RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cheshire => Topic started by: a chesters on Saturday 21 September 19 05:20 BST (UK)
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I have an ancestor, John Farr, born in 1759 at Haslington Cheshire.
I have a baptism for him on 17 June 1759 at Haslington, with father named as Thomas.
Event: Christening
Event Date: 17 Jun 1759
Event Place: Haslington, Cheshire
Name: John Far
Father: Thos. Far
Film Number: 2186911
Digital Folder No 4019282
Image Number 178
As per Family Search
I have also found a baptism for John Farr on 29 July 1759 at Manchester.
Name: John Farr
Event Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 29 Jul 1759
Parish: Manchester, St Mary, St Denys and St George
Father's name: Thos Farr
Archive Roll: 748
in the Manchester, England, Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1573-1812 (Cathedral) on Ancestry.
Is it possible for Thomas to have taken John from Haslington to Manchester some six weeks later for another baptism, or is it just a cast of two fathers naming their sons John, with the births being about the same time.
At this time I have only the baptism and marriage of John Farr, and nothing about Thomas to go on to find out if they are the same or not.
Any assistance would be very gratefully accepted.
A Chesters
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My only thought is that the Haslington baptism was a private baptism, but the parish register image (FindMyPast) offers no further information at all. :-\
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Thank you for that.
I had not thought about a private baptism :-[
AC
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Haslington was a chapelry in the parish of Bottomley, until 1860.
Maybe the parents wanted a "proper" baptism in a parish church?
And perhaps one of the 2 places was the mother's family home, and the other the father's family home?
See: https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/CHS/haslington/haslington_church
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I would start by assuming that these are two separate people then try to disprove that. Look for evidence of the second John and Thomas living in Manchester in subsequent life events.
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The Genuki site states that, as the crow flies, it is 27 miles from Haslington to Manchester - a long way to go for a christening.
Emeltom
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I've just been doing some cross checking of Far* with father named Thomas/Thos in Manchester, Lancashire and Cheshire for the period 1760 +/- 5. There are quite a few* in Manchester but only your John in Haslington. The other Haslington baptisms with that father's name are for Farrington. I'm wondering if Far was written by mistake and could have been Farrington.
Gadget
*add - as Farr
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I've done some spot-checking of other baptisms recorded in the Haslington registers in the same year as John Far(r) son of Thomas, searching FindMyPast and ancestry for a corresponding Bishops Transcript. Eg Mary Lea, Elizabeth Brockley, etc etc; also searched by Christian name alone + 1759, just in case the surname has been badly indexed. Also took into account that Haslington seems to have been a chapelry within the parish of Barthomley, and might have been indexed as Barthomley on FindMyPast. I found the Barthomley BTs on FindMyPast, but they seem to confirm that Haslington chapelry data for 1759 is missing from them: ie Mary Lea, Eliz. Brockley etc do not appear. So, given the seeming total absence of corresponding BTs anywhere for anyone listed in the Haslington bp records of 1759, I rather imagine that John Farr bp 29/7/1759 Manchester must be a different person (possibly died 1813). That being said, I haven't managed to 'kill off' John s of Thomas! There's a possible candidate d 1760 'pauper of Haslington' but the context suggests he was an adult.
Hope this helps :)
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I found the Barthomley BTs on FindMyPast, but they seem to confirm that Haslington chapelry data for 1759 is missing from them
Not quite sure what you have been looking for. BumbleB and I have both looked at the parish record image for John Far in Haslington. If they are just missing from the BTs then the baptism is still there in the parish records :-\
Gadget
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I'm saying, admittedly not very clearly :-[, that if no BT can be found to correspond with any of the entries in the Haslington chapelry bp records for 1759, then surely it follows that the Manchester John Farr is likely to be someone different? His different bp date would support that notion.
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I don't follow your logic. BT submissions are constructed from the parish records and are submitted every 3 months. There are many cases where the PRs are not copied correctly or are missing.
Gadget
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A-C -
What has led you to John Far(r) - i.e, were do you pick him up as an adult ? E.g. was he in Cheshire or Manchester?
Gadget
Add - where did he marry and what did he call his children?
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... There are many cases where the PRs are not copied correctly or are missing.
Precisely! In this instance I conclude that the Haslington chapelry records for 1759 for whatever reason never got to be transcribed along with the other Barthomley PRs for the purposes of the BT. If none of the other Haslington chapelry bp entries for 1759 can be found in a BT, then I find it hard to imagine how/why John Farr could or should be an exception; and to associate him with a 'duplicate' bp in Manchester plus a different date is a big leap of faith!
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I don't think any of us are saying that it is the same person. I'm certainly not.
I think the OP is trying to work out which one is his, if either of them are. That's why I asked about his marriage and children in my previous post.
Gadget
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Gadget,
Is it possible for Thomas to have taken John from Haslington to Manchester some six weeks later for another baptism, or is it just a cast of two fathers naming their sons John, with the births being about the same time.
This is what I've been trying to answer. In fact, I got the impression when i made my first post that the jury was still out, so I looked for evidence in the sources, trying to explain my methodology at the same time.
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I want to find why a-c has decided on either baptism. As far as I can see, he has a marriage but nothing else.
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Birtle - this is why I'm querying the Haslington baptism.
I've just been doing some cross checking of Far* with father named Thomas/Thos in Manchester, Lancashire and Cheshire for the period 1760 +/- 5. There are quite a few* in Manchester but only your John in Haslington. The other Haslington baptisms with that father's name are for Farrington. I'm wondering if Far was written by mistake and could have been Farrington.
Gadget
*add - as Farr
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Gadget
Birtle - this is why I'm querying the Haslington baptism.
I think there's evidence that they are two distinct individuals:-
Re JF in Haslington:- John Farr, tailor = Ellen Key, Barthomley 25 Jan 1780.
Their son John bur 5 Oct 1798 age 1 week (father John is described as a tailor of Winte[r]ley - regarding which, see Genuki under Haslington). Various other children bp 1788-1797 Haslington/Barthomley but not further investigated. John and Ellen not yet killed off!
Re a (different) JF in Manchester:- will of John Farr, late of Manchester, linen draper 1813 [cf Index of wills].
JF bur 16 July 1813 Cheetham St Marks chapelry, age 54 [ie b 1759ish], abode Market St, Manchester. That fits JF s of Thos bp July 1759 Manchester.
As a fustian cutter of the town of Manchester he may have married Alice Holdcroft 1784 Manchester St Denys... (they had children up to 1803); Alice bur Cheetham St Mark 1805 age 40.
I'm not saying that either fits AC's bill, but they do demonstrate the existence of two distinct guys named John Farr, either bp 1759 Haslington or 1759 Manchester.
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I agree that there are two, as I said in my post this morning. It would be good to know why AC thinks the Haslington one is his.
I've looked through his previous posts and have found an Ann Farr and a Samuel Farr in Cheshire mentioned but not a John until this post.
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Thank you all for your interest and help.
I have got to this point by following from a direct ancestor, Samuel Farr, baptised at Sandbach, Cheshire
Record title: England, Cheshire Bishop's Transcripts, 1598-1900
name: Samuel Farr
event: Christening
event date:01 Jul 1789
event place: Sanbach, Cheshire, England
gender: Male
father: John Farr
digital folder number: 4018545
Samuel married Francis Norebury at Sandbach, and all five of the children I have discovered were baptized at Sandbach
I have father John Farr married to Ellen Key
Event: Marriage
Event Date: 25 Jan 1780
Event Place: Barthomley, Cheshire
Name: John Farr
Spouse: Ellen Key
Film Number: 2000009
Digital Folder Number 4018760
Image Number 100
As per Family Search
I also have John Farr baptized
Event: Christening
Event Date: 17 Jun 1759
Event Place: Haslington, Cheshire
Name: John Far
Father: Thos. Far
Film Number: 2186911
Digital Folder No 4019282
Image Number 178
As per Family Search
It is when I was doing further research to find out more about John and hopefully his father, that I ran into the Manchester John Farr with father Thomas. I have so far only found Samuel, but that does not mean there are no other children, just that I have not found them yet.
With all the information you great Rootschatters have found, I am willing to discard the Manchester John Farr, as a person with the same name, and same fathers name. It is just the closeness of the baptism dates that had me wondering.
Again, many thanks for all your help.
AC
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Hmmmm! John and Ellen were very much rooted in Haslington, and had a son Samuel in 1797.
The Samuel Farr (grocer) who mar Frances Norbury in 1814 Sandbach was 25+ (PR and Marr licence), indicating a DOB of abt 1789. That fits with Samuel bp Feb 1789 Sandbach s of John Farr of Sandbach. A John Farr of Sandbach married Ann Weston July 1784 Sandbach, both being of that parish. Ann possibly bur 1837 Sandbach age 86. Not certain abt John but possibly bur 1832: the will of John F of Sandbach written 1815, proved 1832, names his wife Ann, sons William and Samuel, gd-dtr Mary Ann (the dtr of Samuel), gd-son John (s of Wllm). John also names his sisters Elizabeth Lees of Sheffield, Yorks., and Mary Wildblood of Smallwood, Cheshire. It's quite an interesting will...
In sum, I'd incline towards discounting John = Ellen of Haslington/Barthomley, in favour of John and Ann of Sandbach as the parents of Samuel 1789.
I hope this helps - it's been a very interesting journey! :)
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Birtle, thanks for that.
You have put a different light on this family, one I had not seen, as I thought I had them sorted out :'(
Could you please let me know where you found that will, as it will give me some idea, I hope, of sorting out this family conundrum.
AC
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Sorry - well, not really, if I've helped - to have been the fly in the ointment!
Images (nb but not transcriptions) of Cheshire wills are viewable/downloadable online on FindMyPast, but if you don't have a sub I'd recommend against purchasing credits: the list of search results doesn't always distinguish between pithy entries in the historic 'Index to Death Duty registers' (though they can be useful) and images of the will itself, so it has the potential to get a bit wasteful of time if not money. In addition, odd wills/images have a habit of disappearing from FindMyPast from time to time...
The alternative is the master index of Cheshire wills available via here http://www.cheshirearchives.org.uk/search-and-shop/search-and-shop.aspx (http://www.cheshirearchives.org.uk/search-and-shop/search-and-shop.aspx). You can order paper copies of original wills direct from Cheshire Record Office (CRO) by this route.
Notes re searching CRO: it indexes the date of probate NOT death, and the two can be years apart. Also, when entering surnames in the Cheshire Record Office search form I recommend inputting as few letters as possible, thus: Far (No need to use a terminal asterisk or anything to indicate truncation). This is because the name is indexed using the spelling as found in the will itself, which of course can be variable.
Give a good range of dates to cover the date of death/probate issue, and I'd recommend not putting in a place as it might be different from what you'd expect (I'm mentioning all this as the CRO Help pages have lost their link).
NB click on the More Details button in the CRO search results once you've found a match; this will tell you whether it is for a will, an administration ('admon'), or if there's an inventory (wonderful things!).
Btw, even if you should get a sub to FindMyPast I'd strongly recommend using the Record Office database as a reliable double-check when searching.
Have fun :)
PS Also bear in mind that the will might have been written years before the testator's death; the date of writing will be indicated either at the start or end of the will. Beneficiaries, such as those named in John Farr's will, might have departed this mortal coil by the time he died or the will was proved!
The date of probate is often recorded in a note on end pages of the will
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... and google <farr sandbach norbury new monthly magazine> . This pinpoints where Samuel who married Mary Norbury lived. It could possibly provide a clue when looking into his father John's bp (and also the bp's of John's siblings as eg named in his will) and distinguishing them from all the other Sandbach Farr's. I'll say no more - it'd spoil the fun. But let me know if you get stuck.
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Birtle, thank you for your interest and help.
I have looked at the Cheshire Archives, and as a result, I think I can use the GRO information regarding Samuel's death of the Dec quarter 1839, rather than the FS of 1851!
I will have a look at the information you have generously supplied, and see what i can sort out.
I will have to go to the library to get Findmypast access to look at the wills.
Again, many thanks.
AC
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I will have to go to the library to get Findmypast access to look at the wills.
If you can get access to FindMyPast then you'll also be able to find images of Cheshire PRs and BTs: bp's, marriages and burials. An invaluable resource. Usefully, the PRs overlap to some extent with the civil registers that began in 1837 (as found in GRO).
Birtle