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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: Les de B on Saturday 28 September 19 09:08 BST (UK)
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Just wondering if anybody can identify this Australian nurse's uniform from around 1905-1910? This is my great aunt, and I was wondering whether she could be a dental nurse, rather than a hospital nurse?
I'm trying to solve a mystery regarding her illegitimate son born 1909 who's father nobody knows. The son was given three christian names with the third name being unusual - "Pittar". There were only a couple of people named Pittar living in Sydney around that time in Sydney, including a father and son dentist. I was wondering if she could have been a dental nurse working at the dental practice, and had a "fling" with one of them? Just a theory, but it's the best I can think of.
Les
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The website www.pulseuniform.com has photographs of nurses with Edith Cavell, wearing a very similar uniform. I suspect the Australian nurses c WW1 followed a similar design.
There is an Australian Facebook page "Unnamed soldiers of the Great War" If you can post your photo on that page, then the many experts in this area may be able to help you. Its a very reputable page.
Are you happy to provide her name?
shume australia
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The website www.pulseuniform.com has photographs of nurses with Edith Cavell, wearing a very similar uniform. I suspect the Australian nurses c WW1 followed a similar design.
There is an Australian Facebook page "Unnamed soldiers of the Great War" If you can post your photo on that page, then the many experts in this area may be able to help you. Its a very reputable page.
Are you happy to provide her name?
shume australia
Thank you for your reply. I couldn't find Edith Cavell on the link you supplied (just ad's for nurses uniforms), however, I did find her on Google Search, and looked at nurse's unform images associated with that time frame. Similar designs, but nothing exactly the same.
The ancestor's name is Edith Ettie SMITH b.1889, Balmain NSW. That makes her 20 at the time of the birth of her son in 1909, where she describes her occupation as "domestic duties". Wonder how old she was in the photo? When she finally married in 1916, once again she gave her occuaption as "domestic duties". Therefore I don't think she was a WW1 Army nurse?
Les
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In those days there would not have been an "industry standard" or a few national manufacturers supplying identical uniforms so it is probably impossible to be sure. Dental nurses in NSW would probably have had similar but not identical costume to those in other parts of Australia, or anywhere in the British Empire and Dominions, and there could have been significant differences in headgear.
The only remotely relevant image I found is a Punch cartoon from 1907
https://punch.photoshelter.com/image/I00008PBn0Ed4VXQ
Although it is a cartoon, the style of clothing would be quite accurate.
So, all I can say for sure is that the uniform your lady is weraring is consistent with that of a dental nurse in the Edwardian era.
Philip
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Thank you Philip - anything positive helps my cause.
Just another thing that goes towards my theory that that one of the dentists may be the father of my ancestor's illegitimate son - he was born Herbert Charles Pittar Smith, however, in later life I have him signing his name on numerous occassions just using the initials H C W P Smith. Where does the "W" come in? The dentist son was Walter Pittar!
Les
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Thank you Philip - anything positive helps my cause.
Just another thing that goes towards my theory that that one of the dentists may be the father of my ancestor's illegitimate son - he was born Herbert Charles Pittar Smith, however, in later life I have him signing his name on numerous occassions just using the initials H C W P Smith. Where does the "W" come in? The dentist son was Walter Pittar!
Les
W and PITTAR are strong indications. Unless the family had a close PITTAR relative there is a fair probability that Walter could have been the father.
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Does Herbert ever give a father’s name on any certificates?
I agree that the use of the surname Pittar makes this scenario extremely likely, and even if she was not a dental nurse there could be other ways they may have come into contact.
Are you in contact with any of Herbert’s descendants? A DNA test might help you prove your theory.
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I cannot help with the Uniform, but I do know the surname PITTAR in that era in Sydney ... only from a local history aspect, not family ... although I can wish ! and I am sure Les can too ... Kirribilli House ...
Hopefully the following is NOT too much of a side track. I noticed the surname PITTAR and my local history knowledge said ‘Kirribilli House’ … which of course is the Sydney Residence for Australian Prime Ministers… so I have been thinking outside the square …. Anyways …
Arthur Thomas Henry PITTAR, the dentist, likely also owned various properties in Darlinghurst. Perhaps including the famous Hampton Court Flats. SMH 11 July 1941 has the family notice with names of his wife and children. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17752626
Likely some of the funding to construct those flats may have come from the deceased estate of Walter Douglas Brewer PITTAR, dentist… who died 1922… Govt Gazette 1 June 1923 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/225019624 (and some funding from sale of Kirribilli House to the Commonwealth too) …
Govt Gaz 6 Feb 1903, p 1056 has 3 dentists PITTAR … all from Auckland: Arthur Thomas Henry, Parke, Walter Douglas. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/220260359/14061243 Same 3 Govt Gaz 28 Jan 1909 p 496. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/227059309/14941327
Looking at NZ BDM Parke has children in NZ 1900, 01, 03, 05, 07, 09, 13; Walter in 1905 and 1908, and Arthur in 1900, 02, and 07. Mary Ann PITTAR dies in New Zealand, aged 39 years, in 1909. And then in NSW Arthur marries Catherine Morgan in 1912. Arthur and Mary Ann also have children in NSW …
Now, I think Arthur was likely known as ‘Harry’ …. See the Auckland Star newspaper, 13 Dec 1909. Two brothers (both married at the time) are setting out to conquer London with Dental Chambers … They arrived six months prior (probably per the SS Malwa ex Sydney early April, - arriving London 8 May 1909) … then in December 1909, NZ papers past news item shows that Harry PITTAR had a recent loss, and needed to make ‘flying visit’ to NZ via Marseilles and Sydney. https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/AS19091213.2.37
I may be way off track, Les, but I am confident that Kirribilli House (the Sydney Residence for Australian Prime Ministers) was once owned by Harry PITTAR, the dentist.
JM
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dob for Herbert seems to be early August 1909. :) drilling down on NSW BDM online index.
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https://www.pulseuniform.com/coffee-time/nursing-uniforms-of-the-past-and-present-nurse-uniforms-history/
Here is the complete link to the history of nursing uniforms.. sorry I only sent part of it which didn't prove useful.
shume
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https://www.pulseuniform.com/coffee-time/nursing-uniforms-of-the-past-and-present-nurse-uniforms-history/
Here is the complete link to the history of nursing uniforms.. sorry I only sent part of it which didn't prove useful.
shume
Thanks for this link. Quite a few similar uniforms as to the one worn by my ancestor. I noted a comment that some of the uniforms were similar to domestic servants. So I looked at domestic servant uniforms as well, and yes, they do look like nurses uniforms.
Could the photo be a domestic servant uniform, and not a nurse? She nominates herself as "domestic duties" in 1909 (birth of son), 1913 (Electoral Roll at parent's address) and 1916 (marriage). The photo is addressed to her sister (on the back), but one would presume she would be showing off her nurse's uniform rahter than her domestic servant's uniform.........maybe?
Les
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Does Herbert ever give a father’s name on any certificates?
I agree that the use of the surname Pittar makes this scenario extremely likely, and even if she was not a dental nurse there could be other ways they may have come into contact.
Are you in contact with any of Herbert’s descendants? A DNA test might help you prove your theory.
Thanks Ruskie - Herbert died unmarried and childless in the 1990's. He grew up as the "son" of his grandparents who raised him, and the "brother" of his real mother, Edith, who left him. He had half brothers when his real mother married in 1916 and had 4 boys. I've spoken to some descendants of those half brothers (all now deceased), however, they were all unaware of Herbert's half brother connection to the their family - it was a shock to them as they knew Herbert as Edith's brother, not as her son.
When Herbert's grandparents died, he was referred to as their "son" in Funeral Notices, however, not on their Death Certificates. He did not appear as a son on his real mother's Death Certificate.
I'm unaware of any DNA matches that may assist my research, if they could assist at all?
Les
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I cannot help with the Uniform, but I do know the surname PITTAR in that era in Sydney ... only from a local history aspect, not family ... although I can wish ! and I am sure Les can too ... Kirribilli House .................etc etc
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dob for Herbert seems to be early August 1909. :) drilling down on NSW BDM online index.
Thanks JM for your very informative(!) reply. I did a bit of research into the PITTAR family as well, but was unaware of the Kiirribill House connection. I know the father PITTAR and his sons were around at the time leading up to the birth of Herbert Charles Pittar SMITH, and thought it could either be the father or one of the sons (all theory of cause!). When I started seeing an added "W" to Herbert's signature that's when I thought maybe Walter PITTAR?
I know Walter was married at the time and immigration records show him sailing between Sydney and NZ a number of times. Of interest was him arriving in Sydney 8/9/1908 and returning to NZ 9/12/1908. This fits in with Herbert's birth 10/8/1909 - once again all just a theory.
Les
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There are many styles of nurses outfits including housemaid/nursemaid but there isn't an exact match for this one although some in the link a very similar. The apron's bib is distinctive and much wider extending across the shoulders and this sets it apart from the usual nurse's outfit. Not sure if it is a mark on the photo but there appears to be a cord like object under the left hand side of the bib as you look at the photo.
The theory put forward about a dental nurse I think is very plausible
Great photos here 8)
https://www.vintag.es/2018/04/51-elegant-photos-of-nurses-from.html
I would like to see this one scanned at 300dpi and put up on the photo board for repair ;D
Carol
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Messrs A. T- Harry Pittar and Walter D. Pittar are'two Aucklanders who have
boldly set out to conquer London. They arrived in the Malwa six months ago, and now each night in the Strand may
be seen in letters of blazing light the
legend, "Pittar Brothers, Dental Cham- bers." The two brothers have taken
premises in Walter House, opposite the
Tivoli, and fitted up rooms which, they
claim, are the largest and most up-todate of the kind in the UnitedKingdom.
But this is only a beginning. By degrees they propose to openotherbranches
in London'and the provinces. Owing to
a recent loss, Mr Harry Pittar-is leaving,
shortly via--, Marseilles and Sydney on
a, flying visit to New Zealand, but he
intends returning to London as soon as possible
This extract is from "The Poverty Bay Herald" (NZ) Dec 1909: It clearly states Harry and Walter as brothers.
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Hi Les,
I was extremely interested to read your post, especially since i am researching my grandfather, who we have just days ago found out was illegitimate.
All indications at the moment are he was the results of a fling between my great grandmother and a NZ dentist in England....Walter Douglas Brewer Pittar.
i would dearly love to hear from you...
Warmest regards,
Stacy
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quote author=Erica Rae link=topic=819344.msg6915812#msg6915812 date=1585068949]
Hi Les,
I was extremely interested to read your post, especially since i am researching my grandfather, who we have just days ago found out was illegitimate.
All indications at the moment are he was the results of a fling between my great grandmother and a NZ dentist in England....Walter Douglas Brewer Pittar.
i would dearly love to hear from you...
Warmest regards,
Stacy
[/quote]
Hi Stacy
WOW!!! What a co-incidence! I'll message you with my email address, and take it from there.
Les