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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Jill short on Saturday 28 September 19 21:24 BST (UK)
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Hi there,
I've been trying to trace more about my Grandad for ages now. I am also using Ancestry. The info I have is he was born in Huddersfield 25/10/1908 as Clarence Arthur Bamford ( occasionally miss spelt on documents as Balmforth/ Bamforth etc.. ) He took his adoptive parent's name Price around age 2.
His birth cert only says mum name lily bamford.he was then adopted aged around 2 years by Lucy and George Price and lived in Midland Road, Royston, West Yorkshire, according to the 1911 census. I think lily's husband had possibly died and she was sent to workhouse ( LOCKWOOD UNION WORKHOUSE HUDDERSFIELD ) He was then sent to a Children's home on Midland Rd, Royston,which is where his name Bamford came about ,which was possible miss-spelt, and is actually Bamforth according to war records. I also have information that he was possibly living with John and Bertha Bamford in Luck Lane, Marsh, Huddersfield and have his baptism certificate with them being named as parent's. I realise names very commonly get miss spelt along the years ! Also informal adoptions may have occurred. Any info at all on how to search further would be gratefully appreciated !
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Welcome :)
Any adoption at that time would have been informal - statutory adoption didn’t come in until 1927.
Have you traced Lily Bamford - was she/her husband related to John and Bertha?
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Birth registered Dec qtr 1908 as Clarence Bamford with mother’s maiden name Bromwich.
Baptism 21.11.1908 as Clarence son of John & Bertha, at the Methodist New Connexion Chapel.
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Wright Bamford married Bertha Bromwich, Sep qtr 1902 Huddersfield.
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does it state Mrs for his mother father deceased even
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Wright Bamford died Mar qtr 1907 Huddersfield so was not Clarence’s father.
I suspect he was born to Bertha and another man (named, perhaps, John) after her husband’s death, and she invented the name “Lily” to avoid embarrassment when he was born.
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have you enquired about his admission records to the workhouse
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Wright and Bertha had 3 children together:
Doris Bamford, mother’s maiden name Bromwich, Dec qtr 1902 Huddersfield
Hilda Bamford, mother’s maiden name Bromwich, Mar qtr 1904 Huddersfield
Mabel Bamford, mother’s maiden name Bromwich, Mar qtr 1906 Huddersfield
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Welcome to Rootschat Jill :)
Interesting - On the 1911 Bertha only claims 3 born 3 still living which will be the three girls.
She either didn't want to acknowledge that she had had a fourth child or thought that as he had been adopted the number of children born didn't apply to him.
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The 1939 question relates to children born to the marriage.
Of course it wasn’t meant to be answered by widows at all, but luckily for us many didn’t read the instructions all that carefully!
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https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NTHR-D6V
- according to Hilda's baptism she was Bertha Eliza
Wright's father was a John, as was Bertha's, so perhaps "John" was just taken from one of Clarence's grandfathers?
I think Bertha went on to marry Harry Jackson in Bramley district in early 1914, and had a son later that same year, Norman (mother's maiden name "Bromwick"), who sadly died as an infant.
Any indication of the occupation of "John" on the baptism?
Was he born at Lockwood? Was that also the address of the informant (possibly Lily) on the birth certificate? She may have only been at the workhouse to give birth, not being able to afford medical assistance otherwise.
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Unfortunately the nonconformist baptism register doesn’t show any occupation for Clarence’s supposed father “John” (it’s not part of the format - not stated for any father).
46 Luck Lane, Marsh is the recorded address for the family at the time of the baptism.
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If I have the correct family Bertha has an older brother called John as well as her father, so that might be where the name came from
1891 census
Registration district Pontefract
Archive reference RG12
Piece number 3763
Folio 36
Page 28
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Hi, I’m so grateful for all your replies and taking the time to research. My cousin has told me she has a birth certificate which she got from Huddersfield birth records stating that Clarence’s mother on the certificate says Lily Balmforth , no name of father so perhaps he was born out of wedlock ? I am unsure of how to access admissions to Lockwood union workhouse where it has been claimed he was born any info ? I shall ask my cousin for a copy of the certificate . My other theory was that “Lily” was the sister of John Bamford . The different spellings of the surname doesn’t help either ! I never heard my family talk of any siblings of Grandad. I was 5 when he died. He received the Croix de Guerre ( WW2 )from Charles de Gaulle of which I have a photo. I have a little more info to piece together now from you, thanks very much.
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I wonder if this is of interest at all:-
Baptism of Lily Balmforth on 5 September 1886, born on 22 March 1886. Place is St.Michael Church, Emley. Parents are Elizabeth and William and he is a stone mason.
Record set is Huddersfield Baptisms.
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She is on the 1891 census with her parents and also has a brother called John.
Registration district Wakefield
Archive reference RG12
Piece number 3742
Folio 22
Page 13
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Hi Jill...This may not be of any interest to you but I have a beautiful photo of a young lady named Ivy Balmforth b. Hull 1889 who was a May Queen in Hull in 1913.
Carol
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Clarence’s birth is indexed as Bamforth (rather than Balmforth), with mother’s maiden name Bromwich as previously mentioned.
I wonder whether the certificate had been misread. Are you able to get a copy or scan from your cousin?
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Hi everyone..
I'm a relative of Jill, Clarence Bamford was my great grandad
I've been researching myself on behalf of my Grandad (clarence son) as he doesnt know anything about his fathers life.
I went and got the birth cert from hudds. I will attach a pic.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thankyou
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It womt let me upload the file is too big.
Or I'm just rubbish with tech stuff ha.
The cert says. Name Clarence (no surname)
Mothers name: Lily Bamford, formerly Bromwich
Born 46 luck lane marsh hudds.
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Welcome to Rootschat Katea
Lily isn't at Luck Lane in the 1911 census, a family called Ackroyd are living there then.
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Hi, and thankyou.
Is there records of her and bertha and john all living there together at one point?
I wonder what happened to her?
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There seems to be quite a bit of confusion about Lily. Have you read the whole of this topic? If not I suggest you read it.
There was a suggestion that Lily is actually Bertha.
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Yes I did...but i previously had records of lily living with a couple at that adress so thought she was a real person?
John was on his baptism cert as his father, yet john aparantly died before he was born?
It's all so confusing haha.
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What records do you have of Lily other than the birth certificate?
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We had someone help us a few years back with the search and found lily bamford at luck lane living with a couple with a baby.
How could I see who was the adress in 1901?
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In 1901, 46 Luck Lane was occupied by a James Robinson, 46 b Huddersfield, and his family.
RG13/4106/47/32.
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So on what record(s) did this person find Lily with the couple who had a baby with them? And when was this?
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I cant remember to be honest...my mum just told me.
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One way could have been through electoral rolls but you would need to know an address for those. Have you thought about contacting the relevant council and asking for an electoral roll check for 46 Luck Lane at the time Clarence was born and maybe for a few years after that?
You may have to pay for the look up, places vary as to whether they charge or not.
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Perhaps someone saw the birth certificate with “Lily” living at 46 Luck Lane and the baptism with “John & Bertha” living at 46 Luck Lane, and inferred understandably that Lily was a separate person lodging with the couple & her baby. But the giveaway for me is the “Bamford formerly Bromwich” which fits only Bertha. And the fact that Bertha’s husband was deceased provides a reason for her being creative with the facts.
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Yes the formerly bromwich definitely is a give away....I agree.
on birth cert it says adress as luck lane and charwoman, under "namea" just clarence, no surname(is that common of what was done?)
He was known as Clarence Arthur Bamford Price, and later in life only used clarence Arthur Price.
His baptism was before his birth was registered and john and bertha were as parents, yet john had died. Did the church just take the word?I guess both parents didnt need to be present....
And then obvs the father part was left blank on birth cert.
I didnt realise you could do that with the electoral roll. I'll see if I can look into it.
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“Name” is just the given name(s) - that’s correct for a registration at that time.
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Hi everyone.
I seem to have hit a bump in the road.
We found a postcard of my great grandad sent 1930 to Margaret Preistley saying" with love from your big brother Clarence"
Now he was adopted, so we had no knowledge of any siblings etc....
So nice been digging today and found a few things...but am a bit stuck.
Can anyone help?
My great grandfather Clarence Bamford was adopted by Lucy( maid2n name Railton) and George Price in Royston Barnsley around 1910.
Lucy Price seemed to have remarried around 1915 to a man surname Priestley(first name unknown) we have no knowledge of what happened to George Price (on clarence marriage cert around 1930ish it says he is deceased)
Lucy then lived at at 2 Earnshaw Place, Balne lane Wakefield on the 1939 census with what seems to be her daughter Margaret Priestley, Lucy is listed as widowed.
Was Lucy Priestley , Lucy Price his adoptive mother?
Was Margaret Priestley her daughter? And who was the father?
Who lived at 2 earnshaw place?
What happened to George Price?
If anyone can help me it would be greatly appreciated.
Thankyou
Kate
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Is this Clarence’s birth reg - you haven’t given any details of his birth year
There were no formal adoption proceedings until 1927 so any “adoption” would be informal
Clarence Bamford Dec qtr 1908 Huddersfield 9a 284. Mmn was Bromwich
Or is he this one
Clarence Bamford Dec 1901 Sheffield. 9c 682 - illegitimate - no mmn shown
Buying a copy of his birth cert will give his mothers name. Have a look at the 1911 census entry for the one b 1901
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7TT-VQB
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Lucy's second marriage from free bmd
Marriages December quarter 1915
Lucy Price Priestley Barnsley 9c 555
Arthur Priestley Price Barnsley 9c 555
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Quick guess : George died in WW1 - what age was he at marriage?
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Hes the 1908 birth, mothers maiden name Bromwich.
We have been looking at his birth mother and have been stumped....
So now looking at his adoptive mothers life, and if and where he lived with her and anyone else .
Thankyou foentour replies x
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In 1908 he was 44 at marriage
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If he is the 1908 birth it is simple to find his parents
From freebmd marriages
Wright Bamford to Bertha Bromwich Sept qtr 1902 Huddersfield 9a 736
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Deaths Wright Bramhall Bamford aged 33 March qtr 1907 Huddersfield 9a 249
If that is the correct death - he cannot be Clarence’s father
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Is he the George Price living in Midland Road on the ER's 1911 -1915?
If so, there is a Charles Price also in Midland Road for some of the time. Could be a separate household as no number given.
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Had George been married before, or was he a bachelor at marriage?
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Found marriage - George was a bachelor BUT Lucy was a widow mn NOT Railton - father was George Pullan?
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Lucy Railton, 1873, Yorkshire, is a servant, married, in the Cowling family in 1901, in Leeds.
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England Select Births and Christenings
Lucy Patterson Dacres Pullan
Baptism Date:09/03/1873
Baptism Place: Bilbrough, York, England
Father:George Pullan Mother: Eliza
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Speculation.
If Wright Bamford died 1907 and Clarence was only born Dec qtr 1908 he was illegitimate.
The Price/Railton marriage was 1908 - was George Price perhaps his biological father??
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Lucy Patterson Dacre Pullan
Marriage Age: 21
Married 26th December 1891 at Bradford, St Peter (Bradford Cathedral), Yorkshire, England
Father: George Pullan Spouse: Booth Rhodes
Added: George was a groom, and witness was Eliza Pullan. Lucy and Eliza both signed.
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I am confused:
Deaths September quarter 1911
Booth Rhodes age 55 Bradford
Added: Booth says he is single in 1901.
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Yes he was on Midland road, we only have records of him being there at age 2 saying adopted..we dont know anything other than that. What other ER records can you see?
Can you see where clarence went? He is under clarence bamford price on some records, as well as clarence price, and clarence A price.
Yes, wright bamford cannot be his father, on his birth cert his mother is down as Lily Bamford, formerly bromwich....this is where we are stuck and believe Lily cannot have been a real person as there are no records whatsoever of her birth/marriage/ death etc.
Very complicated ancestry this one haha.
Thanks again everyone for your help
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Found marriage - George was a bachelor BUT Lucy was a widow mn NOT Railton - father was George Pullan?
Hmmm...I'm confused.
We have lucy price, george price, clarence bamford price on 1911 census Midland road.
Lucy MN as Railton
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Where does it say Lucy mn Railton?
Ancestry has West Yorkshire, England, Electoral Registers, 1840-1962 showing George Price at Midland Road.
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What is Margaret's age on 1939, and does it give a married name for her?
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Margaret's D.O.B 22-4-20 , so she was 19.
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Where does it say Lucy mn Railton?
Ancestry has West Yorkshire, England, Electoral Registers, 1840-1962 showing George Price at Midland Road.
Apologies....it doesnt say MN it says shes a widow. I missed that! Thanks x
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This death?
Margaret Putt Birth Date: 22nd April 1920
Registration of death : March quarter 1987 at Leeds
but cannot see likely birth as should be in April/May/June quarter 1920 in Yorkshire (probably)
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Confused
If Lucy was born Pullan and married Rhodes - how did Lucy Railton marry George Price? No Rhodes/Railton marriage given Booth only died after the 1911 census and Lucy Railton married George Price in 1908
I think it would be best if we first concentrated on finding Clarence’s mother Bertha. We have all encountered posts where a child has been “adopted” without there being any connection to the adoptive family.
Am I right in thinking you have his birth cert confirming his mother as Bertha but no father shown??
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Margaret Putt had probate in 1987 - might be worth ordering.
I think Lucy might have lied and/or committed bigamy.
The marriage information is that Lucy Railton (widow) married George Price and that her father was George Pullan. Just trying to work out how.
But will now try Bertha.
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Confused
If Lucy was born Pullan and married Rhodes - how did Lucy Railton marry George Price? No Rhodes/Railton marriage given Booth only died after the 1911 census
I think it would be best if we first concentrated on finding Clarence’s mother Bertha. We have all encountered posts where a child has been “adopted” without there being any connection to the adoptive family.
Am I right in thinking you have his birth cert confirming his mother as Bertha but no father shown??
His birth cert has lily bamford as mother, maiden name Bromwich.
No father.
Like I said weve got so far with this as theres no records whatsoever of Lily, so it was believed Bertha used Lily as a false name on b.c because he was an illegitimate baby x
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Take a look at the 1911 entry for Bertha Bamford b 1885
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWJT-729
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Can I just throw this in:
Wright Bamforth age 24 married on 24 March 1900 at Slaithwaite with East Scammonden, St James, Yorkshire
Father: Allen Bamforth
Spouse: Lucy Annie Price
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He was Clarence Bamford not Bamforth b 1908 mmn Bromwich
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Yes, just doing fuzzy matching, but spellings had hardened by then. Just seeing the Price made me have a little explore.
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When did Clarence die as I can’t see a death with a 1908 birthyear under Bamford but there is a Clarence A Price b 1909 died 1966 Wakefield
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Take a look at the 1911 entry for Bertha Bamford b 1885
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWJT-729
3 daughters with her husband Wright (john) then he died and clarence was born after and put for adoption and with the prices by 1911
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This death
1907 Wright Mayhall Bamford age 33, not Bramhall?
Added:
Marshall on Parish register
Clarence took the surname Price, surely?
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When did Clarence die as I can’t see a death with a 1908 birthyear under Bamford but there is a Clarence A Price b 1909 died 1966 Wakefield
Yes that's him..
Later in life he seemed to drop the bamford.
He died 1966
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He died as Clarence A - nothing on his birth reg to indicate a middle name
Did he marry Florence Broadbent in 1934
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This death
1907 Wright Mayhall Bamford age 33, not Bramhall?
Added:
Marshall on Parish register
Clarence took the surname Price, surely?
Yes he was bamford price when adopted, then used c b price, and worked at royal mail as a postman and clarence aurthur bamford price,
nickname was Caby C.A.B ..... hes still called grandad caby now to me, his son( my grandad ) Is grandad caby to my children too😊
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He died as Clarence A - nothing on his birth reg to indicate a middle name
Did he marry Florence Broadbent in 1934
Yes,that's him.
No Idea where the Arthur came from....he may of just adopted it himself
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1901
Registration district: Pontefract Sub-registration district: Castleford
John Bromwich 44
Mary Ellen Bromwich 63
John Bromwich 18
Bertha Eliza Bromwich 16 Methley
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Bertha Eliza Bromwich
Born 26 Sep 1884
Baptised 29 Nov 1884 at Methley, St Oswald, Yorkshire, England
Father: John Bromwich Mother: Sarah Bromwich
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West Yorkshire, Non-Conformist Records, 1646-1985
Clarence Bamford Birth Date: 25th (Ancestry says 14th) Oct 1908
Baptism Father: John Bamford Mother: Bertha Bamford
Baptism Date: 21 Nov 1908
Archive Location: Kirklees Parish or Chapel: April
Living at 46 Luck Lane, Marsh (I think).
Well, the rest were baptised etc, so she did do him also.
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topics merged
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Katea - were you aware of the other post?
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West Yorkshire, Non-Conformist Records, 1646-1985
Clarence Bamford Birth Date: 25th (Ancestry says 14th) Oct 1908
Baptism Father: John Bamford Mother: Bertha Bamford
Baptism Date: 21 Nov 1908
Archive Location: Kirklees Parish or Chapel: April
Living at 46 Luck Lane, Marsh (I think).
Well, the rest were baptised etc, so she did do him also.
Yes his birth was registered after his baptism, and with lily bamford as mother.
Also John was Wright Bamfords fathers name and her brothers name...we dont know where the name John Bamford came from, or Lily.
We think they were all fiction, again as clarence was illegitimate,so as to save face on Berthas part.
Dont think well ever know who is father was tbh.
Just wanted to be sure that Bertha was his biological mother and not Lily(who may be fictional)
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Katea - were you aware of the other post?
Yes...I was in that haha.
That's why I was saying we hit a dead end.... and was looking at his adoptive parents and his life the "price" family.
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Duplicate posts just waste everybody's time and efforts and cause a great deal of frustration to people who are unaware of the other post so end up duplicating info
I have asked the moderator to merge the 2 posts to save further duplication
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Duplicate posts just waste everybody's time and efforts and cause a great deal of frustration to people who are unaware of the other post so end up duplicating info
I have asked the moderator to merge the 2 posts to save further duplication
I did say we'd hit a dead end and i was trying to look at different side of the family. everyones posts were coming through so fast I didnt want to be rude like "yes I already knew" as new to this.😬 Apologies.
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You did not say that the dead end was through rootschat.
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Oh dear - how frustrating.
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Once they merge it will be clearer what's known and people can just concentrate on the adoptive side of family which is the route you're now following.
I've duplicated posts that I've forgot about.its why there's a beginners board.
Hope someone can find what you're looking for.
Lee
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On Lucy Railton's marriage her deceased Father was George Pullan, gardener.
1871 census
Living in Tadcaster
George Pullan 43 gardener and domestic servant born Collingham Bilbrough
Eliza Pullan 33 Keswick Cumbria
Phillis Pullan 12
Mary E Pullan 10
Annette Pullan 8
Charles G Pullan 6
Tom N Pullan 4
Minnie Pullan 2
Eliza H Pullan 1
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Living in Wakefield in 1881
George Pullan 52 Collingham Domestic servant
Eliza Pullan 43 Keswick
Hannah Pullan 11
Lucy Pullan 8 Bilbrough
William Pullan 5
Rose Pullan 4
Susan Pullan 0
However, he is still alive in 1911.
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Living in Tadcaster in 1891, he is a gardener again, but no Lucy:
George Pullan 63 married
William I Pullan 16
Rose Ada Pullan 14
Susan W Pullan 10
Added:
He is widowed by 1901, Living in Chapel Allerton, Leeds
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Once they merge it will be clearer what's known and people can just concentrate on the adoptive side of family which is the route you're now following.
I've duplicated posts that I've forgot about.its why there's a beginners board.
Hope someone can find what you're looking for.
Lee
Thankyou Lee, appreciate your support.x[
quote author=chempat link=topic=819557.msg6817348#msg6817348 date=1570088806]
Living in Tadcaster in 1891, he is a gardener again, but no Lucy:
George Pullan 63 married
William I Pullan 16
Rose Ada Pullan 14
Susan W Pullan 10
Added:
He is widowed by 1901, Living in Chapel Allerton, Leeds
[/quote]
Thanks for this, I need to find out if this lucy is the same lucy priestley living with margaret priestly at balne lane wakefield?
Also trying to trace Lucy's whereabouts with clarence bamford price after leaving royston.
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Does her (Lucy) age in 1939 (if you believe it to be accurate) agree with her baptism or birth certificate?
Have we asked what information there is on her death certificate, and if you have not got these, are you going to get them?
'Also trying to trace Lucy's whereabouts with clarence bamford price after leaving royston.'
What did he say about his whereabouts to either you or your parents/aunts/uncles?
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Found baptisms (not births) for his older children, born in Bilbrough
name baptism date church place parents
Phillis Pullan 19 Dec 1858 Collingham, St Oswald George, Eliza
Charles Gill Pullan 27 Mar 1864 Collingham, St Oswald George, Eliza
Sarah Ann Pullan 12 Apr 1857 Collingham, St Oswald George, Eliza
Annett Pullan 2 Mar 1862 Collingham, St Oswald George, Eliza
Mary Elizabeth Pullan 17 Jun 1860 Collingham, St Oswald George, Eliza
Minnie Pullan 24 May 1868 Collingham, St Oswald George, Eliza
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One of you has put:
'Lucy then lived at at 2 Earnshaw Place, Balne lane Wakefield on the 1939 census with what seems to be her daughter Margaret Priestley, Lucy is listed as widowed.
Was Lucy Priestley , Lucy Price his adoptive mother?'
The marriage certificate of Clarence to Theresa in 1934 (West Yorkshire Marriages) gives his address as 2 Earnshaw Place Balne Lane.
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Once they merge it will be clearer what's known and people can just concentrate on the adoptive side of family which is the route you're now following.
I've duplicated posts that I've forgot about.its why there's a beginners board.
Hope someone can find what you're looking for.
Lee
I wish I could agree with you, but I find 2 merged posts very difficult to negotiate, and start re-checking things that I posted myself.
Cannot find Lucy Pullan and/or her mother in 1891.
How about:
Lucy Pullan marries Booth Rhodes, who has been recently widowed.
Marriage not successful, they split.
She takes up with Mr Railton, and uses that name, even when no longer living with him (1901 census).
Marries Mr Price, naming George Pullan as her Father.
etc etc.
Problem is, I have compared Lucy Pullan's signature and Lucy Railton's signature, and I do not think they are the same.
If someone could post them on here, it would be useful, my computer is not set up to do so without using an intermediary computer.
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The signatures are different names, so they will be different wont they?
Clarence was believed to be a "lodger" at 2 earnshaw place when he came home from the military as he enrolled around the age of 17 my grandad(his son belives) my grandad was always told he lodged with a couple at earnshaw place.
So to potentially see that it was actually his adoptive mother (lucy price, formerly railton, mn pullan) and her daughter Margaret is great news!
We have a postcard from clarence whilst serving in the forces to margaret at earnshaw place saying" with love, tpur big brother clarence"
So we were always puzzled.
But this...
May answer the question... it was his mother and his step sister!
Can you see any records for Margaret priestley? I think she may have been adopted too as cabt find a birth cert or anything.
Lucy was born 15 jul 1872.
Margaret priestley born 22 April 1920
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I was thinking that Margaret was probably adopted - marriage certificate to see who she claimed for a Father?
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I cant find anything for margaret at all😩
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Margaret's death?
March quarter 1987 in Leeds
Margaret Putt
Death Age: 66 Birth Date: 22nd April 1920
Death certificate for informant to try to work out marriage?
Added:
As I put on page 7, knew I was repeating myself.
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There is a probate record for Margaret Putt died 10 March 1987 address is 4 Pepper Hill, Leeds. Probate in London.
No other names mentioned.
Added: Wonder if it is worth checking electoral rolls for that address to see who was living there.
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Might have to get her death cert then.
Sorry....probate in london? Did she have no children?
I will look up that adress at the archives and see what I can find.
Thankyou x
Can anyone see any military records for clarence? We know he got the croix de geur.
But dont know if there is any sign on papers etc?
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Presumably he joined up in the 1929s or 30s, his army papers will still be with the army. You can obtain them but there is a charge.
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How do you know he got the croix de guerre? Do you have something in writing to tell you that and when was he awarded it?
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Not listed here, so awarded to his unit?
https://www.geni.com/projects/Croix-de-Guerre-Recipients/24526
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How do you know he got the croix de guerre? Do you have something in writing to tell you that and when was he awarded it?
Look back to the very 1st post. ...there is a pic of him receiving it.
My grandad has records and a photo.
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Look back to the very 1st post. ...there is a pic of him receiving it.
Do you mean this one: https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=306364
Carol
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Ok, so when did he receive it? Neither Chempat nor I can find his name on any list of Croix de Guerre recipients.
Was it reported in something like the London Gazette or the local paper where he lived?
Do you have a picture of the medal itself?
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We have the medal and the original record.
He was clarence A price his name when he got it x
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I did the original post of this topic about my Grandad. Kate is my relative researching alongside me . I have the document for Grandad Clarence describing his war medal as thus , from - The National Archives , Kew
Description:
Name Price, Clarence Arthur
Rank: Corporal
Service No: 2317711
Regiment: 158 AAOR Signals Section
Theatre of Combat or Operation: Foreign to British: France
Award: Croix de Guerre with Bronze Star
Date: 1944
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I also have information that he was possibly living with John and Bertha Bamford in Luck Lane, Marsh, Huddersfield and have his baptism certificate with them being named as parent's.
Who was this John Bamford, what was his age?
Was he the father of Wright Bamford?
Or was he the brother of Wright Bamford?
What happened to the three girls, did she manage to keep them or were they adopted out too?
Which John Bamford she was living with is relevant because if it was her father in law they may have been struggling and he just could provide for them all. If it was her brother in law he may have been off to marry his sweetheart and didn't want to continue helping.
John Bamford may have lent his name to Bertha Bamford to have a the fathers name or he might actually be the father.
DNA from decendants of the 3 girls could be useful because matrilineal is supposed to be really strong. If would prove if Lily was Bertha, or Bertha's sister.
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After lots of research people on Here speculated that John, could of just been a name that wright bamford used, as that was his fathers name?
We are going to the west Yorkshire archives tuesday so will search the adress at luck lane on the electoral roll and see who was at the adress and indeed if john, and lily were ",actual people" or just preferred names that were used.
I'm not sure what happened to the 3 daughters..
Cant remember now if anyone back in the chat looked into it.
Thankyou
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Children of Bertha (who died as Jackson):
Doris, 29/09/1902 married Lawrance Brittain and died in Wakefield in 1987.
Hilda, 26/12/1903 married George Gale and probably died in Leeds in 1961 age 57.
Mabel. 11/12/1905 married Ernest Smith and probably died in Leeds in 1960 age 54.
Their children can be looked at from freebmd - (but too many Smiths to try and chase/trace.)
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I realise I have come very late to this thread, but I chanced across it when googling for "Earnshaw Place Balne Lane". The reason was that a person in my husband's tree was stated at his burial in Royston to have his abode at 3 Earnshaw Place.
This man was Arthur PRIESTLEY (1862-1931), and he was buried on 10 Nov 1931 in Royston, aged 69.
Now he must have been the last husband of Lucy PULLAN / RHODES / RAILTON / PRICE / PRIESTLEY. The marriage registration was in December Quarter 1915 in Barnsley District. Lucy used the surname PRICE at the marriage.
Because of this marriage (which I probably would have completely missed had it not been for Google to throw up this thread) I looked into Lucy's life a bit further.
Arthur was married previously and had several children. His son George Arthur PRIESTLEY in 1923 married a woman named Louisa May PALING but he died within 6 months of the marriage. His widow in 1930 married a relative of my husband's. Arthur PRIESTLEY's wife Sarah Jane (nee MARSHALL) died shortly after the 1911 census, leaving him free to marry again.
I can't help with Clarence Bamford PRICE's true parents, but I suspect Clarence took the middle name Arthur because Arthur PRIESTLEY was a good step-adoptive father to him.
Lucy herself, as you know, had quite a history of failed marriages. Her first marriage to Booth RHODES must have faltered quite quickly, as in the 1901 census Lucy, as a married woman using the surname RAILTON, was a housekeeper to a widower called Charles COWLING and his sons in Leeds. Whether there ever was a Mr. RAILTON involved, or whether Lucy decided to go under a different surname so Booth could not find her, I do not know. I certainly could not find a marriage of a Lucy to a Mr. RAILTON. As you know, Booth did not die until 1911 (he actually was in the workhouse in the 1911 census), so Lucy's next marriage was definitely bigamous.
I have some sympathy for Lucy. Booth was more than double her age - they both lied about their ages at the marriage. She claimed to be 21 but was still a couple of weeks short of her 19th birthday, and he claimed to be 28 when in fact he was 39 years old. He also had a minor conviction for fighting in the gutter with a brickmaker in 1882.
Lucy's second husband George PRICE (born 1861), the adoptive father of Clarence, had quite an interesting background. He stated at his marriage to Lucy that his father was George PRICE, Farmer, but this was only partially true. George was born in 1861 the illegitimate son of Jane PRICE (nee WALLETT). Jane had been married (and officially still was married) to a George Liscombe PRICE, an excise officer, son of a solicitor in London. They had lived in Ireland for a while and had a daughter born there, but then George Liscombe PRICE emigrated to America without his wife, and Jane ended up in a small village called Misson at the northern end of Nottinghamshire, close to Doncaster, and produced a string of children there, with of course no father named.
I noticed that in Jane PRICE's last three censuses (1881-1901), she had a "lodger" living with her called George SNOWDEN, an Ag. Lab., who in 1881 and 1891 was stated to be married (with no wife in sight - they clearly also had separated). By 1901 he stated to be widowed. And when I looked at George PRICE's birth registration in 1861, he was registered as George Snowden PRICE, mother's maiden surname blank. One of George PRICE's sisters also had the middle name Snowden. So no prizes for guessing who George Snowden PRICE's real father was! In fact, George SNOWDEN died in Cudworth in the house of one of his illegitimate children, Leonard PRICE, so clearly was a valued member of the family.
I have all these people, including lots more detail, and a bit more about their parents and grandparents, on my family tree on Ancestry. The tree is called "Mitchinson and Lawrence". The easiest way is to find me on the list of Ancestry members - my name (Petra Mitchinson) is worldwide unique - and then click on the tree and do a tree search for Lucy PULLAN.
If anybody has any more information about Arthur PRIESTLEY after his marriage to Lucy, I would be interested to hear about it. I have no access to the 1921 census, so if anyone has that, I would appreciate a look-up!
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Just had a look at the 1921 census on Findmypast - just by searching and hovering the cursor over the details in the results.
Arthur & Lucy PRIESTLEY with Clarence A. PRICE are together in a household in Wakefield, with three other people. One of them is a Margaret ROBINSON, born 1920 in Bradford. Now she must be the Margaret PRIESTLEY in the 1939 Register.
I looked for her birth in the GRO online index. The only Margaret ROBINSON that came up as born in June Quarter 1920 in Bradford was:
June 1920 Margaret ROBINSON, Mother's M.S. -- Bradford 9b 323 Occasional Copy A
Occasional Copy A usually refers to some alteration having been made to the name later on.
When I looked up this reference on FreeBMD, there were two entries for what was clearly the same child:
June 1920 Margaret ROBINSON, Mother's M.S. SYKES Bradford 9b 323
June 1920 Margaret SYKES, Mother's M.S. SYKES Bradford 9b 323
There is no birth registration for a Margaret SYKES in the GRO online index.
So my assumption is that Margaret was the illegitimate daughter of a Mrs. ROBINSON formerly SYKES.
I am not aware of any family connection to SYKES or ROBINSON in either Lucy's or Arthur PRIESTLEY's family.
There is also an E. George GUDGIN, born 1899 in Nottingham, in the household in 1921, as well as an Edith GUDGIN, born 1895 in Retford, Notts.
He was George Edward GUDGIN, born June Quarter 1899 in Nottingham District, Mother's M.S. ARCH.
I could not find Edith's birth as GUDGIN, so I suppose she was George Edward's wife - but I can't find a marriage for them either.
Just thought it may be of interest to someone.
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In 1921 Margaret Robinson has recorded that both parents are alive - though possible that originally stated as a dash and amended.
E George Gudgin is a police constable - as both state they are married then one would think that they would obey the law. :)
Added: Marriage might have been after 1921.....1926 looks likely.
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I looked for her birth in the GRO online index. The only Margaret ROBINSON that came up as born in June Quarter 1920 in Bradford was:
June 1920 Margaret ROBINSON, Mother's M.S. -- Bradford 9b 323 Occasional Copy A
Occasional Copy A usually refers to some alteration having been made to the name later on.
When I looked up this reference on FreeBMD, there were two enries for what was clearly the same child:
June 1920 Margaret ROBINSON, Mother's M.S. SYKES Bradford 9b 323
June 1920 Margaret SYKES, Mother's M.S. SYKES Bradford 9b 323
There is no birth registration for a Margaret SYKES in the GRO online index.
So my assumption is that Margaret was the illegitimate daughter of a Mrs. ROBINSON formerly SYKES.
That is an unusual combination of index entries - working out the entry from indexes is always difficult and means making assumptions (and there can be other options), but the lack of a maiden name on the GRO entry would suggest the mother is probably listed as "Robinson otherwise Sykes".
The Occasional Copy does usually indicate there was a correction of some sort made, so it would be an interesting entry to see.... e.g. I think there is a remote possibility is that the entry had a father shown (named Robinson) who was then removed.
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Oh, it's so nice to get a response - I felt I was talking to myself!
I also looked into Arthur PRIESTLEY's background as well as that of his first wife Sarah Jane MARSHALL, and the family relationships are mindbogglingly complex. Ancestry cannot cope with this when drawing their family tree, and each of them appears three times in the same line!
The lynchpin to all this is a man called John MARSHALL (1841-1921). He was married three times. In 1863 he married his first wife Mary BRIGGS (1840-1885), and they had several children together, one of them a daughter Sarah Jane MARSHALL (1865-1911).
Sarah Jane MARSHALL married in 1865 Arthur PRIESTLEY (1862-1931). Arthur was a son of John PRIESTLEY (1835-1882) and his wife Elizabeth née GIGGALL (1831-1896).
John PRIESTLEY died in 1882, and John MARSHALL's first wife Mary died in 1885. The widowed John MARSHALL then married in 1886 the widow Elizabeth PRIESTLEY née GIGGALL. So Arthur PRIESTLEY was now not only John MARSHALL's son-in-law but also his stepson. Equally, Sarah Jane PRIESTLEY, in addition to being the daughter-in-law of Elizabeth née GIGGALL, had now additionally become Elizabeth's stepdaughter.
Elizabeth MARSHALL formerly PRIESTLEY née GIGGALL died in 1896. Her widower John MARSHALL then married in 1897 as his third wife Frances Louisa TAYLOR née PRICE. She was a widow with several children (two of whom lived in the MARSHALL household in 1901). Frances Louisa was the half-sister of George PRICE, who also lived in John & Frances Louisa MARSHALL's household as a boarder in the 1901 census, and who married Lucy PULLAN/BOOTH/RAILTON in 1908. George and Lucy PRICE then adopted Clarence BAMFORD.
In 1915, Lucy (who may have been widowed, although I have not found a death for George PRICE) married Arthur PRIESTLEY, whose wife Sarah Jane née MARSHALL had died in 1911.
Oh what a tangled web we weave!
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Hi.
Sorry I've only just seen I had a reply to this post.
Wow... my mind is blown! So much more info than we had. I'm so glad you found this post Petra! Thankyou for sharing.
We don't have much info on Margaret... or know much about her...other than believing she was possibly a child that Lucy "took on" after her husband died.
Margaret lived at earnshaw place and my grandad said he they had 2 lodgers living there too.( which were the couple you mention above)
We have a postcard from my grandad Clarence which he sent to Margaret at the above adress while he was serving in the forces signing... with love, your big brother Clarence.
So believe they must have been close.
I remember finding a death cert for Margaret somewhere down south and beleive she had no children. I'm sure I also found a probate record for her too.
Back to clarences birth mother( who we belive to be berth jackson( nee bamford) I found her grave and visited it in Leeds. Buried with her husband Harry Jackson.
If anyone has any more info I would be very grateful.
Kate
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Hi.
We don't have much info on Margaret... or know much about her...other than believing she was possibly a child that Lucy "took on" after her husband died.
Margaret lived at earnshaw place and my grandad said he they had 2 lodgers living there too.( which were the couple you mention above)
We have a postcard from my grandad Clarence which he sent to Margaret at the above adress while he was serving in the forces signing... with love, your big brother Clarence.
So believe they must have been close.
I remember finding a death cert for Margaret somewhere down south and beleive she had no children. I'm sure I also found a probate record for her too.
Kate
It looks as if Margaret joined the household of Arthur and Lucy PRIESTLEY before the 1921 census, so that's quite a while before Arthur died.
It seems that Lucy had no children herself - at least no surviving ones. There are a couple of possibles.
There was the birth of a Francess Mary RHODES (mother's M.S. PULLAN) in March Quarter 1897 in Leeds Registration District, and the birth of a Dorothy RHODES (mother's M.S. PULLAN) in June Quarter 1898 in Holbeck Registration District. It seems both these children died in Hunslet Registration District in 1899 - Dorothy in September Quarter aged 0 (really should have been 1 year old) and Francess Mary in December Quarter 1899 aged 2. No absolute proof that these were children of Booth and Lucy but although there were a couple of possible RHODES / PULLAN marriages in the Leeds area in 1900, I could not see any before these two girls were born. Only a birth or death certificate would prove this.
So Lucy may have found the lack of children of her own very hard, and therefore adopted Clarence and later Margaret?
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birth of a Dorothy RHODES (mother's M.S. PULLAN) in June Quarter 1898 in Holbeck Registration District. It seems both these children died in Hunslet Registration District in 1899 - Dorothy in September Quarter aged 0 (really should have been 1 year old)
Theoretically Dorothy could have been born on June 30th 1898 and registered the same day, so falling in the June registration quarter.
She could then have died on June 27th 1899, age still 0, and registered on July 2nd 1899, so falling in the September quarter.
I know that is a little pedantic, but I have been doing analysis when I know that I may be a year out but accept limitations, and if they claim 0 I am not going to argue.