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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: gayenz on Thursday 12 September 19 03:19 BST (UK)
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Hi and hoping someone has a great knowledge of the Australian Navy in the 1950's.
Attached is a copy of the navy record for xyz - 1950-1956.
I am specifically requiring clarification between the time aboard the Penguin 5 Nov 1951 until his discharge in 1956.
I understand he was aboard the HMAS Penguin (became the Condamine) and sailed in Australian waters and off Korea until April 1953 when the ship returned to Sydney for a refit.
He applied for a discharge 25 Sep 1953 but it was denied. Why would that happen?
The records then show he was aboard the HMAS Kuttabul / Rushcutter from Jul 1953 - Sep 1954. I can't find any details about these ships at this time.
He was then finally FREE on 9 Oct 1956. What would he have done between Sep 1954 and Oct 1956?
Could some kind soul help clarify my interpretation please?
Thanks
Gaye
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Hi and hoping someone has a great knowledge of the Australian Navy in the 1950's.
Attached is a copy of the navy record for xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx - 1950-1956.
I am specifically requiring clarification between the time aboard the Penguin 5 Nov 1951 until his discharge in 1956.
I understand he was aboard the HMAS Penguin (became the Condamine) and sailed in Australian waters and off Korea until April 1953 when the ship returned to Sydney for a refit.
He applied for a discharge 25 Sep 1953 but it was denied. Why would that happen?
The records then show he was aboard the HMAS Kuttabul / Rushcutter from Jul 1953 - Sep 1954. I can't find any details about these ships at this time.
He was then finally FREE on 9 Oct 1956. What would he have done between Sep 1954 and Oct 1956?
Could some kind soul help clarify my interpretation please?
Thanks
Gaye
http://soda.naa.gov.au/record/4548177/1 Here is a live link to the two pages of his service record. You have only attached the second page.
At the first page you will notice he signed on for SIX years, from 15 Oct 1950, so he was not eligible for a discharge until 1956... :)
The Royal Australian Navy was at war in 1953 as part of the British Commonwealth contingent serving in the Korean War. An Armistice was signed in July of that year.
http://www.navy.gov.au/history/feature-histories/korean-war
Can you confirm he died in 1959 please.
JM
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Rushcutter_(naval_base) as in Rushcutters Bay, Sydney.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Kuttabul_(naval_base) as in Potts Point, Sydney.
http://www.navy.gov.au/establishments/hmas-kuttabul still at Potts Point, Sydney.
JM
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http://www.navy.gov.au/establishments/hmas-cerberus HMAS Cereberus is also noted on that second page of his service record.
JM
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Thank you for having a look. I had page 1 but didn't want to add it as it wasn't the focus of the question but you are absolutely correct in pointing out that he signed up for 6 years. So you are suggesting that he wanted EARLY discharge?
It would make sense as he had met someone.
Thank you for the naval base postings as well. It makes sense.
Do you know where else one might find more detailed navy personel records please?
Thanks
Gaye
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Can you please confirm that he is no longer living ...
JM
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Date of death, I am not sure as i have him living in Nyngan, New South Wales in 1980. I do not know sorry.
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Date of death, I am not sure as i have him living in Nyngan, New South Wales in 1980. I do not know sorry.
So you do not know if he is no longer living, but you have clearly identified him in your opening post.
JM R2M 1337 HRS NSW 12 Sept 2019.
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You are correct, I apologise.
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Sorry, but could you please tell me what I need to do to change this or delete the post. I did not mean to offend anybody.
Thank you
Regards
Gaye
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Hi Gaye,
It is against our rules to publish information on folk that are living, date of birth marriage etc, these are often security questions.
Regards
Sarah
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Sarah,
The trouble is, those records are no longer confidential, they are freely available for anyone to download from the National Archive of Australia.
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Sarah,
The trouble is, those records are no longer confidential, they are freely available for anyone to download from the National Archive of Australia.
BUT .... the NAA does not oblige us to publish the identifying names of t he RAN personnel. RChat threads can be very easily found via google search of key words. NAA individual files cannot be found that way.
Using the soda option that the NAA website provides is the option that avoids publishing the identifying names.
Publishing the info includes putting the names in either the topic heading or the post itself ....
There is a huge difference in the outcome when googling an individual's name....
JM.
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I quite agree, I was simply pointing out that the records are freely available, unlike those of our own service personnel.
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I quite agree, I was simply pointing out that the records are freely available, unlike those of our own service personnel.
Sorry, but .... the vast majority of Australian service personnel records are NOT freely available.
Some of the Royal Australian Navy ones were part of a digital funding program because they were initially on CARD which had been archived properly, so easy to process. Some RAAF forms were processed as part of that too.
Far more Australians served in the Army, and for those who served in WWII or more recently, there are fees charged and permissions required or confirmation the person of interest is deceased before the digitisation even commences.
Back in the early 2000s the bulk of one main series of the Australian Imperial Force papers for WWI were digitised, and federal funding of the files that had not already been funded by individual members of the general public, was found.
Current fees for digitisation are about $75 Au, but the Australian Defence Force can withhold approval.
The NAA Record Collection of Defence files is extensive, and not all personnel files are indexed, nor are all indexes available on line.
JM.
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Isn't the digitisation ongoing? Years ago I looked for my grandfather's WW2 naval service records - they had not been digitised. I returned some time later to find that they had been. I did not request this nor did I pay any money.
Whist doing research for friends and more distant family such as a brother-in-law, I have found several of their relatives digitised WW2 army records viewable online. To my knowledge no one paid for the digitisation or for the records to be 'opened'.
I believe there are various fee structures if you wish to obtain physical copies. I have not looked into it enough to know if the digital copies of the service records are exactly the same as the printed records.
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This is possibly his father’s death:
FENTON. Hector Lumsden - July 14. 1986. at hospital, late of Woy Wov. beloved husband of Edna (deceased), loving father and father-in-law of D.... and L.... G...... and C...., loved grandfather and great-grandfather of their families.
If it is then his son was still living.
Jamjar
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FENTON. Edna May. - July 10 1985 at hospital late of Woy Woy beloved wife of Hector loving mother and mother-in-law of D.... and L... G...... and C.... loved grandmother and great-grandmother of their families and fond sister of I... E..... M... G.... and L...
FENTON. - The relatives and friends of the late EDNA MAY FENTON, of Woy Woy are invited to attend her funeral service, to be held in the chapel of the Palmdale Crematorium. Palmdale Road. Ounmbah. today (Friday) at 3 pm, PALMDALE FUNERAL SERVICE OURIMBAH 043 62 1203
Jamjar
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Thank you Jamjar
I agree with those notices. There was a letter dated 2 years later (1987) written by the son requesting a Service record for his father. These records for both father and son were found digitised on NAA.
So it is quite possible that he is still alive.
Thank you for your interest
Gaye
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Re Ruskie's thoughts ... The funding for the NAA is from the Commonwealth and there's the usual annual 'efficiency' thingy in the federal budget so its reducing the funding, so less and less ongoing funding is available for the digitisation programs.
The WWII AIF service records are not yet funded as a gift to the nation .... some Unit Associations have funded some files where they become aware of the death of a member.
These comments passed to me today from one of my ancient living rellies ... a retired Archivist, albeit via NSW Mitchell (State)Library when it was also the NSW Archives, then to NLA Canberra ... and he ought to join RChat...
JM
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Thanks JM.
There is no payment required to view any already digitised records though. To open any closed records there is a cost. I do not know if any proof of service person's death or proof of relationship is required to obtain service records. Would those then be digitised and put on the NAA site? Does anyone know?
It would also be interesting to know how many they have already 'done' and how many still need to be 'done'. I understand that there are budget restrictions/reductions.
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I feel sure that no one would object to this sidetrack re digitisation projects at the NAA...
http://www.naa.gov.au/information-management/digital-transition-and-digital-continuity/digital-continuity-2020/index.aspx
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/a-z/researching-war-service.aspx
https://www.gouldgenealogy.com/2019/05/1-million-australian-wwii-records-to-be-digitised-and-free/
About 80 per cent of the 1,062,000 WWII service records are yet to be digitised in the National Archives of Australia, and with next year marking the 75th anniversary of the end of WWII, the government said that it wanted ‘to ensure Australians can remember and understand the service and sacrifice of those who came before us’.
The digitised records will be freely available to all Australians, and will provide a ‘comprehensive source of information’ for students, journalists, authors, academics and families interested in knowing about the services of the Australian Defence Force.
:D :D :D
JM
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Thanks JM. I will have a proper read of those links later when I have more time.
Noting that only 20% have been digitised so far, I have been very lucky to find as many as I have. :)
I am sure digitisation if the records is not a priority, and a prime target for budget cuts. :-\
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Sarah,
The trouble is, those records are no longer confidential, they are freely available for anyone to download from the National Archive of Australia.
That maybe so Jebber, But it is still against RootsChat rules to research and publish details on living folk.
Regards
Sarah
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If you read my second post on the subject Sarah, I was not advocating the right to publish names of the living on here, I was simply pointing out the differences in access to service records between Australia and the UK.
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If you read my second post on the subject Sarah, I was not advocating the right to publish names of the living on here, I was simply pointing out the differences in access to service records between Australia and the UK.
And
Sarah,
The trouble is, those records are no longer confidential, they are freely available for anyone to download from the National Archive of Australia.
Sorry Jebber, but it seems to me that to download the service records you actually need to know that they have been digitised, .... only 20% have been, and mostly that has been funded by the payment of fees by individuals to the NAA and as a direct consequence of that payment the NAA's usual delivery method includes uploading to their website.
Then for anyone to find the individual file you need to actually already know the individual name of the person ....
So the NAA system is carefully crafted to not provide a published digitised set of an individual's war service, and it has collected a fee or been funded for the digitisation ... may I assure you that it can take about three months for the individual process from paying fee to accessing a file. If you are applying for a file you need to be either the named person or confirm that that person is deceased.
I understand that the UK MOD has a process involving fees, and conditions to access their holdings too. In Australia the ADF (Australian Defence Force) uses the NAA to archive their historic holdings.
So I cannot see where there is any conflict between RChat rules and the digitised records of the NAA....
I think what was confuddling me are the expressions 'the trouble is', 'no longer confidential' and 'freely available' ...
JM
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JM
“The trouble is” and “Freely available” meant that anyone can search for a record on the NAA website, and was reference to the fact that as a lot of the records are available, some people may not realise it is inappropriate to publish the name on open websites.
Of course you would need to know the name to search for an individual file, but then why would anyone look for unknown person, what would be the point?
The difference with the UK MOD held records, only the person concerned can apply for the records of the living. Next of kin can apply for the records of someone who died within the last 25 years, on production of a death certificate (unless they died in service). Anyone else is supposed to have the consent of the next of kin, although I believe that can rule can be relaxed for other close kin.