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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: mookp1892 on Sunday 22 September 19 23:34 BST (UK)
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Hello all
Looking for a bit of insight or advice.
My ancestors married in 1835 at a CofE church. I have found the groom's baptism (CofE) but the only bride's baptism I can find is Catholic.
What is the likelihood of them marrying?
Would she have had to convert?
Did interfaith marriages happen in the Victorian times? And was there stigma?
Thanks very much
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What is the likelihood of them marrying?
You don't mention in which country?
In any case, I don't see a problem.
Would she have had to convert?
It's more usual for non-Catholics yo have to "convert" to Catholicism. Never heard of it the other way around.
Did interfaith marriages happen in the Victorian times? And was there stigma?
Yes; No.
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I am in NSW Australia. May add that in NSW in such a mixed marriage that the couple often retained their own denomination, with their daughters following their mum's religious practices and the sons following their dad's. So the girls may have attended a convent schooling and extra activities including religious instruction there under the guidance of R.C nuns.
So in NSW it would not have been considered to be an interfaith marriage, but rather simply an inter-denominational marriage.
JM
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A couple of additional thoughts:
If her name is a common one there may be more baptisms you haven’t found, records lost or not transcribed etc. :)
Have you searched a few years both sides of the year you believe she was born?
She may not have been baptised.
Do the censuses give her place of birth?
Have you checked neighbouring areas?
If the Catholic baptism gives her father’s /mother’s name/s did she name any of her children after them?
I’m sure if you give all the details you have about the couple, someone will try to help you.
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Just a little thing, but they were both Christians, that is to say both of the same faith.
Had one of them been a Muslim, or Skih, or Hindo, or Confusian, then I could see that there could have been some difficulties.
I have many (20+) RC /CoE marriages in my and my wife's tree. There were only two difficulties that I can find -
1 - RC wife insisting that the children go to the nearest RC school (40 mile round trip, twice a day) and
2 - CoE wife stating that 5 children was enough and that they (the parents) were going to take charge of their own procreation and not leave it in God's hands any longer.
Regards
Chas
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Scottish marriage - 1908 - Jewish groom and RC bride. Dispensation was obtained to allow the marriage to take place in the RC church. As far as I can make out neither changed their religion after marriage. No children, and he was buried in the Jewish Cemetery. Her second marriage was at the Register Office.
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I agree that this is just a 'mixed marriage' to use the usual Catholic terminology, ie one between Christians of different denominations. A marriage of this kind in a Catholic church would require a dispensation, frequently noted in the margin of the marriage register in the church.
Dispensations could be required for all sorts of reasons and is basically just an official decision to waive usual practice. It was usual practice not to allow weddings during Lent (period before Easter) or Advent (period before Christamas) for example, but if the groom was soon being posted abroad by the army, or one of the parents was close to death but wanted to see his son /daughter married, it was possible to waive the rules for the benefit of those involved.
One of the most usual dispensations in the 20th century was to allow a mixed marriage. My father was very high church C of E, my mother was Catholic. In the ninteenth century, I would expect a mixed marriage in Australia to be less common than in 20th century England, but still possible at a time when the local population is a mixture of people whose backgrounds are very different.
There would be no obligation for anyone to convert to anything, but there was definitely a tendency for some Catholic priests to be reluctant to co-operate by granting a dispensation. My aunt was married in a C of E church in 1932 (because her parish priest dug his heels in when a neighbour told him she was planning to marry a non-Catholic). She was married again, to the same man, in a Catholic ceremony in a neighbouring RC parish church, by a priest who had recently baptised her first child in 1934. He couldn't understand why no dispensation had been given in the first place.
I agree that you need to keep investigating other possibilities and keep an open mind over the mixed marriage possibility. Good luck with your search.
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Source Wikipedia
“The Act for Marriages in England 1836, 6 & 7 Wm IV, c. 85 (17 August 1836) was an Act that legalised civil marriage in England and Wales from 1 January 1837. Since the Marriage Act 1753, the only legally recognised marriages in England and Wales had been those performed by the Church of England, Jews and Quakers.”
So prior to 1837 a marriage in a Catholic Church wasn’t legal.
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If Captain Mainwaring were still with us, he'd say 'I wondered who'd be first to spot that' ;D
You beat me to it Nic.
Carol
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My OH and myself both have Irish Catholic gt gt grandparents who arrived in UK in the 1850/60s, one pair to London and the other pair to the West Midlands. Their children were baptised Catholic, but the children all married C of E and then their children were baptised C of E.
Mine in the West Midlands lived very close to a Catholic church but used C of E churches further away to baptise their children.
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Hello all
Looking for a bit of insight or advice.
My ancestors married in 1835 at a CofE church. I have found the groom's baptism (CofE) but the only bride's baptism I can find is Catholic.
What is the likelihood of them marrying?
Would she have had to convert?
Did interfaith marriages happen in the Victorian times? And was there stigma?
Thanks very much
I am not at all sure that this question is about a marriage in England and Wales. Perhaps our OP can advise...
It was 1835, so if in one of the Colonies, e.g. NSW where I am, may I assure you that the 1836 Marriage Act Nic mentions had no authority in NSW or any British Colony as it did not expressly extend to those colonies.
No English statute was applicable in NSW effective from 19 July 1823 as per the determination of the NSW Supreme Court Chief Justice, unless the legislation specifically said so.
Many marriage ceremonies had been conducted according to RC rites or for example in Wesleyan and other denominations rites in NSW in the penal era.
The CofE was not ever recognised as 'The Established Church' in the colonies, ....
Many of those who came to the colonies in the penal era were soldiers sent as garrison forces ... Some were Irish as were convicts .... Some of those who came as Missionaries were Wesleyan ... Some of the first families who arrived in the 1790s as free settlers were Scotch ... Presbyterians ... There were Muslims, Roman Catholics, Hindus, CofE, Pagans, Jews, and various Protesting denominations in NSW according to the 1828 NSW Census.
As to the Victorian era and mixed marriages ...and any stigma ... 1835 ... when was the Victorian Era at its zenith? Were the two who married in 1835 still living together in their old age?
The thread is on the Common Room Board but if it is posing a question specifically about England and Wales perhaps it needs to be moved to the England General board.
JM
Source Wikipedia
“The Act for Marriages in England 1836, 6 & 7 Wm IV, c. 85 (17 August 1836) was an Act that legalised civil marriage in England and Wales from 1 January 1837. Since the Marriage Act 1753, the only legally recognised marriages in England and Wales had been those performed by the Church of England, Jews and Quakers.”
So prior to 1837 a marriage in a Catholic Church wasn’t legal.
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Hello all
Thank you for all of your responses.
Below is some extra info:
Marriage: 19 Apr 1835 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Thomas Ellison - (X), Wigan Parish
Mary Martland - (X), Wigan Parish
Baptism: 18 Aug 1811 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Thomas Ellison - third Son of Robert Ellison & Susan (formerly Fentham)
Born: 26 Jul
Abode: Ince
Occupation: Weaver
Mother's Parents: James & Ellen Fentham
Below the only baptism match I can find so far:
Baptism: 20 Dec 1812 St John RC, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Mary Markland - Daughter of Willm. Markland & Ann
Born: 19 Dec 1812
Godparents: James Markland; Mary Walker
Census birth dates/places of Mary Ellison nee Markland:
1851 born Wigan 1813
1861 born Ince 1816
1871 born Wigan 1813
1881 born Wigan 1812
1891 born Ince 1812
2 Aug 1835 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Robert Elison - 1 Son of Thomas Elison & Mary
Born: 3 Jul
Abode: Ince
Occupation: Weaver
10 Sep 1837 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Suzannah Ellison - first daughter of Thomas Ellison & Mary
Born: 7 Sep
Abode: Ince
Occupation: Labourer
5 Jan 1840 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
George Ellison - 2d. Son of Thomas Ellison & Mary
Born: 30 Dec 1839
Abode: Scholes
Occupation: Labourer
15 May 1842 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Ellison - Daur. of Thomas Ellison & Mary
Born: 8 May
Abode: Ince
Occupation: Labourer
22 Jul 1844 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Ellen Ellison - Daur. of Thomas Ellison & Mary
Born: 23 Jun
Abode: Ince
Occupation: Labourer
3 Aug 1846 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Ellen Ellison - Daur. of Thomas Ellison & Mary
Born: 12 Jul
Abode: Ince
Occupation: Labourer
18 Dec 1848 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Thomas Ellison - Son of Thomas Ellison & Mary
Born: 19 Nov
Abode: Ince
Occupation: Labourer
18 Sep 1853 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
William Ellison - Son of Thomas Ellison & Mary
Born: 7 Aug 1853
Abode: Ince
Occupation: Labourer
On LancsBMD mother's maiden name recorded as 'Markland'
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Did interfaith marriages happen in the Victorian times? And was there stigma?
Victoria became queen in 1837 so 1835 was before the Victorian era. William was king in 1835.
I was surprised to see "Prot." after the name of one of my ag. lab. 4xGGFs at the Catholic baptisms of some of his children in 1820s and 1830s. They lived in an area in Lancashire, north of Preston, with a high Catholic population and he had a traditionally Catholic surname. The marriage was in the C. of E. parish church.
A 3xGGM, C of E., married in a Catholic church in Preston in 1843, to her Scottish-born husband. The wedding happened during the month of the bride's 21st birthday. They had a son born 1841 who died aged 8 months. I suspect that the marriage may have been delayed for 2 years because of family disapproval but have no evidence. Son b. 1841 and a later son were baptised C. of E. No baptisms found for 2 daughters of the marriage. 2 elder children of a daughter had their children baptised R.C. That 3xGGM's 2nd husband may also have been R.C. They married in an Anglican church in a tiny village 1861.
Apart from my Scottish ancestor, all the aforesaid people were English. Their ancestors had lived in the same areas for hundreds of years. Some families might have known each other for a long time. Some parties to marriages may have been distantly related. The only difference between them was religious denomination. There were Catholic members of the English gentry and a growing Catholic middle class in England.
Catholics in England continued to marry in Anglican churches after 1837, even when both parties were R.C., for a variety of reasons - cost being one. Marriage of a Catholic in an Anglican church in England was accepted as valid by the Catholic Church until 1908.
Legality and religious validity of marriages where one or both parties was Catholic varied according to country and time.
The law on marriage wasn't uniform in the 4 countries of the United Kingdom. There was a series of debates on marriage in the House of Commons in 1830s, after Catholics were allowed to be M.P.s. A marriage between a Catholic and an Anglican in a Catholic church in Ireland wasn't legally valid until late 1860s. There was a Royal Commission on marriage in 1868 highlighting anomalies in countries in the U.K. There were cases of marriages being declared invalid and children illegitimate, wives abandoned and husbands able to contract 2nd marriages while 1st wife was alive without committing bigamy.
My 2xGGF of another branch, whose family had been Catholics in England since the Reformation and whose cousin was a well-known clergyman, married his 2nd wife in a Protestant church in 1879. The bride, a widow and older than him, wasn't Catholic. It was a wedding at short notice - 1st wife had died in childbirth 2 months earlier and there was a baby and 6 older children to be cared for. There were no children of the 2nd marriage.
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I notice there wasn't a daughter named Ann, after Mary's mother on the list.
Possible marriage at St. John R.C. 11th June 1812 William Markland & Ann Thorp. There should be a corresponding C. of E. marriage.*
Likely sisters of Mary baptised at St. John's: Ann 1816, Eliza 1818 and Margaret 1821.
(LANOPC)
*Edit. The Anglican (legal) wedding was at All Saints the next day. A witness was James Pilkington who married Catherine Bamber at All Saints the same day and at St. John's R.C. the previous day.
Bamber is an old Catholic surname in Lancashire.