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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: rob g on Thursday 15 August 19 14:18 BST (UK)
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Hi. Haven't been here for a while. A relative asked me something about a shared ancestor. Robert dodd. B. Ireland. And here it gets confusing. He's down with lots of different birth dates. All Ireland. And dates taken In mainly Ulverston Lancashire. I have him in 1851 census b.1820.. in. 1881 census. Estimated b 1811..and imprisoned. In 1860. B.1808. Also his wife Margaret. Born Ulverston Lancashire. In 1815. And On 1881 census. She seems to have different birth dates too. Seems to be a bad lot. He's in court. 5th nov 1863. For throwing a object at his wife Margaret. And splitting her head..they had both been in court 6th may 1858 for stealing game. He has a long criminal record. His son Robert dodd. B. 1841 was even worse.. nearly killing my g.g. grandmother. Sarah. Dodd. Whilst pregnant! spending time on prison hulks. I'm looking for information on Margaret dodd. My 3 times grandmother.her maiden name. Etc. And more on Robert dodd. B..1815???or about. I can't find him in some of the censuses. I only have 1851. When he is with his brother in law James Smith in Ulverston. And 1881 cencus Ulverston. I know he came from Ireland. And he was a.bad un. But would love to know more. Regards rob
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In one Census Robert is with his Smith In Laws.
Is this them in 1851 born Westmorland
1851 Census
Robert Dodd 30
Margt Dodd 36
Ann Dodd 17
John Dodd 13
James Dodd 11
Robert Dodd 3
Ellen Dodd 1 mth
DODD, ELLEN, Mothers maiden name SMITH****
GRO Reference: 1851 J Quarter in THE PRESTON UNION Volume 21 Page 729
DODD, ROBERT, Mothers mn SMITH**
GRO Reference: 1848 J Quarter in ULVERSTONE UNION Volume 25 Page 230
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Ok bear with me here!
Marriage Reg;
Sept 1845 Ulverston 25 199
Robert DODD/Margaret PARK on same page.
I though this may be a second Marriage as there was a gap in Childrens ages 1851 Census.
Margaret may be a Widow, mn Smith.
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This seems to be Margaret and 1st 3 children in Ulverston in 1841 Census;
Margaret Park 30 Lodging House Keeper
Ann Park 6
John Park 3
James Park 1
There is a Smith Family next door,
Could Robert be enumerated twice in 1851?
1851 we have;
James Smith 29
Mary Smith 29
John Smith 6
James Smith 4
Thos Smith 18 mths
Thos Smith 25
John Greenwood 22
James Ashton 21
Robert Dodd 31 Brother in Law Mar Labourer born Ireland********
Now a correction has James as James ATHERSMITH and there is this Marriage;
09 Apr 1831, Lancaster, Lancashire
Margaret ATHERSMITH to Thomas PARK
James was christened 26 Aug 1822 Ulverston to JOHN/MARY Arrowsmith
1841 Margaret Park is living next to John/Mary Smith
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FreeBMD;
Deaths Sep 1840
Park Thomas Ulverstone 25 110
GRO has him as age 31***
Baptisms Ulverston
JOHN Park 1838 (no date given)
JAMES Park 12 Apr 1840 (birth 12 April 1840)
Parents THOMAS/MARGARET
Possible for ANNE Park 30 Nov 1834 Egton-with-Newland + MARY Park same place 11 Aug 1833
to THOMAS/MARGARET
(F/S.Org)
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Just looking thru. Your kind replies trish. Its mystery within mystery trying to work it out. Certainly gives me a bone to chew. And more questions. I've only got a smart phone.lol so not that easy.lol. however bad they both were. My g.grandmother gave her eldest son his name Robert.? And its passed father to fir son for six generations.
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Robert dodd. B. Ireland. And here it gets confusing. He's down with lots of different birth dates. All Ireland. And dates taken In mainly Ulverston Lancashire. I have him in 1851 census b.1820.. in. 1881 census. Estimated b 1811..and imprisoned. In 1860. B.1808.
It wasn't unusual for person born early 19th century not to have known their real age. This was even more likely for people born in Ireland. Generally speaking, the age a person gave when a young adult was likely to be nearer the actual age than an age they claimed in later life. When he was in prison it may have suited him to be thought older than he was, perhaps in order to avoid hard labour.
Ages of some of my Irish ancestors born c.1810 - c.1850 were a decade or so out on census returns.
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Now a correction has James as James ATHERSMITH and there is this Marriage;
09 Apr 1831, Lancaster, Lancashire
Margaret ATHERSMITH to Thomas PARK
James was christened 26 Aug 1822 Ulverston to JOHN/MARY Arrowsmith
Thomas ATHERSMITH was baptised at St. Mary, Ulverston on 7th Sept. 1828; parents John & Mary, abode Ulverston. John's occupation was nailer.
Sarah ATHERSMITH, aged 1 was buried at St. Mary, Ulverston on 5th August 1821. Abode Ulverston. No parents named.
Transcriptions on Lancashire Online Parish Clerks. www.lan-opc.org.uk/Ulverston/index.html
LAN-OPC has registers for St. Mary, Ulverston only until 1841.
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Following on from reply #7. More baptisms to parents John & Mary ARROWSMITH at St. Mary, Ulverston:
1818 John and Mary (twins)
17th Sept. 1820 Sarah*
1822 James (previously posted by Trish)
20th Feb. 1825 Sarah
Abode for all was Ulverston and John's occupation was nailer.
*She was probably Sarah who was buried August 1821. (Reply #7)
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A marriage to consider.
St. Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, 20th May 1816
John ATHERSMITH, Leigh Parish, nailer
Mary HARTLEY (X), widow, Leigh Parish
Married by licence
www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/index.html
There are also ARROWSMITH entries in registers of St. Mary the Virgin, Leigh. Occupations of the Arrowsmith men were weaver and farmer. There was a John & Mary Ann ARROWSMITH.
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Could this have been John ATHERSMITH/ARROWSMITH?
Burial 10th April 1847 St. Mary, Lancaster
John HARROWSMITH, age 53; abode County Asylum
Notes: Interned (should that be interred?) at Asylum
(Lancashire Online Parish Clerks)
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FreeBMD;
Deaths Sep 1840
Park Thomas Ulverstone 25 110
GRO has him as age 31***
Baptisms Ulverston
JOHN Park 1838 (no date given)
JAMES Park 12 Apr 1840 (birth 12 April 1840)
Parents THOMAS/MARGARET
Possible for ANNE Park 30 Nov 1834 Egton-with-Newland + MARY Park same place 11 Aug 1833
to THOMAS/MARGARET
(F/S.Org)
From Lancashire Online Parish Clerks:
St. Mary, Ulverston, burial 28thSept. 1840. Thomas Park, age 33, abode Ulverston.
Details on baptisms: Abode for all except John was Bowstead (or Boustead) Gates/Yeats. Father's occupation was swiller.
John baptised 4th March 1838, abode Ulverston; father's occupation swiller & basket-maker.
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Lancashire Courts of Quarter Sessions.
S - Quarter Sessions: The Court in Session
P - Petitions
3415 - Lancaster: Midsummer 1852
Repository
Lancashire Archives
Level
Item
Reference number
QSP/3415/12
Title
Certificate of expenses of several named witnesses in case against Robert Dodd and Thomas Athersmith
Date
26 May 1852
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There's also a newspaper report from 1846
Ulverston.—May 15. Before W. Gale, Esq. Robert Dodd, and Margaret his wife, Mary Athersmith (mother to the wife) /b], Ellen M'Ginnes, wife of James M'Ginnes, and Ann M'Leod, wife of James M'Leod, tinkers, were brought ...
Published: Saturday 23 May 1846 Newspaper: Westmorland Gazette I don't subscribe, so can't see the full extract.
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The article states that they were all of Ratten Row,Ulverston.
There are quite a few references to Robert Dodd in the Kendal Mercury and Westmorland Gazette, mainly regarding felonies. In addition the Kendal Mercury has this :
12 July 1845
Marriages
At the Registrar's Office,Ulverston,on the 10th instant, ...Mr Robert Dodd to Mrs Margaret Park...of Ulverston.
William
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1861 Census
Margaret Dodd 47
Ann Millers 27
Margaret Millers 3
Jacob Millers 5
William Miller 11/12
Marriage;
Ann Park
24 Apr 1854, Ulverston
Father: Thomas Park
Spouse: Jacob Miller
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There's also a newspaper report from 1846
Ulverston.—May 15. Before W. Gale, Esq. Robert Dodd, and Margaret his wife, Mary Athersmith (mother to the wife) /b], Ellen M'Ginnes, wife of James M'Ginnes, and Ann M'Leod, wife of James M'Leod, tinkers, were brought ...
Published: Saturday 23 May 1846 Newspaper: Westmorland Gazette I don't subscribe, so can't see the full extract.
The charge was assault on Elizabeth Graham. The case was heard before William Gale Esquire. Also reported in the Lancaster Gazette on same date.
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Lancashire Courts of Quarter Sessions.
S - Quarter Sessions: The Court in Session
P - Petitions
3415 - Lancaster: Midsummer 1852
Repository
Lancashire Archives
Level
Item
Reference number
QSP/3415/12
Title
Certificate of expenses of several named witnesses in case against Robert Dodd and Thomas Athersmith
Date
26 May 1852
Charged with stealing a tarpaulin and a pair of boots.
" … the notorious and old offenders against the laws, Thomas Athersmith and Robert Dodd …" (Lancaster Gazette 29th May 1852)
"... charged with having stolen at Egton-with-Newland, a tarpaulin, property of John Graham. Robert Dodd, 29 and Thomas Athersmith, 23, charged with having stolen at Dalton, a pair of boots, also with having stolen …" (Lancaster Gazette 26th June 1852)
They were acquitted of stealing tarpaulin but found guilty of stealing boots. Sentenced to 18 months imprisonment. (Westmorland Gazette 3rd July 1852; Kendal Mercury 3rd July 1852; Cumberland Pacquet & Whitehaven Advertiser 6th July 1852)
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There are a lot of references to Robert Dodd (senior and junior) in the delightfully named " Ulverston Mirror and Furness Reflector".
Presumably this is his death notice in the edition of 3 March 1883
"On the 25th ult in Quebec Street, Mr Robert Dodd,aged 64 years". Given that he was shown living in Quebec Street in 1881 I assume this is the correct death although again it adds tothe quandary as to his age (The groindex also has age as 64).
There is also a death for Margaret in the edition of 14 Oct 1882
"On the third inst at 56 Quebec Street, Ulverston, Margaret, wife of Robert Dodd, aged 74 years".
Given that Margaret predeceased him it may simply be that the informant did not know how old Robert was when he died.
William
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I've been following the criminal careers of various members of the Athersmith clan 1830s-1850s. Poaching, trespass with intent to poach, theft, assault, breach of the peace, robbery with violence.
Joseph Athersmith, alias "Joe Jar" or Far/Parr (I was reading excerpts without a sub so am not certain of those aliases), alias Smith, alias Greenwood was frequently up before the bench. There was a suggestion that he might have done away with his wife 1841/2 but there was no report of a trial and he was free and active after then. Thomas Athersmith was also sometimes labelled with an alias.
1838: This concerns Thomas & Margaret Park and some members of the Athersmith family.
A drunken Park was found and taken to Athersmith's house, "where he and his wife resided, she being Athersmith's daughter. " On arriving at the house "they were assailed by most obscene language" (Kendal Mercury 2nd June 1838)
"... for they were a bad set. Athersmith knew they were policemen. Witness then took Athersmith into custody, ... " Margaret Park then hit the witness. (Lancaster Gazette)
"... four of the gang were secured … including old Athersmith, Park and his wife. On the following morning old Athersmith's wife was apprehended …" (Westmorland Gazette 2nd June 1838; Carlisle Patriot 9th June 1838)
Midsummer Quarter Sessions 1838: "... appears quarrel arose out of a transaction in taking a person, Dixon, into custody, when the defendants interfered. Betty Athersmith was acquitted; all others guilty." John and Mary Athersmith were sentenced to 1month in prison. (Westmorland Gazette 7th July 1838)
I don't know if this was connected to the fracas in June or was a different offence.
1842. John Athersmith, Senior, John Athersmith, Junior, Joseph Athersmith and Margaret Park were charged with wilful damage to a field. (Westmorland Gazette, Kendal Mercury, 2nd July 1842)
1842. There was a coroner's inquest on the remains of a dead woman. "... the deceased, being then unknown, was the wife of Joseph Athersmith, alias Jar of Ulverston, nailor, who, it is supposed, put a period to her existence about 7 months ago …" (Kendal Mercury 9th July 1842)
1844. Away from Court to happier matters. A marriage: Mr James Athersmith, nailer, to Miss Mary Park, both of Ulverston. (Cumberland Pacquet & Whitehaven Advertiser 21st May 1842) Was she a relative of Thomas Park?
Back to court for some poaching and criminal damage:
June: Joseph Athersmith + several aliases, "well-known in the district as a lover of game, was charged …" (Westmorland Gazette 22nd June 1844)
July: John and James Athersmith charged by a gamekeeper with trespass on Priory land.
November: Joseph Athersmith, alias Joe Jar and David Kendall, nailmakers of Ulverston, charged with damage to a door.
1846 Thomas Athersmith "alias Tom Jar" was in court in front of Willam Gale, Esquire, (who must have been weary of hearing the name Athersmith) in Spring (Lancaster Gazette 4th April 1846) and Joseph Athersmith "alias Joe Jar" made an appearance in June (Westmorland Gazette 20th June 1846)
1850s more poaching, (a scene of crime was Holker, would that be Holker Hall?), varied by theft. Joe and Thomas Athersmith along with George Taylor and John Kendall were accused of stealing money from an old man. Confusingly, the victim was another John Kendall. "Robbery with Violence: … Joseph Athersmith, 41, a stout man of the labouring class …" according to the Lancaster Gazette. By "stout" did the writer mean sturdy or corpulent?
A newspaper report which has nothing to do with crime:
"Narrow Escape from Drowning" concerns Thomas Athersmith "a youth of about 17 years" who was bathing at Ulverston. (Lancaster Gazette 27th June 1846)
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Very interesting reading William and I love the name " Ulverston Mirror and Furness Reflector".
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Knowing the criminal activities of Robert Dodd and the male Athersmiths, all nailmakers, I can't resist.
It seems that they pinched anything which wasn't nailed down. ;D Sorry. :-[
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Regarding Margaret's ages.
1841 census age 30. Census enumerator was instructed to round down ages of adults to a multiple of 5. Margaret could have been aged 30-34 at the census. 1841 census was in summer. Estimated year of birth 1807-1811.
1851 census age 36. Census enumerator was supposed to record age as given. 1851 census was taken in Spring. Estimated y.o.b. 1815.
1861 census age 47. Estimated y.o.b. 1814.
Death October 1882 age 74. Estimated y.o.b. 1808.
All those years were before the marriage of John and Mary in Leigh in 1816 (reply #9). Margaret may have been born before that marriage and may have had another surname. There were no children of that marriage in registers in the Leigh area.
What did Margaret put as her place of birth?
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Quote;
Knowing the criminal activities of Robert Dodd and the male Athersmiths, all nailmakers, I can't resist.
It seems that they pinched anything which wasn't nailed down. ;D Sorry. :-[
;D ;D ;D
Yes I agree Maiden Stone about Margaret.
I had looked for a Baptism under Hartley and a Burial for a male Hartley and previous Marriage for a male Hartley to a Mary 1800-1815 with no luck.
She is pretty consistent in saying she was born Ulverston, Lancs, except 1851 which has Ulver, Westmorland.
(having said that there are severa; Margaret Hartley Bapt 1808-1818 mostly Colne, including some born c 1813 Bapt 1837)
Trish :)
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Don't think this has been mentioned:
Kendal Mercury 19 Nov 1842 Death Notice
On the 13th inst, at Ulverston, John Athersmith, nailor,aged 68 years
and in the Westmorland Gazette 18 Dec 1847
On the 10th inst, in Canal Street, Ulverston, Mary,widow of John Athersmith, nailmaker ,aged 68 years.
In spite of all the other press reports it has to be said that the Dodds, Athersmiths and Parks are remarkably consistent in placing marriage and death notices in the local papers
William