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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: liznjohn2011 on Sunday 01 September 19 23:23 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
Im hoping for a bit of help!
I was checking through the scanned pics of the 1861 census for Berwick-Upon-Tweed looking for mis transcriptions of Trainer. I came across an entry which iv not seen before, transcribed listed as..
Roar Philips Head F wid 80 (not sure what the next bit is) and Born at sea
Elisabeth Philips Daug F mar 27 Berwick
Agnes Barclay G Daug F 6 Scotland
Catharin Crammond G Daug F 11 Berwick
Elisabeth Trainer G Daug F 1 Berwick
can anyone work out any of this? ??? ???
Iv had a look on GRO for Elisabeth Trainer's birth, but im only getting 1 found with mother listed as Hope, I know who this 1 is in the family. I dont recognise any of the other names listed above.
Here is the link on Ancestry if it helps? fingers crossed!
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8767/NBLRG9_3886_3889-0033?pid=13085922&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db%3Duki1861%26indiv%3Dtry%26h%3D13085922&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.123180811.1890524281.1567355409-1550288747.1567355409#?imageId=NBLRG9_3886_3889-0044
Many thanks
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Have you looked on the 1851 for the Philips?
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I did click each name but there wasn't any links 'hints' showing up for any of the names.
Iv just checked 1851 with no luck of those names atm. Will probably go through each picture for Berwick 1851 census, will be a job for tomorrow
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The head of household 'Roar' has his occupation as Hawker of cloth.
Agnes Barclay's birthplace is Berwick not Scotland.
If Elisabeth is down as being married then either she married a man whose surname was also Phillips or it should be Barclay or Trainer. Catharine Crammond was born in Scotland. The younger Elisabeth was also born in Berwick as was the older one stated as daughter to 'Roar'.
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On Freecen website 'Roar' has been transcribed as Rose …..and she is a Hawker of cloth.
Catharine Crammond is born in Scotland
Agnes Barclay is born in Berwick.
Looby :)
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Searching for Catharine Crammond on Family Search turned up this -
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7KD-N1Z
This transcription has the two older women transcribed with the surname Hay ??? and not Phillips.
Looby :)
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The head of household 'Roar' has his occupation as Hawker of cloth.
age of "roar" is in female column
was going to suggest Rose but was beaten to it
Searching for Catharine Crammond on Family Search turned up this -
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7KD-N1Z
This transcription has the two older women transcribed with the surname Hay ??? and not Phillips.
Looby :)
Its a bad transcription - the neighbours are Hay
Suz
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This looks a possible for the younger Elisabeth's birth
TRAINER, ELIZABETH HOPE
GRO Reference: 1860 D Quarter in BERWICK UPON TWEED UNION Volume 10B Page 295
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Searching for Catharine Crammond on Family Search turned up this -
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7KD-N1Z
This transcription has the two older women transcribed with the surname Hay ??? and not Phillips.
Looby :)
Its a bad transcription - the neighbours are Hay
Suz
That makes sense . Was puzzled as to how the name Phillips could be mistaken for Hay.
Looby :)
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Yes that's the birth entry I had came across aswel, I know who that Elizabeth Is, but iv never seen the other names connected with the family before now.
Think I will need to go through the earlier census tomorrow.
Thank you everyone for having a look and adding suggestions
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1841
Ness Berwick Northumberland
Rose Phillips 45 ( S crossed through)
Ann 20 S
Robert 15 S
Sarah 14 S
William 11 N
Elizabeth 9 N
David 5 N
William 3 N
HO107 8 44 12 16
Suz
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This looks a possible for the younger Elisabeth's birth
TRAINER, ELIZABETH HOPE
GRO Reference: 1860 D Quarter in BERWICK UPON TWEED UNION Volume 10B Page 295
this one could be the daughter of James Nelson Trainer and Elener Elizabeth on 1871 census is 10 1861 she is 5 mths
Suz
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In 1861 'Roar' (believed Rose or variants) is 80 and dies as Rosina Phillips aged 85 in Mar.qtr.1864 Berwick. However, either her age has been 'inflated' or she is not the mother of Elizabeth Phillips 27 as she would have been 50+.
I believe I've found her in 1851 in Kelso, Roxburghshire:
Alexander Watson 26 Chimney Sweeper born Kelso
Anne Watson 31 born England
Phillis Watson 2 born Kelso
Sarah 0 ditto
plus the following 'visitors'
Rosana Philips Wid. 66 born England
E. Ormond Mar. 20 Hawker ditto
William Philips 12 born Kelso
Anne Barkley 7 born Berwick on Tweed
Sarah Linden 16 House servant ditto
Cathrane Ormond 1 born Kelso
With so many coincidences here - and assuming 1841 census details are correct - was Anne Watson previously Phillips, was E Ormond the Elizabeth Phillips from 1861, was Anne Barkley from the same family as Agnes Barclay in 1861, and was Cathrane Ormond 1 the same person as Catherine Crammond in 1861???
Needless to say, I can't find any relevant birth/baptism/marriage details. However, with Hawker being stated again were the family gypsy's? All I could establish was that Phillis and Sarah Watson were in Kelso Union Poorhouse in 1861 together with a Helen Watson aged 6 (perhaps a younger sister). Had parents Alexander and Anne died?
The only other thing I could find was that a Nancy Phillips bp.28/2/1819 Berwick upon Tweed, daughter of Thomas and Rosana - could this have been 'Anne'?
Annette
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I thought I'd have a go at this. Assuming that Elizabeth is the one born Berwick district 1860 MMN Hope, she is surely a daughter of James N Trainer b Berwick and "Elenor" b Tweedmouth. They are consistently found on the 1861, '71 and '81 at Berwick Town Hall where he is a "Keeper of Lock-up" with (in '71) prisoners to prove it. Moreover, there is an Elizabeth Trainer, daughter on all 3 censuses and in '61 she is 5 months old, which fits her birth reg.
I found this family in all censuses bar '51 - even in '41 with just eldest Mary, and '91 where Elenor is a widow, still with daughters unwed Mary, and Sarah Gibson and family. I can't find a Trainer-Hope marriage reg - before 1837, or in Scotland? - but all the children have MMN Hope including some in the gaps who presumably died.
The 1861 record of an Elizabeth Trainer in the Phillips household seems to be a complete red herring - no other record found for her, birth or census - but, as Annette found, that seems to be usual for that family.
Unless.......... this is a double-counting which sometimes happens. I have a couple of cases in my tree (the relative counted where they happened to be, but also where they usually lived). If this is likely, LiznJohn, is there a side of this family where you haven't traced back? Starting with the thought that Rose Phillips might be her great-grandmother, which would allow her to have a daughter who married a Trainer or a Hope. After all, she seems to have descendants with quite a variety of surnames.