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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Peter L. Mitchell on Tuesday 01 October 19 12:36 BST (UK)
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Septimus is my great-grandfather. This is the information I have so far:
Born in Westoe, Durham 1857/8. I am confident that Septimus is the same person as Arthur Septimus Thompson mentioned in some resources.
1861 census (taken in South Shields) shows: father William Thomas Thompson, mother Margaret, siblings M.A. Thompson (aged 14), Jane (aged 13), F.H. Thompson (aged 11) Edward (aged 4), Matthew (aged 4), Septimus (aged 1).
1871 census (taken in South Shields) shows: Margaret Thompson (aged 55, retired farmer), Robert (aged 27, a timber merchant's clerk), Foster Hewison (aged 21, an engine fitter at Works), Edward (aged 19, a pupil teacher), Matthew (aged 14, a clerk at Chemical Works), Septimus (aged 11, scholar).
1881 census (taken in South Shields) shows: Margaret Thompson (aged 64), Edward (aged 29, labourer at Glass Works), Septimus (aged 21, butcher), Isabella (daughter-in-law, aged 26), Robert (grandson, aged 5), John (grandson, aged 3)' William (grandson, aged 1).
1883 South Shields register records Septimus as a butcher (address 40 Dale Street).
I have a suspicion that Septimus migrated to Melbourne, Australia, arriving from London on the Clyde in May 1887. Needs further research.
Marriage certificate: 16 January 1889 Married Rosa Marie Grimsley in Melbourne, Australia. Marriage at Church of England, Moor Street, Fitzroy. Daughter Hilda Margaret Thompson born later that year.
21 June 1897 Septimus's cause of death on certificate listed as phthisis (tuberculosis).
Circa 1902 Rosa remarried Wilfred/William/Willie Wraith and has two children - William and Florence.
Puzzle: The marriage and death certificates record that Septimus was a butcher, and all of the background details match. Death certificate shows he was single and aged 40 when he died. The marriage certificate gives his age as 27, which should have made him 35 at time of death. I've searched the divorce records for the time and there is no record of Septimus and Rosa divorcing. The best guess I can come up with is that they separated some time before he died and he regarded himself as single.
If anyone has any information about Septimus's immigration to Australia or any other family details I'd really appreciate it.
Peter
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Septimus is my great-grandfather. This is the information I have so far:
Born in Westoe, Durham 1857/8. I am confident that Septimus is the same person as Arthur Septimus Thompson mentioned in some resources.
ARTHUR SEPTIMUS THOMPSON mmn SNOWDON
1858 Dec Quarter in SOUTH SHIELDS UNION Volume 10A Page 443
He is with parents Joseph Logan Thompson and Alice (nee Snowdon) in 1861
RG09 /3787 f65 p20
...
SEPTIMUS THOMPSON mmn LISTER
1859 Dec Quarter in SOUTH SHIELDS UNION Volume 10A Page 450
He is with parents William Thomas & M.H in 1861
RG09/3787 f72 p33
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Wow! Thank you for clearing that up!
Peter
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If you use the GRO index it gives mothers maiden surnames for these early births. It was possible to double check as the census you quote have another child with unusual first names who is also listed with mmn Lister
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
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1881 census
Edward Thompson 29 is the son who is married
Isabella 26 is his wife
Septimus 21 shows as unmarried
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His baptism record (from the Bishop's Transcripts) is here:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-XC6W-R4?i=520&cc=1309819&cat=1810087
and, as a bonus, this register included birth dates as well as baptism dates :-)
Boo
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More great information!
I have recently discovered the GRO site and have used it to track down other relatives. Thanks for the reminder and the link.
The 1881 census is very helpful. I'd figured that Edward was married to Isabella because of their ages and the ages of the children. Not sure when and how William Thompson died.
Thanks for the Bishop's transcripts. I've struggled through some of those but need to persist.
I really appreciate this help. Thank you!
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I have found that its better to look for BTs for a particular parish via the catalogue.
The 'browse' listing here:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/image/index?owc=9K5M-GP8%3A13618101%3Fcc%3D1309819
appears not to include this year.
But if I look via the catalogue for South Shields , church records, St Hilda I can see this:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/1810087?availability=Family%20History%20Library
which does include the relevant year - though even then the film starts off with some from Holy Trinity - but I persevered and randomly clicked on thumbnails till I got into the right area for St Hilda :-)
Boo
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Great suggestion. Thank you!
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Shields Daily Gazette 08 April 1881
page 2, col 1
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Wow! Wonderful! Thank you!
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A puzzle if anyone can help. Below is a screenshot of the 1881 Census which records Septimus as being 21. In the column to the left is a word I can't work out. You will see above that is Edward's record and that column lists him as married. Can anyone help me to work out what the word is for Septimus's column, and what it means? It looks like "canon'd", but I'm not sure.
Thanks. Peter
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unmd - Unmarried
Boo
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Of course! Thanks!
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Marriage certificate as follows:
Date: 16 January, 1889.
Place: Moor Street, Fitzroy, Melbourne.
Groom: Septimus Thompson of South Melbourne, Butcher (born Newcastle, England).
Bride: Rosa Maria Grimsley of South Melbourne, Servant (born Harrietville, Victoria).
Minister: Nathaniel Kinsman.
Birth certificate of daughter, Hilda Margaret Thompson as follows:
Date: 19 September, 1889.
Place: 192 Cecil Street, South Melbourne.
Name: Hilda Margaret.
Father: Septimus Thompson, butcher (aged 30 years; from South Shields, Eng.).
When and where married: 16 January. 1889, Fitzroy, Victoria (no previous issue).
Mother: Rosa Marie Thompson formerly Grimsley, aged 24; from Harrietville, Vic.).
Septimus's death certificate as follows:
Date: 21 June, 1897.
Place: Hospital, Gipps Road (now street), East Melbourne.
Name: Septimus Thompson, Butcher.
Age: 40 years.
Cause: Phthisis (tuberculosis), Exhaustion; Duration of illness unknown.
Father and mother: Unknown.
Burial: 23 June, 1897 in Melbourne Cemetery.
Where born: England.
Time in Victoria: Unknown.
If deceased was married: Single.
Puzzle: Why would Septimus have his marital status recorded as single on his death certificate? I have searched divorce records for the time and found nothing. I know Rosa re-married a few years later. The best explanation I can come up with is that they separated before his death.
The questions are probably unanswerable, but if anyone can shed any light on this I would love to hear from you.
Peter
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Unassisted Passenger List PROV
"Clyde" arr. May 1887
THOMPSON Mr 45 years page3
THOMPSON Mrs 40 years page 3
THOMPSON Miss 23 years page 3
THOMPSON Mr A 28 years page 1
There should be more information on the marriage document 1889. Can you list all the information please.
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They had probably separated before he died, and had little information about his previous life, so assumed single, or he had said no family and no one came forward to acknowledge him.
Age 40 sounds like a rough guess as to age, did not know how long he had been ill etc etc
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Yes, I agree. Rather sad, really. What has struck me with all this research is the prevalence of tuberculosis as a cause of death between 1885 and 1910. Must have been a rather dangerous time to live.
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Marriage certificate details in full:
Number: 5674
Date: 16 January 1889.
Place: Moor Street, Fitzroy, Melbourne.
Groom: Septimus Thompson (bachelor) of South Melbourne, (born Newcastle, England).
Occupation: Butcher.
Age: 27 years.
Present Address: Roy Street, South Melbourne.
Usual Address: Roy Street, South Melbourne.
Parents: William Thompson (farmer), Margaret Thompson nee Esther (unclear).
Bride: Rosa Maria Grimsley (spinster) of South Melbourne. (born Harrietville, Victoria).
Occupation: Servant.
Age: 24 years.
Present Address: Roy Street, South Melbourne.
Usual Address: Roy Street, South Melbourne.
Parents: William Grimsley (Parson), Jane Elizabeth Grimsley nee Harris
Minister: Nathaniel Kinsman (Church of England).
No information regarding time spent in the colony.
I will post a screenshot of the unclear part of the document separately if possible as an attachment.
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Screenshot as indicated in previous post.
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Correction to marriage certificate details (cross-checked with GRO records):
Parents: William Thompson (farmer), Margaret Thompson nee Esther (unclear).
Correct information:
Parents: William Thompson (farmer), Margaret Thompson nee Lister.
Peter
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Additional.
Attached is a screenshot of Septimus's death certificate. I know that Septimus and Rosa were married on 16 January 1889 and had two children, John and Hilda. The death certificate is troubling to me because of the complete absence of information about his parents, that the length of his illness was recorded as "not known" and also that he is recorded as being single. I can understand some information being omitted due to recording errors, but this seems to me to have been some sort of deliberate attempt to be anonymous. I think Chempat's thoughts (see earlier comments) are probably closest to the truth. Very sad, really.
I have ordered a copy of Septimus's birth certificate through the GRO and will post details as soon as I receive it (hopefully by the middle of next week).
Peter
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There is a likely marriage for his parents in 1842, St Hilda, South Shields
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNJB-GPK
(FS not yet digitised this film so even at an FHC they aren't viewable yet)
GRO Marriages 1842 Q1 1842 S Shields 24 137
a copy of the parish register entry (same as a GRO cert but not on posh paper AND you get original signatures) is a cheaper option than a GRO marriage cert. Durham Record Office, Tyne and Wear Archives will both supply either prints by post or digital images by email. Am unsure if the South Tyneside Local History Centre offer a similar service to supply remotely but all three have microfilms and you can view/print if you can visit.
Boo
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Hi folks.
Courtesy of Port Phillip (Melbourne) Library I've just come across some interesting information about a Septimus Thompson who is not our man. His details are as follows:
Source: Find My Past copy of Armidale (New South Wales) Prison record.
Number (of convict): 29.
Date portrait taken: 17th March 1896.
Name: Septimus Thompson.
Year of Birth: 1870.
Trade: Shoemaker.
Religion: C of E.
Education: R & W (any ideas here?).
Height: 5 feet 7 inches (170.18cm).
Weight: 111 pounds (50.3488 Kg).
Hair colour: Black.
Eye colour: Grey.
Marks or special features: High mouth and chin medium.
Conviction details: Inverell Quarter Sessions February 5 1896.
Offence: Stealing from a dwelling.
Sentence: 2 years hard labour.
Screenshot of photo (hopefully) attached.
This might solve a problem for someone out there. If I find out any more I will post information.
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Additional to last post: Thompson lived in Seymour, Victoria before conviction.
I've just run a search of Birth Deaths and Marriages Victoria but not found him. The GRO records four Septimus Thompsons as follows:
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
THOMPSON, SEPTIMUS PALLISTER
GRO Reference: 1869 M Quarter in DURHAM Volume 10A Page 310
THOMPSON, SEPTIMUS AULD
GRO Reference: 1872 J Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 894
THOMPSON, SEPTIMUS THOMPSON
GRO Reference: 1872 S Quarter in PONTEFRACT Volume 09C Page 77
THOMPSON, SEPTIMUS CONSTANTINE HENDERSON
GRO Reference: 1870 J Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 123
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I was going to ask if it definitely says R & W, but I have found this after a google search
From Ancestry, Bound Indentures 1827-1828
No: 43 Name: Williams John 42/694 Age: 15
Education: r&w Religion: Protest ....
I will keep on looking.
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Definitely R & W.
I've done a search for him in birth records in Victoria, New South Wales, Queensland, Tasmania, and South Australia around 1870 (5 years either side) and found nothing.
Just located a death record for a Septimus Thompson in New South Wales as follows:
Name: Thompson, Septimus
Registration number: 28045/1961
Father's given name: William
Mother's given name: Winifred
District: Hamilton
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Something as simple as Reading and Writing?
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Of course! How obvious! Thank you!
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Further to Septimus Thompson who died at Melbourne in 1897. His former wife Rosa Maria Grimsley states on her marriage certificate to Bill Wraith in 1902, that she has not heard of her former husband, Septimus Thompson for 12 years. This would mean that she was deserted by Septimus not long after the birth of daughter Hilda Margaret. Rosa clearly did not know that by this time she was a widow anyway! According to her 1902 marriage certificate she had one child to her previous partner. As to the vagueness of Septimus's death certificate, this is typical of Hospital death registers of that time.
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Marriage certificate details in full:
Number: 5674
Date: 16 January 1889.
Place: Moor Street, Fitzroy, Melbourne.
Groom: Septimus Thompson (bachelor) of South Melbourne, (born Newcastle, England).
Occupation: Butcher.
Age: 27 years.
Present Address: Roy Street, South Melbourne.
Usual Address: Roy Street, South Melbourne.
Parents: William Thompson (farmer), Margaret Thompson nee Esther (unclear).
Bride: Rosa Maria Grimsley (spinster) of South Melbourne. (born Harrietville, Victoria).
Occupation: Servant.
Age: 24 years.
Present Address: Roy Street, South Melbourne.
Usual Address: Roy Street, South Melbourne.
Parents: William Grimsley (Parson), Jane Elizabeth Grimsley nee Harris
Minister: Nathaniel Kinsman (Church of England).
No information regarding time spent in the colony.
I will post a screenshot of the unclear part of the document separately if possible as an attachment.
Looking at the actual marriage certificate the occupation of William Grimsley is 'Mason' not 'Parson'.
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Of course! How could I have missed that? Thank you for pointing it out! Much appreciated.
Peter
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Hi again shanreagh.
Another interesting part of this is that Rosa's death certificate records William's occupation as "Hotelkeeper". He evidently changed his occupation as some point after Rosa married. More discoveries ahead! Thanks again for pointing it out.
Peter
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William Grimsley was indeed a mason, he completed the foundation stonework for the Anglican Church at Harrietville, Victoria. The church still stands today. The Grimsley's raised a large family of eight children, with one girl dying as an infant. The family arrived in Harrietville late in 1859, this was during the Gold Rush and Harrietville had many working Quartz and Alluvial mines at this time. Find attached photo of the five surviving Grimsley girls.
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Update:
Septimus arrived in Australia on 2 February1886. He had stowed away on Lavinia from Mauritius to Albany, Western Australia. When discovered, the captain allowed him to work his passage. Septimus was arrested on arrival but not charged. The magistrate at a subsequent court hearing criticised the captain for not keeping Thompson locked up for the journey and for not handing him over to the authorities upon arrival. How and why he got to Mauritius is unclear.
Thompson next turns up in Melbourne in 1889 when he married Rosa Marie Grimsley on 16 January 1889. By the end of that year he had deserted Rosa and their baby, Hilda. I have no information regarding Septimus's movements up to his death on 21 June 1887. He was buried at Melbourne General Cemetery on 23 June.
Rosa subsequently married William Henry Wraith (a widow) in 1902. She had to sign a declaration stating that she hadn't seen Septimus for 12 years before the wedding went ahead.
If I find out any more I will post it.
Peter