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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: Donches on Thursday 19 September 19 11:24 BST (UK)
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I'd appreciate an improvement of this photograph. The driver is John Bee and it was taken in the 1950's in Edinburgh. Can anyone identify the locomotive?
Don
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Hello.
As nobody has offered anything yet, I will have a go with the little I know.
By the 1950s the UK railway companies had been nationalised as British Railways, and were run as Regions. Each region was given a prefix number, used before the loco’s previous company number, usually converting it to five figures.
London North Eastern:LNER was the major line from Edinburgh, but the loco seems to have a two-digit number. I expected to see something like *4472, for one of the Flying Scotsman class but you will have to wait for better advice.
A
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The locomotive is a LNER Gresley A4 Pacific:
LNER No. 1946 No. BR No. Disposal Date Name
4483 24 60024 1966 Kingfisher
https://www.lner.info/locos/A/a4.php
Tony
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This is a London & North Eastern Railway streamlined express engine named Kingfisher built at Doncaster in December 1936, and originally given the number 4483. It was renumbered 24 (as in the photo) in May 1946 and was then painted blue.
After nationalisation British Railways gave it the number 60024 in June 1948, so the date of the photo is mid-1946 to mid-1948.
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Repainting of stock was not the highest priority of the newly nationalised railway. Personally I would say before 1952, based on a paint in 1946 as shown, and a knowledge of general repair schedules which barring mishaps would be done every 4 to 6 years
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The dates when this engine was repainted, and the colours used, are all on record, thus:
When it was new, it was light green; in January 1938, blue; in February 1943 (wartime), black; in August 1946, blue. The blue was the light LNER shade called 'garter blue'.
Then under BR it was painted a purplish-blue in June 1948; in August 1950, dark blue, and in March 1952, dark GWR green, which (sadly, in my opinion) it retained until it was scrapped in 1966.
Harry.
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I'm delighted with the improvement to the photograph and the identification of the locomotive. I'm pretty sure that the boy in the cab was John Bee's nephew, Ian Bee. He was born in 1942 and looks about six in the photo, dating it to about 1948 which fits the information about the numbering of the engine.
As an aside, John Bee also drove the Flying Scotsman, and said he was the driver of the train in the film "The Thirtynine Steps", with Kenneth Moore, when it stopped on the Forth Bridge.
Don
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The information given by Henry 7 pins the photo date down to between 1946 and 1948 as it appears like known b&w photos of engines in Garter Blue. There were a variety of experimental liveries and letterings in the early days of BR despite financial constraints.
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From standard practice in the early 50s which banned unauthorized riding on the footplate Mr Bee was putting his job in serious jeopardy.
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One from me
Pat
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I like the colour photograph. Regarding job in jeopardy, the loco appears to be stationary, and the date is pre nineteen fifties.
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Stationary or not. It was a sacking offence strongly enforced after WW2 to around 1960.
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Redroger you are assuming that the youngster's presence in the cab was unauthorised. The photo seems to have been taken in a very public place, Waverley station I think; there is nothing to suggest that it was a hurried, snatched, illicit photo so I doubt if Mr Bee was putting his job at risk.
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Rode in a cab with my female cousin in an National Coal Board steam locomotive. The fireman put a couple of detonators on the tracks for us to have as squashed souvenirs.
Rode on a South African steam locomotive in the 1970's. the driver however put us off and we climbed back into the carriages before we got to the terminus.
Sat, yes sat, in the cab of Mallard when I was on a private tour in Clapham when the museum was there.
Have from time to time travelled on the Clapham Omnibus. I attribute that for what I am today.
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Could the blue locomotive be in a museum?
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barryd, I'm not sure about this one but the Mallard which is the same class is in York Railway museum. One thing I noticed when restoring No 24, there is no LNER logo on it.
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Redroger you are assuming that the youngster's presence in the cab was unauthorised. The photo seems to have been taken in a very public place, Waverley station I think; there is nothing to suggest that it was a hurried, snatched, illicit photo so I doubt if Mr Bee was putting his job at risk.
If it was official there would be any number of higher officials around, but possibly the long hands of authority did not extend north
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Rode in a cab with my female cousin in an National Coal Board steam locomotive. The fireman put a couple of detonators on the tracks for us to have as squashed souvenirs.
Rode on a South African steam locomotive in the 1970's. the driver however put us off and we climbed back into the carriages before we got to the terminus.
Sat, yes sat, in the cab of Mallard when I was on a private tour in Clapham when the museum was there.
Have from time to time travelled on the Clapham Omnibus. I attribute that for what I am today.
NCB Not mainline railway, but extensive system.South Africa railway had its own practices.
I believe though I haven't been to York lately keep off is the Health and safety norm.
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No fewer than six of this class of thirty-five engines are still in existence, but not Kingfisher which was withdrawn from service in 1966 and sold to a scrap merchant. One of the six is in Canada, one in the USA, and four in Britain, including Mallard in the National Railway Museum at York.
I like Trishanne's colour work, but I think the top of the tender, next to the coal and above the beading above the driver's head would have been black, as would the roof of the cab. The number '24' would have been chrome-plated (silver) rather than polished brass, but I'm not sure about the oval plate below the number, or the cab window-frame.
As for Mr Bee getting the sack because he took his little nephew onto the footplate, maybe this was his last day at work before retirement. I'd say the date must be 1948, because camera films were unobtainable by the general public until then.
Harry.
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Harry,I was using this photo of the Mallard as my colour guide. It is difficult to see the roof colours, but I can change anything if necessary. I was also guided by the colours of the numbers on the Mallard. I know nothing about trains even though I used to go train spotting with my brother in the 1940s :D
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Yes Trishanne, I think I was wrong about the top of the tender being black (relying on memory!), but the cab roof wasn't painted blue. The cast stick-up numbers were 'silver' rather than brass, but that style didn't last long. On the tender there would have been 'L N E R' in similar stick-up letters (in Gill sans lettering, like the number '24') and although very unclear on the photo, I think the two dark marks just above the driver's elbow are maybe part of the 'R'.
As to children on footplates, an early memory is being at our local station aged about 5; the driver of a halted goods train took me onto the footplate (I think it was a Lancs & Yorks 0-6-0). The brightness of the fire amazed me, and the grinning driver and fireman: "We'll gi' thee a job, Sonny!"
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Gill Sans was the letter font as stated in aluminium or silver letters on the Garter Blue A4s. The cab roof was black (white when working a Royal train ,with white buffer heads, lasted about 10 minutes, white emulsion used quick drying)tender top blue.
Regards footplate riding, I had several trips, both official and otherwise during my railway career. A highlight came in 1959 when I actually drove a B1 class engine. Automatic train control was being introduced on the King's Cross line and all engines which might work into Peterborough or Grantham in our immediate area were fitted with the mechanism. All drivers and passed firemen were trained. Since it was part of my job to process any reports of failures I asked to he trained ( in that era clerical staff were supposed to know everything usually without training and then got kicked hard if we did the job wrong!).This time they agreed and gave me the full works on 61082 (Immingham or Lincoln engine) on the back road at Boston shed completely isolated from all other lines and unde the supervision of a motive power inspector.
The line had also been fitted with the ATC package on the track, and surprise surprise a semaphore signal complete with operator. Distance traveled about 400 yards forwards and reverse . The next time I saw the engine it had just brought strain in from Grimsby driven by my father, so that was the only engine officially driven by 2 generations of my family.