:
- Re: Remittance Men sent to the Colonies
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 10 October 2004 07:11 BST (UK) » 2017
Yes ! when I was a young man living in Timaru N.Z in 1953, there was a remittance man who came from England.. He was from the Savill [the shaw savill] shipping line; his name was from memory Peter. He rented a flat from my father, and spoke beautiful English, recited Bobby Burns and of course was mostly well imbibed, the drunker he got the better he recited. He collected his remittance every month by cheque and cashed it at the local ANZ bank.
Hope this helps,
Owen S. Powell
Owen & Ann POWELL - we live 100 kls. north of Sydney on the lakes
================================================
In addition, a Timaru researcher responded to my Ancestry.com query in July 2017:
"Unbeknown to my husband G...., Peter Savill was an acquaintance of his father (deceased) who worked at the Club Hotel as a barman 1945-65; then went to Grosvenor Hotel. Peter was also friendly with another family friend, Betsy McK. She is the one who can remember him (Peter) quite clearly.
She told me this gentleman (Peter) belongs somewhere in the Savill family of Shaw Savill Shipping. She said he was very intelligent and could apparently speak several languages so not sure if he was used in any way during the war?
Very well dressed, good quality well cut suits, a bit of a talker who liked a few drinks. He boarded at 62 Otipua Rd, Timaru which interestingly was sold about 6 weeks after he died in 1991.
She also said that he was a ‘remittance man’ sent away when he supposedly got a maid pregnant. Apparently his family paid for the child’s education. Whenever he wanted more money he used to threaten to go back to England !
Either during or just after the war he was in England and walked up the long drive to his house and rang the bell. The butler answered. He came back and said his father wasn't home but Peter could see him through a window sitting by a fire. Families!"
The medically related info is from his military file, as provided by the then QM Hosp Superintendent.
The plot thickens .....
Regards, Ian
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OK, thank you. It is fascinating isn’t it.
I wondered about the spinster daughters of Walter, whether one of them was actually his mother, but still don’t see any likely birth.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding something, but I don’t see how he can be Phillip, as Phillip is accounted for later than 1937.
You don’t actually know if P Saville on those ships IS Phillip do you? Isn’t there some overlap with his Sudan dates which would rule that out?
Perhaps his name wasn’t even Peter Saville?!
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I think you are right. Philip Savill and Peter Savill(e) being seaman may be coincidental as is the P. Savill connection to NZ. However the Shaw Savill Soc Pres Graham pepper, confirms Philip Savill on said ships and dates as previously reported. So he must have visited NZ often until he finally signed off in 1937 - in the UK, and as you say is accounted for until his death in the UK.
I have always doubted the "Peter Standish" part of his name but Savill/Saville in what ever form, I think may be right, PS not wanting t let go of such a distinguished connection (just modifying his surname by adding the (e) to deflect attention fm family. The only other Savill's of note connected to same family was a brewing arm, I think through Walter Savill's older brother Ebenezer Savill. Theorretically PSS could have claimed connex to shipping SSL through any one of Walters brothers? (or sisters, if he changed his name to Savill from whatever it was he had been born??)
Harder & harder the deeper one looks !
Ian