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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Derbyshire => Topic started by: goldie61 on Friday 13 September 19 01:17 BST (UK)
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I understand there is a map of Ashford in the Water from the survey of 1616 by William Senior, which I think shows the names of those who farm the fields etc.
Derbyshire Record Office tell me they are no longer able, (allowed), to produce copies of the black and white copy of the maps they hold.
I see it is included in a book - ‘William Senior's Survey of the Estates of the First and Second Earls of Devonshire c.1600–28’.
Has anybody ever seen this map, or this book, or any of the maps, to know if the map actually does show the tenants names?
Many thanks
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Don't know for sure, but Amazon have a copy (presumably) of a reconstruction of that book:
Survey of the Estates of the First and Second Earls of Devonshire, 1600-28 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Estates-Devonshire-1600-28-Derbyshire-Society/dp/0946324093) Hardcover 1988 by William Senior (Author), D.V. Fowkes (Editor), G. R. Potter (Editor)
At £ 7.87 might be worth a punt.
Alan
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Hi
The book was published by the Derbyshire Record Society, they still have copies for sale but would be cheaper if purchased secondhand from book.
I do have a copy of the book - what is the name of your ancestor?
Please note the book is still in copyright, so cannot give full details but quite happy to confirm if your ancestor is mentioned.
No map of Ashford in the water is included in the book, just details of who was renting land etc from the Devonshire’s.
I think that William Seniors survey and accompanying Atlas are held at Chatsworth House, not Derbyshire RO
Spendlove
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Thanks Spendlove.
I think there should be some of the Heyward/Heyward/Heaward and White/Whyte families in Ashford in 1616.
Does it also cover Hartington and/or Earlsterndale? Rogers family there.
Shame the maps don't show which lands the various tenants held.
I see there is also 'The Welbeck Atlas' from about 1629 onwards, again for the Cavendish family at Chatsworth.
Have you ever seen this?
I think my Finney/Fynney family moved to Ashford about 1629. They won't be in the 1616 I don't think.
Thanks for your help.
Yes, the originals are at Chatsworth, but Derbyshire RO have photocopies, of which they cannot copy (orders from Chatsworth).
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Hi,
Think I have confused you the map/atlas will show which tennant rented which lands, however the map of AIW is not included in this book.
The map/atlas and the survey are two separate items so in the book is given details of the survey, you then find these on the map.
AIW. - Thomas Heiward, George Herward, Edward Heiward, Henry Heiward and another entry for a William Heiward Thelder and Younger (the elder and younger)
The welbeck atlas, I do not have, it can be purchased from the Thornton Society £29.50 + postage, however this does come with full enlargable maps see
http://www.thorotonsociety.org.uk/publications/recordseries/welbeckatlas.htm
Think it may be worth purchasing a copy at £7.87 As quoted previously, you could then use this to find the lands on the copy map held at DRO, if possible for you to travel.
Hope this helps
Spendlove
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Thanks Spendlove.
A whole bunch of Heiwards!
So I have to see the actual MAP to see where these people had their lands?
Either at Chatsworth or Derbyshire RO? And not in the book anyway you're saying?
Neither place is possible I'm afraid as I'm in New Zealand.
Difficult there being a resource I can't get to look at.
Although DRO won't take copies, I guess Chatsworth might
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Hi
Would be surprised if Chatsworth would supply a copy, and even it it would think it would be expensive but would ask if they could supply PDF. This because the images of maps that are in the book are so small very difficult to read.
Just to give you an idea at present it costs £25 a day just to visit the archives at Chatsworth.
DRO are not allowed to supply copies as Chatsworth holds copyright.
Spendlove
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Thanks spendlove
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Hello, there was a Ricardus Fouke listed in the 1381 Poll Tax at Ashford in the Water, and I was wondering if there were any Fouke/Fauke/Fowkes left there by 1616, as I am pretty sure if there were they would be farming the fields in that map, Thank You.
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Hi,
Sorry no Foulk etc., in the whole of the 1600-28 survey.
Spendlove
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Thank You Very Kindly, Spendlove, I do appreciate your effort to help me. Ricardus Fouke being in Ashford in the Water in 1381 made him the earliest Fouke in Derbyshire that I found, obviously by 1616 this family had moved on to "greener pastures". As a matter of fact, I have a probable ancestor Thomas Fouke living in Codnor in 1616, the very year of that survey, so what you did for me provides some confirmation that the Foukes had moved around in Derbyshire during the ensuing centuries since that 1381 Poll Tax, and I am grateful for the additional knowledge!
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hi i have access to the senior map 1617 ashford and another ashford and churchdale. unfortunately i can't see any of those names on the maps
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Message for Goldie61
If you electronically link to my great grandfather's book, Longstone Records published in 1906 by G. T. Wright, you will see references to the Heywards living in Ashford in 1616 on pages 211 and 212.
The link is:-
https://ia804707.us.archive.org/34/items/longstonerecords00wrig/longstonerecords00wrig.pdf
or try in search –
Longstone Records G T Wright California
I have attached the two pages for you. Good luck.
Regards
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Thanks TNP.
It's some time since I was researching in Derbyshire, (this thread is some six years old), so I will have to go back through my notes and see where this fits in, but many thanks for your input.
(The link to the actual book doesn't work - an error message comes up that there's no link to the server, but thanks for the actual images from the book you attached).
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Hi Goldie61,
Thanks for your reply
Try this link for Longstone Records, just taken it off the internet -
https://dn790008.ca.archive.org/0/items/longstonerecords00wrig/longstonerecords00wrig.pdf
A Robert Heyward also on page 214.
Good luck
Many thanks
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I have seen what is probably a similar map by William Senior for a manor in south Yorkshire, dated 1615. At that period most fields were still unenclosed, being farmed in a late version of the open field system. A tenant's land would be scattered across the township in a large number of narrow strips in various large fields, nominally 1 acre each, but in practice quite variable. There would also be areas of Common occupying the less productive land, where each would have the right to graze a certain number of animals. The map I have seen is relatively small, but contains a name and acreage on every strip, meticulously compiled.
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Thanks MollyC
William Senior was a mathematician and surveyor commissioned by William Cavendish at Chatsworth for his lands in his ownership. (William Cavendish became the 1st Earl, not Duke, of Devonshire in 1618). He surveyed from 1600 to 1640 private estates within a dozen English counties totalling over 285000 acres (445 square miles). He produced written surveys, (terriers), and over 150 maps, the equivalent of a minor Domesday Book for the early 17th century.
Interested to note your comment that the fields shown in strips were largely unenclosed during that period. Certainly no past evidence of any strip fields today for the village of Great Longstone near Bakewell in Derbyshire. None apparent on the Longstone Hall Estate Survey of 1770 in Longstone Records.
It's incredible how meticulous William Senior was in recording the acreage, roods and perches of each parcel of land as well as the names of tenants or owners in his terriers.
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I think the open field system was never as extensive in upland areas, because a larger proportion of the land was only suitable for grazing, and also the practicalities of moving about the landscape with ploughs etc. However, looking at the OS 1st ed. 6-inch map c1875, there are numerous small fields suggesting piecemeal enclosure, probably at an early date; e.g. in Taddington, west of Great Longstone, where there are remnants of ploughing curves preserved in boundaries to the east and north of the village, but Taddington Moor to the west is a later landscape of enclosed common, crossed by a wide enclosure road.
Georeferenced Maps viewer - Map images - National Library of Scotland (nls.uk) (https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15.0&lat=53.23259&lon=-1.77415&layers=6&b=ESRIWorld&o=100)
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MollyC
Many thanks for your observations.