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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Bherbe on Wednesday 11 September 19 10:31 BST (UK)
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I was hoping to get a more experienced perspective please on whether anyone has seen one couple marrying twice before. This seems to have happened with Evan EVANS and Edith Mary JOLLIFFE. There is a marriage entry for them on the 28th February 1908 in Cardiff, Glamorgan and then again on 23rd February 1909 in Devizes, Wiltshire. I have the certificate for the Cardiff marriage and the online image of the Register for the Devizes marriage and the details seem to match up but does anyone have any ideas as to why they would do this and even if it would have been legal? The simple answer might be that the groom was Welsh from Glamorgan and the bride was originally from Devizes but this happens often in family history and I have never seen two separate marriage entries. Thanks very much for any input.
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Hi was Evan Evans in the Military
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Hi MargP, interesting that you should ask that - I don't know - but have been trying to answer that very question this morning! I only know that he is described as a Civil Engineer almost exclusively on any record I have for him (sometimes just civil engineer as on the marriage records, 1911 Taff Vale Railway and 1939 "Roads and Railways" in Cardiff). Locating an Evan EVANS in military records is definitely proving to be time consuming but, serving in WW1, for example, would help me narrow down where he may have been 1914-1918, which would help me with other lines of enquiry that I have. Would a military connection have made a difference to the two marriages? I also googled this issue and someone had commented that they didn't want the one side of the family to know that they had already been married so wanted to "stage" a second marriage - perhaps this happened here....
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I see from the Devices marriage (online) that two Joliffes were witnesses.
I wonder if any family members witnessed the Cardiff marriage, or could it have been carried out more secretively?
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Betty Margaret Evans born 25 Dec 1913
Baptism 5 Jul 1914 Devizes, St John the Baptist, Wiltshire
Father: Evan Evans, civil engineer. Mother: Edith Mary
abode :Loestan Whitchurch Cardiff
As for locating Army Records for an Evan Evans - what about checking his signature from his 1909 marriage against any records you find and his address from bpt. record
Edit - death of dau
Bettie Margaret Evans Age: 87. Birth Date: 25 Dec 1913
Registration Date: Jun 2001 Cardiff
Register Number: D29B District and Subdistrict: 8901D Entry Number: 75
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Edward Jolliffe Evans Birth 25 Jan 1910
Baptism 27 Mar 1910 Devizes, St John the Baptist, Wiltshire
Father: Evan Evans, civil engineer Mother: Edith Mary
Abode Leostan, The Avenue Whitchurch
Edit - his death entry
Edward Jolliffe Evans died age 86 born 25 Jan 1910
Jul 1996 Cardiff Register Number: C2B District and Subdistrict: 8901C Entry Number: 79
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Hi MargP, interesting that you should ask that - I don't know - but have been trying to answer that very question this morning! I only know that he is described as a Civil Engineer almost exclusively on any record I have for him (sometimes just civil engineer as on the marriage records, 1911 Taff Vale Railway and 1939 "Roads and Railways" in Cardiff). Locating an Evan EVANS in military records is definitely proving to be time consuming but, serving in WW1, for example, would help me narrow down where he may have been 1914-1918, which would help me with other lines of enquiry that I have. Would a military connection have made a difference to the two marriages? I also googled this issue and someone had commented that they didn't want the one side of the family to know that they had already been married so wanted to "stage" a second marriage - perhaps this happened here....
Yes I have seen this before where a man in the Army did not did not get permission too married and at a later date married the same person with permission from the Army
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Were they both Church weddings or Register Office and Church?
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I see from the Devices marriage (online) that two Joliffes were witnesses.
I wonder if any family members witnessed the Cardiff marriage, or could it have been carried out more secretively?
Hi Lily M, thanks for the reply - the witnesses on the Cardiff marriage entry are not family that I know of ("Robert Hyde" and "B. Lewis Hopkins") whereas with the Wiltshire marriage, as you point out, the witnesses were family - brother and sister of the bride.
With reference also to the reply from hanes Teulu, the Cardiff marriage was in the Register Office, while the Wiltshire marriage was by Banns at St John the Baptist, Devizes, Wiltshire... so the Cardiff marriage might have been a less formal, "quick", possibly secret, marriage I suppose. I have not been able to find a child born to them until 1910 but perhaps I should have looked under her maiden name - I will look again. Thank you.
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Hi Ladyhawk,
Thanks so much for all the info and tips. I have been working through the military records trying to tie in an address/location but have not been looking at the signature so far. You have also made me realise something else - thank you - I was trying to place Evan EVANS in and around Swindon, Wiltshire during the war years and your posts reminded me to check their children again. I believe one of their children was born in 1917 and the birth was registered in Devizes, Wiltshire. I have not found a baptism record for this child but if I order the birth record it might give me more of a clue about where they were living at this time. I believe they also had another two children after this in 1920 (possibly twins) but the birth dates leave a slim chance they may still be alive so I haven't included details. I appreciate all the input.
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Yes I have seen this before where a man in the Army did not did not get permission too married and at a later date married the same person with permission from the Army
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That is interesting MargP - thank you. It might be worth me looking for a possible military connection even earlier than 1914 then.
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I believe one of their children was born in 1917 and the birth was registered in Devizes, Wiltshire. I have not found a baptism record for this child but if I order the birth record it might give me more of a clue about where they were living at this time.
Second Lieutenant EVANS, DOUGLAS ALBAN ST. JOHN
Service Number 77822
Died 31/05/1940
Aged 23
246 Field Coy.
Royal Engineers
Mentioned in Despatches
Son of Evan and Edith Mary Evans; husband of C Evans, of Shirehampton, Bristol. B.Sc., Eng. (Lond.).
link - https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2775045/evans,-douglas-alban-st.-john/
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/12735647
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I believe one of their children was born in 1917 and the birth was registered in Devizes, Wiltshire. I have not found a baptism record for this child but if I order the birth record it might give me more of a clue about where they were living at this time.
Second Lieutenant EVANS, DOUGLAS ALBAN ST. JOHN
Service Number 77822
Died 31/05/1940
Aged 23
246 Field Coy.
Royal Engineers
Mentioned in Despatches
Son of Evan and Edith Mary Evans; husband of C Evans, of Shirehampton, Bristol. B.Sc., Eng. (Lond.).
link - https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2775045/evans,-douglas-alban-st.-john/
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/12735647
That is indeed him! Thanks Ladyhawk - I had nothing on him other than his birth registration and this information gives me a number of leads - much appreciated - I have placed the order at GRO as well.
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They announced the 1909 marriage in the local papers
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3434648/3434654/121/jolliffe%20AND%20evans
I guess the permission to marry thing may have been an issue - even from his employers. My grandfather had to get permission from his bosses in 1932, by which time he was in his late 30s and a bank manager!
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The Western Mail, 18 Jun 1940, carried a report of his death -
"Lieut. Douglas St. John Evans, age 23, second son of Mr & Mrs Evan Evans, Bishop's Road, Whitchurch, nephew of the late William Evans J.P., and Mrs Evans, Bronwydd, Porth.....Married and had a baby son"
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http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4607696/4607704/67/
Evan Evans, Snr, death notice
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The cemetery records page for the cemetery where Lieut. Douglas St. John Evans was buried interested me for the number of Guardsmen and Royal Engineers interred there - my father was a Royal Engineer in WW2 (though he survived) and in several years of visiting cemeteries I have never noticed a number of Royal Engineers as there are here and all killed on 29-31st May 1940. It seems that the action in which they were all killed was when these men were acting as a rearguard during the legendary evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force from Dunkirk, holding bridges on the canals to hold back the German troops and allow other servicemen to cross on their way to the beaches at Dunkirk. And then blowing the bridges to delay the enemy, a job, no doubt for the engineers which might account for the numbers present and killed. Although I could not immediately find any Royal Engineers' battalion diaries for those dates, I did find this book which gives a detailed record of those dates for each of the guards battalions involved (several of whom were also buried in this cemetery). Though there is no mention of the Royal Engineers it does give a glimpse of the desperate efforts to hold the line to allow the evacuation and later the retreat of the remaining troops.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015048995396;view=2up;seq=74;skin=mobile
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The Western Mail, 18 Jun 1940, carried a report of his death -
"Lieut. Douglas St. John Evans, age 23, second son of Mr & Mrs Evan Evans, Bishop's Road, Whitchurch, nephew of the late William Evans J.P., and Mrs Evans, Bronwydd, Porth.....
Married and had a baby son"
How very sad for the whole family, so young, married Bristol 1939 C Walters, their son's birth entry Bristol 1940 P St J Evans mn Walters, and his death 1999 Peter St John Evans born 18 Feb 1940
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The cemetery records page for the cemetery where Lieut. Douglas St. John Evans was buried interested me for the number of Guardsmen and Royal Engineers interred there - my father was a Royal Engineer in WW2 (though he survived) and in several years of visiting cemeteries I have never noticed a number of Royal Engineers as there are here and all killed on 29-31st May 1940. It seems that the action in which they were all killed was when these men were acting as a rearguard during the legendary evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force from Dunkirk, holding bridges on the canals to hold back the German troops and allow other servicemen to cross on their way to the beaches at Dunkirk. And then blowing the bridges to delay the enemy, a job, no doubt for the engineers which might account for the numbers present and killed. Although I could not immediately find any Royal Engineers' battalion diaries for those dates, I did find this book which gives a detailed record of those dates for each of the guards battalions involved (several of whom were also buried in this cemetery). Though there is no mention of the Royal Engineers it does give a glimpse of the desperate efforts to hold the line to allow the evacuation and later the retreat of the remaining troops.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015048995396;view=2up;seq=74;skin=mobile
Hi Rowleyrosie, thanks for the link - I will have a good look. I stumbled across an old thread from WW2 Talk that seems to imply he may have been shot by a British Officer from another battalion - potentially for "retreating" without orders to do so. I have read the whole thread but not being an expert by any means in anything military, a lot went over my head. I think the situation was dire (understatement!), with many officers having been killed, and without leadership the men were withdrawing. An officer from another battalion was sent to see what was happening and shot DASJ Evans (?) and turned the other men around at the point of a bayonet! I have asked for further help from one of the knowledgeable posters there to see if he can make it clearer for me. I expect the whole scenario was completely terrifying and unimaginable - being stuck there in all that chaos and knowing you have a wife and baby son at home....
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Thanks everyone for the Newspaper links as well - I have been going through the Welsh Newspapers Online for earlier family but hadn't got any of these. I did find a death announcement for DASJ EVANS though with a lovely photo - always nice to see a face.
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Oh, what an unbearable waste that would have been, if so. And the information Ladyhawk found says that he had been mentioned in despatches, so he was not a coward.
The Guards War Diaries refer to the number of officers lost and the chaos and of someone having to be put temporarily in charge. We hear a lot about what happened on the beaches, what was going on behind them must, as you say, have been terrifying. Sobering to read even all these years later.