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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Kincardineshire => Topic started by: sdgillen on Saturday 12 October 19 21:43 BST (UK)
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This is more about Elisabeth Duncan than it is James Gordon, but I figured I should start with the information I know is accurate and work my way outwards.
So James Gordon was born 1798 and baptized in Inverkeilor, Angus. He is the son of Charles Gordon and Ann Croll.
There are two marriage records on Scotland's People between James Gordon and Elizabeth Duncan, with several months between each. James is said to be from the parish of Marykirk, and Elisabeth from Fordoun. This part isn't as important, but why is there a different record for each of them?
Elisabeth's death certificate has her listed dead at age 73 in 1872. Her parents are listed as James Duncan and Helen Smith. However, there is no listing of a marriage between James Duncan and Helen Smith in that time period, regardless of what spelling of the first name Elisabeth I use. However, there is a late November 1798 birth/baptism in Fordoun, where only her father James is shown on the actual baptism record. Before clicking on buy/view, the parents' names are listed: James Duncan and Jean Brand. Neither Helen smith nor Jean Brand are written on the baptism record.
There are two marriage records in Kincardineshire in the 1790s between a James Duncan and Jean Brand: June 2, 1792 in St. Cyrus, and June 16, 1792 in Benholm. I haven't bought either, though.
So I guess the first concern here is, who is Elisabeth's mother?
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When a couple decided to marry, they went to the session clerk and had their names recorded, the banns were then read and the marriage took place. What a marriage register tells us varies. Sometimes it is just the intention to marry, sometimes the reading of the banns is recorded, sometimes the fact that the marriage actually took place is added. Where a couple came from different parishes, the banns were read in both places, hence the two records and the different dates. Where two such records survive, it is always worth seeing both, as one might contain information not included in the other. The marriage is generally more likely to have taken place in the bride's parish.
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".....Elisabeth's death certificate has her listed dead at age 73 in 1872. Her parents are listed as James Duncan and Helen Smith".
Where did Elizabeth die.......what cause of death......who is the informant....where is Elizabeth buried?
Can you please list all the information on this death certificate.
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".....Elisabeth's death certificate has her listed dead at age 73 in 1872. Her parents are listed as James Duncan and Helen Smith".
Where did Elizabeth die.......what cause of death......who is the informant....where is Elizabeth buried?
Can you please list all the information on this death certificate.
She died in Dundee, cause of death was bowel obstruction, and the informant was her son in law, David Mowat (the husband of her daughter and my 4xgreat aunt Jane Gordon). Unfortunately, I don't know anything about her burial. It's not on the record, and I couldn't find it on deceasedonline.com.
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For Burials in Dundee, may be worth contacting although there may be a small charge?
https://www.dundeecity.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/Burial%20Records.pdf
Annie
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For Burials in Dundee, may be worth contacting although there may be a small charge?
https://www.dundeecity.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/Burial%20Records.pdf
Annie
Thank you; I just emailed them. I'll follow up here when I hear back.
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You are interested in two James DUNCAN marriages, 1792. What would be on these records that could confirm / refute the possibility that either marriage is for the parents of your Elizabeth DUNCAN who married James GORDON.
Death certificate for Elizabeth GORDON, died 1872......can you please list all the information on this document.
Where is your Elizabeth GORDON at 1871 Census?.
Her parents on the death certificate....James DUNCAN / Helen SMITH. As mother of her children this Helen would be SMITH. This Helen would be SMITH at her first marriage. If she marries James DUNCAN as a widow, she would be Helen ***. .....anyone.
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In Scotland woman legally kept their maiden name so Helen would be recorded as Smith in legal documents she would be Helen Duncan or Smith
SD what are the names of Elizabeth children oldest to youngest as this could provide a clue to her parents as her son in law may not have known her mother's name
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Does the DC give Helen Duncan, M.S. Smith or Helen Smith with no M.S.?
Annie
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Unfortunately, I don't know anything about her burial. It's not on the record, and I couldn't find it on deceasedonline.com.
DeceasedOnline is a commercial web site which is set up to provide a service to councils by digitising and putting online their burial records, and to members of the public by making the information available for a fee. It is not an official repository of information, and it does not have agreements with every council in the country.
As far as I know, the City of Dundee has not signed up to put its burial records on DeceasedOnline. You have to contact the city council direct.
It's not usual for the place of burial to be on a death certificate - this information was only recorded on death certificates from 1855 to 1860-ish.
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There are two marriage records on Scotland's People between James Gordon and Elizabeth Duncan, with several months between each.
I was a bit puzzled by this, but whwn I checked in index, the two records are in Marykirk on 12 February 1819 and Fordoun on 6 March 1819. That isn't 'several months' apart, it's just 22 days apart. It may well be that the Marykirk record refers to the first time the banns were proclaimed, and the Fordoun one may contain the actual date of marriage. Three weeks between first proclamation and wedding isn't unusual.
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Does the DC give Helen Duncan, M.S. Smith or Helen Smith with no M.S.?
Annie
Helen Duncan, M.S. Smith
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So I'm still not sure who this Jean Brand person is, and why she's her mother at Elizabeth's baptism, but Helen Smith is her mother at death.
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"the informant was her son in law, David Mowat"
Could he have picked up the question of 'mother' wrong & given his own mother's name/maiden name?
I've often seen wrong info. on DCs where in-laws or g/children are the informants i.e. not unusual.
Annie
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However, there is a late November 1798 birth/baptism in Fordoun, where only her father James is shown on the actual baptism record. Before clicking on buy/view, the parents' names are listed: James Duncan and Jean Brand.
Are you saying that they have indexed a baptism with a mother's name, but no such name appears on the original record? Have you asked SP what is going on there?
Debra :)
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"the informant was her son in law, David Mowat"
Could he have picked up the question of 'mother' wrong & given his own mother's name/maiden name?
I've often seen wrong info. on DCs where in-laws or g/children are the informants i.e. not unusual.
Annie
No, his mother was Margaret Stewart
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However, there is a late November 1798 birth/baptism in Fordoun, where only her father James is shown on the actual baptism record. Before clicking on buy/view, the parents' names are listed: James Duncan and Jean Brand.
Are you saying that they have indexed a baptism with a mother's name, but no such name appears on the original record? Have you asked SP what is going on there?
Debra :)
They said that assuming I have the same Elizabeth Duncan for both records, then the only possibility is that the informant made some sort of mistake regarding the mother.
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"However, there is a late November 1798 birth/baptism in Fordoun, where only her father James is shown on the actual baptism record. Before clicking on buy/view, the parents' names are listed: James Duncan and Jean Brand"
"Are you saying that they have indexed a baptism with a mother's name, but no such name appears on the original record? Have you asked SP what is going on there?
Debra :)"
"They said that assuming I have the same Elizabeth Duncan for both records, then the only possibility is that the informant made some sort of mistake regarding the mother."
This doesn't answer the question of whether Jean Brand is named as mother on the image of the baptism of Elizabeth in 1798?
Can you quote exactly what's written on that baptism please including witnesses?
Annie