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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: KannyLass on Friday 09 August 19 16:17 BST (UK)
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I have run into a brick wall with my family research. I am from a North East Romany and Traveller family. My grandfather, Francis Cooper, was born to Francis James Cooper in Newcastle-upon-Tyne. but, his dad, William (and half of his brothers and sisters) were born in Armagh, in Ireland. I can't find any other information at all for that side of my family. I am coming to realize that some Traveller families did spend time in Northern Ireland. Some to buy horses, some... I don't know why. I don't think my family are Irish, but rather, spent time there in the 1800s before coming back to the UK in the 1870s (William was married to Ellenor Henderson in Kilclooney in 1864. Supposedly, he was born in Armagh in 1843, but I have not found any birth or other details. Their children Andrew, Margaret, Matilda, William, James, and Mary Jane were born in Ireland (the last being in 1874) and Joseph, Thomas Henderson, and Francis James in Newcastle (the first being in 1878). I found reference to William's dad as being James Cooper, born 1824 but no birth certificate. I can find lots of James Coopers around my area (the Borders, the N of England, and Southern Scotland)... but I just don't know how to find the right people. Any pointers would be wonderful!
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Welcome to RootsChat. I like your name - sounds like a good Geordie name! ;)
Unfortunately, I don't know much about Irish research - even though my ancestors were Irish Travellers on my Dad's side.
http://www.marriage-locator.co.uk/cgi-bin/ML_search.cgi?year=1898&qtr=2&vol=10b&page=109&search=search
However, just in case you might not know - the Marriage Locator website states that this marriage took place at St Philip, Elswick in Newcastle upon Tyne for a Francis James Cooper. Might this one be connected to you?
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I think you may be tracing back the wrong family ?
William Cooper appears to be a Carpenter/Joiner
Marriage 1864
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1864/11615/8275683.pdf
children born in Ireland
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o66/
1881
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q271-BHDX
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Hi River Tyne Lass and thanks for your reply! I do know that Francis James was married to Marian Paton (daughter of Robert Paton and Martha Mitchell) in Newcastle in 1898. Really, they are just not to be found before the 1881 Newcastle census. I also know that of the kids born in Ireland, all married in the UK (except perhaps Andrew, b. 1866 in Ireland - I can't find much for him at all. Margaret b. 1867 married in 1889 in Newcastle; Matilda b. 1870 married in 1894 in Newcastle. William b. 1871 was a master of a steam ship at the Quay by 1911, but I can't find a wife. James b. 1872 - have yet to find anything for him; Mary Jane b. 1874 married in Newcastle in 1898... I really just can't find anything for them before 1881, except for the marriage of William Cooper and Ellenor Henderson in Armagh in 1864...
Hi Dathai! I am pretty certain I am tracing the right family... it's taken me a long time to get this far! Being labelled a joiner in the census doesn't preclude William from also being a Traveller. Joiners make smaller more ornamental objects - furniture, fittings, etc and not the larger stuff of a carpenter or other woodworker. My grandfather made wooden stools with seats woven from cloth or reeds that he was taught to make by his dad, Francis James). Most Travellers weren't labelled as such in the census, especially in the North East (if they even appear in the census) and most had some kind of house address by the 1800s). I'm not sure of the other links you posted - they went to login forms on other sites. Are these to look for the birth certificates etc? FamilySearch seems to have the same information I have, but no more. I'll look at that Irish one though, for sure. They seem to have settled down when they came back to Newcastle - maybe even before that (most being "labourers, dealers (marine or general), woodworkers (joiners), and a few hawkers). I still don't know anything about them before 1881 though (except the marriage in Armagh!)
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The first link posted by dathai is the official website for civil registration of births, marriages and deaths in Ireland. Civil registration of births and deaths began 1864. Registration of Catholic marriages also began in 1864; civil registration of other marriages 1845. There are also some church records on the website.
The website is free to use. You just have to prove you're not a robot, sign-in and tick the declaration that you will abide by the rules. You have to repeat this procedure on each visit.
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I found reference to William's dad as being James Cooper, born 1824 but no birth certificate.
You need baptism registers whichever country he was born. Civil registration of births began at different times in England, Ireland and Scotland.
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There seems to be something wrong here as dathai has tried to point out. Without seeing his reply and not checking in English records I found the following-
William Cooper, carpenter, of Keady, son of James Cooper (farmer) married 1864 to Eleanor Henderson of Cavanagh Grove-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1864/11615/8275683.pdf
The first 3 children were born at Cavanaghgrove with the informant being Mary Jane Henderson-
1. Son (6 Jun 1865 Cavanaghgrove) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03576/2317744.pdf (father- carpenter, inf.- Mary Jane Henderson)
2. Daughter (5 Oct.1866 Cavanaghgrove) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1866/03511/2291080.pdf (father- carpenter)
3. Matilda Cooper (1868 Cavanaghgrove) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1868/03422/2255388.pdf (father- carpenter, inf.- Mary Jane Henderson)
The next 3 children born at Ballynewry-
4. William Cooper (9 Oct.1870 Ballynewry) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1870/03326/2219014.pdf (father- carpenter)
5. James Cooper (25 Aug.1872 Ballynewry) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1872/03238/2186612.pdf (father- carpenter)
6. Mary Jane Cooper (10 Aug.1873 Ballynewry) https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1873/03188/2168834.pdf (father- carpenter)
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/fews-lower/mullaghbrack-lower-fews-portion/ballynewry/
This may be 'Cavanaghgrove'
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/fews-lower/kilclooney-lower-fews-portion/cavanagrow/
Added- forgot to mention that William Cooper born c1837 according to marriage record
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In 1834 there's a James Cooper in Ballynewry-
http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/armagh/tithe-applotments/mullaghbrack-parish.php
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http://www.marriage-locator.co.uk/cgi-bin/ML_search.cgi?year=1898&qtr=2&vol=10b&page=1&search=search
Just in case you don't know which Church that Mary Jane married at - Marriage Locator records this as St James, Benwell.
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Too bad the OP didn't respond to all the information posted although they had signed in after River Tyne Lass' last post on the 10th August :-\
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I agree aghadowey. :-\
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Hi Dathai! I am pretty certain I am tracing the right family... it's taken me a long time to get this far! Being labelled a joiner in the census doesn't preclude William from also being a Traveller. Joiners make smaller more ornamental objects - furniture, fittings, etc and not the larger stuff of a carpenter or other woodworker. My grandfather made wooden stools with seats woven from cloth or reeds that he was taught to make by his dad, Francis James). Most Travellers weren't labelled as such in the census, especially in the North East (if they even appear in the census) and most had some kind of house address by the 1800s).
I'm not sure of the other links you posted - they went to login forms on other sites. Are these to look for the birth certificates etc?
See https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=200983.msg6788718#msg6788718
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I too have hit a brick wall and I wonder if it is due to the ancestor being from a travelling family. I’d welcome any help, insights or advice. My 2nd G grandfather was called William Docherty. He was born c 1874 in Hamilton (according to his appearance in later Scotland census returns) and died in 1947 in Dumfries where he lived certainly from around 1892 or so. He married in Dumfries a lady called Grace Wilson and I’ve found they’re marriage certificate.
The major problem is that I’ve been unable to find a birth certificate for him at all or his entry on census anywhere in the UK before 1901.
From his marriage certificate his fathers name is recorded as Robert Docherty (deceased) and mother Mary Elizabeth Robertson. There is no record of them anywhere I can find.
Where I did make some progress recently was through ancestry DNA where I identified a distant cousin who it appeared was descended from a brother of William Docherty (James). Intriguingly there is no birth record for him either though his later census returns place his birthplace as Lockerbie c 1870. His marriage certificate states parents as for William but Robertson has come Robinson.
Finally an intensive search on Scotlands people identified a third sibling, a sister, Alice Agnes, born - according to census details - in Kirkcudbrightshire in c 1864. Again there is no birth certificate for her, though her. She marrries a Lawrence Collins in Castle Douglas in 25 September 1882 and her marriage certificate already says Robert Dougherty (sic!) is dead. Her mother is cited again as Robinson. She dies young in 1889.
So we have three verified siblings, and verified parents but no birth certificates I’ve been able to find and no parents records I’ve been able to find. The traveller connection is through old family stories that suggest Robert was a traveller who met Mary and married in cumbria in a traveller ceremony. Certainly, my ancestor, William, was a horse dealer all his life in Dumfries and was the first man to take Clydesdale horses to Canada. At his funeral apparently all the local traveller families came to pay their respects.
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Spelling was very fluid until at least WWI when more people were literate, had to fill in forms, etc. Robertson and Robinson are just versions of the same name. Doherty/Docherty ... has numerous variations. With such variations it can be difficult to find records but don't forget to check under mother's surname in case the parents were not married.
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Thanks. And sorry I should have said that I’ve exhaustively tried various spelling variations and mothers surname too all to no avail.
Spelling was very fluid until at least WWI when more people were literate, had to fill in forms, etc. Robertson and Robinson are just versions of the same name. Doherty/Docherty ... has numerous variations. With such variations it can be difficult to find records but don't forget to check under mother's surname in case the parents were not married.
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Hi Alasdair
There is an entry on the 1871 census in Troqueer, Kirkcudbright that looks interesting to follow up.
Ancestry have the surname as Dothage and Find my Past have it as Dotheray.
From Ancestry you have this group below. They all show as born in Cumberland and each shown as 'traveler':
Mary Elizabeth Dothage 39 Lodger widow, traveller, b. Cumberland
George Mean Dothage 13 (FindMyPast have the name as Georgeanian - female)
Robert Dotheray 10
Alice Dotheray 7
James Dotheray 3
Address 4 Church St, Maxwelltown, Troqueer (FindMyPast have it as 2, Stables).
Failing to see a William though on this list...
Monica
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Have you managed to find any of the confirmed children on the 1881 census?
I saw this possibility for Alice:
Elice Docherty, 17, hawker b. England
Lodging at Eastgate Lod. House, Peebles.
Do you know what her occupation showed as on her 1882 marriage reg?
Monica
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I think we are on the right track for the family.
The eldest daughter Georgina from the 1871 census entry died in Hamilton in 1934 at the age of 77.
GEORGINA DOUGHERTY or SHERRY
Age 77
1934
Ref 647 / 479
Hamilton
She is showing as the widow of a Mark Sherry, coal hewer. Can't easily see that marriage so far in Scotland/England.
See parent details from the reg below. Note that Mary Elizabeth is showing there with the maiden name of Hudspith.
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If you have access to Ancestry, see there is a family tree on there for Georgina here www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/112868551/person/192306145558/facts
A marriage date of 9 Sep 1874 in Ayrshire is given. I can't see it. Maybe the date has come from their children's birth regs?
Monica
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Thank you SO much for this help - you’ve managed to break down a big part of this brick wall I was facing. This has already opened up a whole lot new information that I and a distant cousin are now putting together. It does seem to confirm that the ancestry is travellers too which is exciting. Thanks again.
If you have access to Ancestry, see there is a family tree on there for Georgina here www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/112868551/person/192306145558/facts
A marriage date of 9 Sep 1874 in Ayrshire is given. I can't see it. Maybe the date has come from their children's birth regs?
Monica
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Alasdair, I am sure you have noted this...
With Mary Elizabeth showing as widowed by 1871 and following the birth of son James, Robert Docherty could not have been the father of your William who was born c.1874 from what you have. Finding Mary Elizabeth with the younger boys in 1881 census in Scotland or England would help. But, they are hiding ::)
Added: They are not with daughter Georgina and her new family in Hamilton. Georgina, husband Mark and children were lodgers in the Reid household. Ancestry have them as SKIRRA. If you check the RC database on SP, you will see at least 4 baptisms at St Mary's, Hamilton for their children.
Monica
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...Note that Mary Elizabeth is showing there with the maiden name of Hudspith.
That note was from Georgina's death reg earlier. This looks like her birth:
DOUGHERTY, GEORGINA Mother's maiden name HUDSPITH
GRO Reference: 1857 J Quarter in HEXHAM Volume 10B Page 208
How about this for son Robert's birth?
DOUGHERTY, ROBERT Mother's maiden name HUDSPITH
GRO Reference: 1861 M Quarter in ROTHBURY Volume 10B Page 329
A possible entry in 1891 in Carlisle, St Mary Within, Cumberland:
Robert Docherty 30 mason's lab b. Alnwick, Northumberland
Margaret Docherty 28 b. Carlisle Cumberland
Robert Docherty 1 month b. Carlisle Cumberland
Alice Collins 1 niece b. Scotland...this would be Alice Agnes's daughter b. 1889 in Kirkcudbright
William Docherty 17, boarder, cattle driver b. Scotland....is this your William I wonder?
Possible death for him:
Robert J Docherty
Age 52 (born c. 1861)
Carlisle Cumberland
4th Qrt 1913
Vol 10b/pg 369
1901 family entry in Carlisle www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSVJ-ZWX
Monica
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From Robert's son William's birth reg:
DOUGHERTY, WILLIAM JAMES Mother's maiden name DAVIDSON
GRO Reference: 1891 J Quarter in CARLISLE Volume 10B Page 534
This looks like Robert and Margaret's marriage:
Robert Docherty and Margaret Davidson
Carlisle 2nd Qrt 1885 Vol 10b/ pg 746a
Monica
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Margaret Davidson looks to have died between the 1901 and 1911 censuses. 1911 below:
Robert Dockerty 49 widower bricklayer's lab b. Alnwick, Northumberland
William James Dockerty 20 general lab b. Carlisle
Jane Hobson Dockerty 18 b. Carlisle
Address 5 Scott's Court Rickergate Carlisle
Also in 1911, son Robert, aged 15 and born in Carlisle, is likely showing in an Industrial School in Chorlton upon Medlock. Possibly this one www.childrenshomes.org.uk/ManchesterStJosephBoysIS/ (needs more work to confirm location).
Monica
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Thanks again for these insights, Monica. It’s really helped us unlock this side of the family after having hit a brick wall for so long.
Margaret Davidson looks to have died between the 1901 and 1911 censuses. 1911 below:
Robert Dockerty 49 widower bricklayer's lab b. Alnwick, Northumberland
William James Dockerty 20 general lab b. Carlisle
Jane Hobson Dockerty 18 b. Carlisle
Address 5 Scott's Court Rickergate Carlisle
Also in 1911, son Robert, aged 15 and born in Carlisle, is likely showing in an Industrial School in Chorlton upon Medlock. Possibly this one www.childrenshomes.org.uk/ManchesterStJosephBoysIS/ (needs more work to confirm location).
Monica