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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: jacqueline cox on Saturday 05 October 19 15:41 BST (UK)
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Why are so many of my silversmith Sweeting and weaver Orange ancestors who lived in Bethnal Green baptised in St Leonards, Shoreditch and claim to live in New Inn Yard? Other records prove it is untrue. What advantage was there?
What was special about New Inn Yard? If you don't know, where can I look?
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What period of time did the baptisms take place?
https://london18.co.uk/streets1832/NewInnyardShoreditch.shtml shows street directories from 1832 and 1842.
http://www.mernick.org.uk/thhol/raglon04.html has an excerpt from "Ragged London" (Hollingshead 1861)
http://www.census1891.com/viewhouse.php?sid=10 has a transcript of the 1891 census.
In 1891 (and probably for many years previously) New Inn Yard was mostly factories or warehouses, two pubs and several working class dwellings.
Charles Booth's map has New Inn Yard as "Fairly comfortable. Good ordinary earnings".
Philip
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These baptisms are both sides of 1800 to the mid 1830s. I have suspected for 15 odd years that the Shoreditch address, NIY, in St Leonard's parish was where the fathers worked, but they lived in St Matthews parish in Bethnal Green. Did St Leonards have some advantage? There was no charge for baptisms in the c19th, though there had been for some time before the late 1790s so it wasn't cost.
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I'm not sure about the answer to your question-but have you seen the other baptisms re:Charles SWEETING 1832?
There are 2 others with the same address-Eliza Pamela DOWNES-who dies Bethnal Green:
Eliza Pamella Downs
in the England & Wales, Non-Conformist and Non-Parochial Registers, 1567-1970
Maureen
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This is an interesting puzzle. I just wish I had a simple answer! :D
FamilySearch has many SWEETING and ORANGE BMDs - do yours link to James SWEETING and Mary Ann ORANGE (tree on FamilySearch)?
If St Leonards Shoreditch PRs have the address as New Inn Yard where does the information that they lived in Bethnal Green come from (are the "other records" reliable sources)?
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Hi is this James & Mary Sweeting in 1851:-
James Sweeting 47 occ Silversmith b Dartford
Mary 46 b London
With family at Wellington Place, Bethnal Green
Census ref HO107/1541/533/21
Keyboard86
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This is my family, but Mary Orange was not d/o Abraham Orange and Mary Chester as is found in most trees but Joseph Orange and Susanna Manchee (DNA matches confirm Manchee as well as Orange descent) The Orange family were also giving NIY addresses while living in Bethnal Green.
There are enough instances so i want to know why they did it. I need someone with detailed knowledge of that patch of Shoreditch.
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There was no charge for baptisms in the c19th, though there had been for some time before the late 1790s so it wasn't cost.
The Church of England has never charged fees for Baptisms. Under the Stamp Act of 1783 (23 Geo. III, c.67) a tax of three pence was levied on each Church Register entry of birth, baptism or marriage, except for paupers. There was such a popular outcry against this tax that it was speedily repealed in 1794.
Stan
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Ok, I was using words carelessly. i expect it felt like being charged to the people carrying their babies to church. But the thrupence is not the reason why my Sweetings and Oranges - James Sweeting and Joseph Orange claimed to live in Shoreditch when they lived in BG. I have had all the census returns and baptismal records concerned for nearly 20 years and have been gently wondering for as long; it wasn't until today that I decided to find out if anyone knew anything about New Inn Yard.
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Sorry, not quite sure what your problem is :-\ St Leonard, Shoreditch is the adjacent parish to St Matthew, Bethnal Green.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/102345964
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I know where St Leonards and St Matthews are, I walked from St Dunstans to St Lukes once (in the middle of the London Marathon!) via St Matthews, St Leonards, Christ Church, St Sepulchre ( not necessarily in that order, but approx). Although people walked greater distances than we tend to now, carrying a baby further than necessary, and constantly giving the same incorrect address make me question if something else was going on, that local knowledge might help with.
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To PhilipSearching re Robson's and 1842 Directories: The number of wood working businesses in NIY could explain why Joseph Orange gives the address. He was a cabinet maker and later had his business in York Street BG. Silversmithing was very common in Clerkenwell and the previous generation of Sweetings hung out around St Lukes. Only a step up the road(s) to St Leonards but why New Inn Yard.....
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Why are so many of my silversmith Sweeting and weaver Orange ancestors who lived in Bethnal Green baptised in St Leonards, Shoreditch and claim to live in New Inn Yard? Other records prove it is untrue. What advantage was there?
What was special about New Inn Yard? If you don't know, where can I look?
These baptisms are both sides of 1800 to the mid 1830s. I have suspected for 15 odd years that the Shoreditch address, NIY, in St Leonard's parish was where the fathers worked, but they lived in St Matthews parish in Bethnal Green.
FamilySearch has many SWEETING and ORANGE BMDs - do yours link to James SWEETING and Mary Ann ORANGE (tree on FamilySearch)?
If St Leonards Shoreditch PRs have the address as New Inn Yard where does the information that they lived in Bethnal Green come from (are the "other records" reliable sources)?
.........the thrupence is not the reason why my Sweetings and Oranges - James Sweeting and Joseph Orange claimed to live in Shoreditch when they lived in BG. I have had all the census returns and baptismal records concerned.........
Now I'm confused. (It doesn't take much to confuse me!)
Baptism records up to the 1830s are before the first useful census of 1841. If the baptisms prior to 1841 give New Inn Yard as the address, what are the sources for the families living in Bethnal Green?
If censuses (1841 onwards) give the family address in Bethnal Green were they still having children baptised at St Leonard Shoreditch?
Where did family marriages and burials take place?
Philip
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I have been reading this thread with interest. :)
Good point Philip. Do you think it might help if Jacqueline can give a list of each:
Event, place, abode noted on PR, date, actual address where they lived ....
(eg baptism, St Leonards, NIY, 1830, Bethnal Green)
It might help to look at the events laid out in order to try to understand. :-\
Like BB I didn't really understand what the issue was with the family using a possibly larger, grander church in a neighbouring parish, and put it down to just personal preference. Or a nicer vicar perhaps. ;)
I wouldn't be unusual for families to live "above the shop", or some addresses may be residences above with commercial/business on ground level (which may still be the case today).
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They're not the only family living in New Inn Yard and having children baptised at St Leonard.
Charles Sweeting, baptised 19 August 1832 - son of James and Mary.
Same day has baptisms of Thomas Frost, son of Thomas and Ann, and Eliza Pamela, daughter of George and Sarah Downes - both with address as new Inn Yard.
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New Inn Street was very long, NIY was off it. Property belonged to Bateman (see Bateman's Buildings) I think Woods Buildings and King John's Ct were all part of the Warren. 100s of baptisms. Including some of Mary (Sophia)'s siblings. I'm off to check my A_Zs of Georgian, Regency and Victorian London; haven't looked for years.
Then to look at Joseph and Susanna's children inc Mary Sophia, born Curtain Rd Shoreditch 1804 bapt 1805.
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OK, St Leonard, Shoreditch - 30 September 1821 baptism for Caroline Orange - address given as Woods Buildings. Same day is a baptism of Ann Delaforce - address given as New Inn Yard.
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Google Maps - showing Curtain Road, New Inn Yard and St Leonard's church
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Curtain+Rd,+Shoreditch,+London/@51.5257014,-0.0803149,16.99z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x48761cb06b8a5b5d:0xe4d3c6c8a04b2a2b!8m2!3d51.5244842!4d-0.080285
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More baptisms at St Leonards - obviously their preferred venue ;D
Edward - 1843 - address - New Inn Yard
Mary Susan - 1844 - address - New In Yard
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HELP? WHERE HAS MY LIST GONE?
I listed parents of James Sweeting (William 1775-1862 silversmith and Mary Riches) addresses for bapts of their children Leonard St, Hosier Lane 1801-1813, then James, son no 2 1803 - 1860 also a silversmith and his 2 women Elizabeth Eldon wife chn born 1823 -1829 (Eliz.th Mary, Amelia, William, James Henry, Martha Lydia) mainly KIng Johns Ct area to 1825, St Lukes 1828, Haggerson 1829 and Mary (Sophia) Orange partner chn born 1832 - 1846. Most known addresses Wellington Row BG but several baptismal addresses New Inn Yard (1832,1844) . Some births known only from burials: twins Charles and Lydia 1832, George 1833-4, George 1834-5, Henry (James) my 2x gt gfather 1836, Charles Ernest 1837, Louis 1838, David 1840, Alfred 1841, Edward Riches 1843, Mary Susan 1844 and Edward 1846 with bapts and Churches and addresses given. I noted addresses from Land Tax and the places of birth given by the surviving children in censuses.
AND IT IS NOT HERE!
Silversmithing was concentrated in Clerkenwell, furniture trades in Shoreditch - note enormous number of timberyards around New Inn Yard.
Joseph Orange was father of Mary Sophia Orange. He was a cabinet maker. He gave Curtain Road, New Inn Yard addresses in 1804, 1807, 1811, Woods Buildings 1821, and York Street BG 1814. He was listed as an elector there in 1838, and died there in 1863.
I still don't get it. I give up!
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Aaaarrrgh :'( :'( :'( Always have a back-up somewhere :-*
I got my information from Ancestry!!
And just to point out - the entry I found for Edward Sweeting's baptism 11 September 1843 gives no indication of "Riches" - just the date, parents, occupation as Silversmith, and "New Inn Yard".
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I put the list into this conversation as requested by Philip and Ruskie. But it went somewhere else....
GRO Birth certificates
Edward Riches Sweeting, born 27 June 1843 2 Wellington Place, son of James Sweeting and Mary Sweeting formerly Orange, occupation of father silversmith, registered by James Sweeting, father, 2 Wellington Place, 8th Aug 1843
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Edward Sweeting born 10 Sept 1846 2 Wellington Place, s/o as above mother as above, occupation ditto registered the x mark of Mary Sweeting, mother 2 Wellington Place 20 Oct 1846
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Apologies - baptism didn't mention Riches. :'(
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I have a similar situation cropping up in my family tree (surnames Worby, Chillingworth, Herbert, Crow(e)). In the censuses they give their place of birth variously as Bethnal Green, St Lukes, Spitalfields, yet each was baptised within a couple of weeks of their respective births at St Leonards Shoreditch, with the given abode being a place in Shoreditch (Mail Coach Yard, Holywell Lane, Saunders Gardens, New Inn Yard).
My assumption is that one's perception of place in such a crowded area might not necessarily correspond with the actual parish. I assume St. Leonard's was used because it happened to be the closest church.
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Hi, I've just come accross this thread.
My ancestor was Mary Charlotte Woodbine, her father John Woodbine was a Whitesmith. Her baptism in 1801 at St Leonards gives an address of New Inn Yard. Census returns for her show her place of birth as Bethnal Green. I too am mystified. I am wondering if her father listed his workplace so that he could use St Leonard's church.
I can't tell if they were actually living in New Inn Yard. The church would have only been a few minutes walk away though. Perhaps my ancestor thought it easier to describe her place of birth as Bethnal Green? I don't know enough about the area at the time to come to any conclusion.
Incidentally, the family moved on to Greenwich sometime before 1813 but Mary's father returned to St Leonard's to marry his second wife but continued to live in Greenwich.
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I haven't looked at this for yonks, but there are enough of us in the same position to suggest that the the given addressees - NIY , Woods etc, being in Shoreditch but the residences being in Bethnal Green looks as though there must have been a perceived or actual advantage.
And I'm still no closer to knowing what it was....!
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It is strange Jacqueline. It could even be a case of a dislike of the vicar at Bethnal Green. I'd need to look more closely at the church records.
I did have one case in Durham where many of my husband's relatives were baptized in a nearby town and I then found out the local church was being rebuilt during this time.