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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: aschiebe on Monday 07 October 19 23:39 BST (UK)
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Hi there,
I am brand-new to this forum, so if this inquiry isn't in the right place, I apologize.
Would someone be able to go to Samlesbury Hall and inquire about 2 paintings they have there? They are of a man and woman in Puritan dress. I would LOVE to see full-length, high-res picture of each of them, and for someone to tell me if there are signatures on them somewhere. The common assumption that I've come across in my research is that they are paintings of Edward (b.1590-1622ish) and Alice, née Carpenter (b.1590-1670) Southworth, but I don't have any proof to substantiate this claim...
For reference, I have some very low quality screenshots of the paintings in question.
(https://i.ibb.co/3rJRyj6/Screen-Shot-2019-10-07-at-6-28-08-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/3rJRyj6) (https://i.ibb.co/6ngcVTM/Screen-Shot-2019-10-07-at-6-28-15-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/6ngcVTM)
Thanks in advance to anyone who is willing and able to help me out with this!
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Welcome to RootsChat :)
Have you tried contacting Samlesbury Hall? There are contact details on their website:
https://www.samlesburyhall.co.uk/
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Hi BumbleB, and thanks for the reply!
I have contacted Samlesbury several times about the paintings, and only once did I ever receive a reply. They stated that they didn't know who the paintings were supposed to be of and did not have any records of them ever having been purchased....
I find it somewhat hard to believe that absolutely nothing is known about these paintings, and I still hold out hope that someone can figure this mystery out. Being in the States, it's a bit hard for me to do some firsthand sleuthing of Salmesbury and the Lancashire area, so naturally, I was super excited to find this forum!
The reason it's of such interest to me is that Edward and Alice Southworth are my 10th great grandparents, and Samlesbury Hall is the ancestral family home of the Southworths. I came across the supposed painting of Alice very early on in my genealogical research and was excited at the possibility of a painting existing of someone so far back in my family tree. However, I quickly learned that it was not for sure a painting of Alice and wanted to to do some research myself to see if it was or wasn't.
Unfortunately, I've only hit dead ends. At the very least, if a signature on the portraits is visible, that would be something to go on. Knowing who the artist is could help narrow down who the couple is.
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Let's hope that someone will be willing to look. If I lived in the area, I would do it myself, but I don't :(
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It would very unusual for a painting of that period to be signed by an artist - I suspect knowing that they are "possibly" or "could be" Edward & Alice Southworth is about as good as you are going to get.
(Salmesbury Hall is a place I know well from my own childhood, but no longer live anywhere close)
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Hello and welcome :)
Do you know that they are definitely exhibited at the hall?
There are various references to Alice in family histories and trees. This is just one example
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ohf/
I wondered if this one is in US?
I have always thought the Southworths of Samlesbury were Catholic - St John Southworth was born 1592.
Heywood
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Deleted, information already given
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Hello and welcome :)
Do you know that is definitely exhibited at the hall?
There are various references to it in family histories and trees. This is just one example
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ohf/
I wondered if it is in US?
I have always thought the Southworths of Samlesbury were Catholic - St John Southworth was born 1592.
Heywood
Yes, the paintings are, for sure, at Samlesbury. There's a photo on Alamy showing the parlour area, and you can see the one painting on the wall in the background. And it is interesting that, in a predominantly Catholic family home, there would be paintings of a Puritan couple.
https://www.alamy.com/grand-baronial-hall-in-samlesbury-hall-in-lancashire-in-northern-england-image4127496.html
(https://www.alamy.com/grand-baronial-hall-in-samlesbury-hall-in-lancashire-in-northern-england-image4127496.html)
I've never seen a reference to any paintings in wills, etc. I've read Alice's will, and it makes no mention of paintings, nor do her son's wills. My assumption is that, if they are of Edward and Alice, then they were left in England before their planned voyage to Plymouth Colony. They were supposed to be on the Mayflower with the rest of the Pilgrims in September of 1620. But Edward, who apparently suffered from poor health, was ill and died sometime between 1620-22 in London. Funnily enough, Alice came over in 1623 on the ship, the Anne, and married the governor of Plymouth Colony, William Bradford!
That's a good point about there not being a signature on the paintings due to the era in which they were painted. I wonder if there are any other places an artist would have "signed" his name? On the back perhaps?
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Yes, I see what you mean.
It’s best to put a link to your picture for copyright reasons though.
Interestingly there are other pictures of the parlour also without that particular one.
It is a wedding venue and this photo is from that site
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ohh/
This is an older one
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rpsmithbarney/21167153134
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Yes, I see what you mean. It’s best to put a link to your picture for copyright reasons though.
Fixed it! :)
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I visited Samlesbury Hall a couple of years ago taking some photographs, I will go and have a look to see if there is anything interesting in the photographs.. :)
Sarah
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Reading the Wikipedia page about the hall, it seems that it was sold in 1670s and stripped of its interior features.
Various things happened to it after that.
It seems unlikely to me, that Southworth paintings would be saved and exhibited in our modern times back in the hall - only my opinion though.
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Reading the Wikipedia page about the hall, it seems that it was sold in 1670s and stripped of its interior features.
Various things happened to it after that.
It seems unlikely to me, that Southworth paintings would be saved and exhibited in our modern times back in the hall - only my opinion though.
Also a good point. I guess somewhere along the way, these paintings could have been acquired and it was just assumed that they were of Alice and Edward.
A tour guide by the name of Simon Entwistle actually shows the paintings in his video tour of Samlesbury, but he refers to them as being of Thomas and Anne Southworth. On what he bases that information, I don't know.
https://youtu.be/tgTebt2Qv0c?t=206
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Are these paintings connected to the ghosts of Salmesbury Hall, allegedly one of the most haunted buildings in England, I wonder? We often drove past the hall on the way to visit my grandparents very many years ago and always felt a shiver seeing it, as we had been told the story of the White Lady, Lady Dorothy Southworth, I think, who wanders the hall grieving for her murdered lover.
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It might be worth contacting Simon Entwistle
http://tophattours.co.uk/contact/contact.html
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Also a good point. I guess somewhere along the way, these paintings could have been acquired and it was just assumed that they were of Alice and Edward.
A tour guide by the name of Simon Entwistle actually shows the paintings in his video tour of Samlesbury, but he refers to them as being of Thomas and Anne Southworth. On what he bases that information, I don't know.
Do you know which Thomas Southworth it was? Thomas Southworth c. 1497-1546 married Anne Stanley (b. c1500) and Dorothy Boteler. Their dress doesn't look of that era imo, assuming it was a contemporary portrait. Thomas Southworth c1548-1616 married Rosamund Lister.
Was the dress of the couple specifically Puritan or just a restrained style worn by not well-off gentry?
The last Southworth owner of Samlesbury, Edward, died in 1694. He sold the Old Hall and the manor in 1679, 3 years after his father's death.
I watched the video. I remember the priest-hole upstairs from when I visited as a child (era of the b&w photos).
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I contacted Simon Entwistle about the video he made that featured the paintings and received this reply.
The film was made some 16 years ago by the Accrington film makers and was read from script .
So it looks like he doesn't know anything either. ???
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I live in Preston and Samlesbury Hall is not far at all. I can probably take a visit in a week or so.
I can have a chat to the staff and my 12 year old son will be thrilled to do a bit of investigation work.
👍
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I live in Preston and Samlesbury Hall is not far at all. I can probably take a visit in a week or so.
I can have a chat to the staff and my 12 year old son will be thrilled to do a bit of investigation work.
👍
Fiona, that would be absolutely wonderful!!! Thank you ever so much! I appreciate you and your son doing this ;D
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That is brilliant!
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It will be a pleasure. I am sure that someone at Samlesbury Hall will know something about where the information about the paintings will be kept. When I know what day I'm visiting I will let you know and you can give me any specific requests.
👍🙂
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I have only just come across this thread -- and Fiona, if you can go on a Sunday when a Witch tour is on -- it is hilarious!
Make sure you check opening days as it doesn't open every day. I have just checked the website - and I notice they seem to be doing something for the dreaded Halloween (which I hate!) but your son may well be interested in that.
Also - if for any reason you cannot go -- I live near it also so could happily be the 'reserve'.
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Hi all, just checking in to see if any one ever made it to Samlesbury to inquire about the paintings :)
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I thought Fiona was going during half term. Not sure whether half term at the school her son attends would have been last week or this week.
It differs from place to place.
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I live about 20 minutes away from Samlesbury Hall.
Not sure if the pictures are still there, we do have a number of images that we have taken but none that show the pictures concerned.
There is not to much original pictures and furniture in the Hall given its size, it used to be used as an antiques centre but now its open for visitors to roam around the Hall and grounds
We have had a particularly good reason to visit the Hall in that my Wife is a descendent of the Southworth and Stanley families. One of the images we took is of the Southward family tree to which you are welcome to have a copy, pm me with your email address.
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Good images here:
https://www.staidan.org.uk/photos.php?pgid=229&photoid=1504110551
They remind me of paintings by a Dutch artist whose name escapes me. Lovely paintings.
Carol
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Have you seen this:
https://www.staidan.org.uk/photos.php?pgid=229&photoid=1504110551
Carol
Added: The two links that I posted are the same site by mistake. The other interesting link that I found I will post tomorrow.
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Have you seen this:
https://www.staidan.org.uk/photos.php?pgid=229&photoid=1504110551
Carol
2 photos are of family trees.
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Yes Maided Stone, thanks for the heads up, I posted the link twice by mistake.
Carol
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This is the tree that I found, but you most likely have already seen it, but interesting to read anyway:
https://www.geni.com/people/Edward-Southworth-of-Samlesbury-Leiden/6000000002248073930
Carol
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The reference to the ghostly "Lady Dorothy" by Gillg took me back! I also recall my father telling the tale whenever we drove through that area after dark - usually on the way back from visiting relatives. We always watched out for her.... never saw her though.
I also felt that Salmesbury had few if any items of original furniture/paintings left there. The picture of a puritan lady is not very unusual, many portraits around seem to show similar outfits. It's not all that likely that there will realistically be any provable links, I'm afraid. Certainly not signatures.