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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Norfolk => Topic started by: Jac987 on Saturday 03 August 19 17:15 BST (UK)
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Hi Roots people
I was wondering f anyone could assist in finding my great grandfather Alfred's birth place and DOB? I know on the 1911 Census he was living in Chesterfield, Derbyshire with his wife Sarah Alice and father in law Samuel Pacey. He is shown as being 21, which would give him a birth year of 1890, and being born in Yarmouth, Norfol(k). On his marriage, the previous December he was shown as being 22, which would indicate he was born in 1888, and on the 1939 register he has put his birthdate as 1 July 1888.
On the 1901 Census, the only Alfred Needham born in Norfolk that we can find is living in Sheffield, aged 14, which would put this birth around 1887, and his birthplace as Aylsham, Norfolk. I've found his sister Annie's christening in Norfolk, her parents living in Sportsman's yard, Norwich in December 1893 (which was pulled down in the slum clearances of 1934). His mother Emma was from Sheringham and their father William from Sheffield, although they seem to have the children in Norfolk whilst living in Sheffield. I haven't found Emma's birthdate or location, but there is another possible brother, William Henry, born to William and Emma and baptised in St. George-Tombland, Norwich, Norfolk, on 3 February 1899. He doesn't appear on the 1901 census however with the rest of the family.
I haven't been able to find William and Emma's marriage, although there is one possibly in Chesterfield in 1887, to an Emma Alicia Cooper, (the ages seem wrong) and another in Skulcoates, Hull in 1893 to Emma Eliza Welton, but again the ages seem wrong.
It has been pointed out that the bombing of Yarmouth and the Norfolk cost in 1914 and again in 1916 may well have destroyed any useful records, but I would be very grateful if anyone had any suggestions for further research.
Many thanks
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Welcome :)
Please can you give all the details you have from the 1910 marriage, including paternal details and witnesses?
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Welcome :)
Please can you give all the details you have from the 1910 marriage, including paternal details and witnesses?
Got it: Alfred was a 22 yr old miner on marriage, 7 Dec 1910 at Holy Trinity Chesterfield.
His father was named as William Needham (deceased), moulder. Witnesses: Harry Rose; Mary Briggs.
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Presumably with your Sheffield family, Emma isn’t necessarily the mother of all the children. She is much younger than William and there is a big age gap after son Alfred to the next child.
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Yes avm228 that's the one. I did try and upload it 5x but either the files were too big or when I made them smaller they showed as duplicates and errorred out ::)
I hadn't really thought about Emma not being Alfred's mother but definitely worth checking out. Odd that they were all from Norfolk except William ???
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Possible death for Emma snr: Emma Needham aged 37, Mar qtr 1902 Sheffield.
There is at least one online tree giving an alternative surname for this family as “Driver”, but it looks unreliable in a number of respects (not least that the child Emma, 4 in 1901, is shown as born 1902).
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Possible death for Emma snr: Emma Needham aged 37, Mar qtr 1902 Sheffield.
Not sure about this one. She died at Sheffield Union; indexed as aged 35 at burial in a communal grave at St Michael’s Roman Catholic cemetery on 3 January 1902. No other Needhams with her.
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Yes I'm thinking that Emma dies in 1902, along with a child, Mary a couple of weeks later. And the Drivers thing is just bad and confusing research. Those Needham children were Margaret, Arthur and William in 1901 and living in Keighley not Sheffield.
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Does she die along with a (related) child? How do you know Mary is connected?
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I see that Mary Needham died at Sheffield Union aged 3 months and was also buried in the Roman Catholic cemetery in a separate communal grave on 29 January 1902. Was she Emma’s daughter? Why are they Catholic all of a sudden?
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The family in Sheffield definitely do not correspond to the William Needham/Emma Alicia Cooper marriage. The latter couple are in Chesterfield in 1901 (she as Emma Alecia Needham).
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Age of 35 for Emma fits in with the 1901 census where she's 34, and as she seems to have died on 3rd January and Mary on 29 January, they may not have been buried at the same time? But I really don't understand the catholic thing either. Unless the catholics were the only ones who were burying the paupers that month?
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Age of 35 for Emma fits in with the 1901 census where she's 34, and as she seems to have died on 3rd January and Mary on 29 January, they may not have been buried at the same time? But I really don't understand the catholic thing either. Unless the catholics were the only ones who were burying the paupers that month?
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The burials (not deaths) were 3 Jan and 29 Jan, per Sheffield Indexers. Circumstantially they may have been mother & daughter but we don’t know, is that right? Similarly Emma may be the same one we see with William in 1901 (she is a decent fit) but not confirmed.
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They maybe the ones but I've nothing definite either way. But as William was deceased by 1910, it may explain why any records of Annie and Emma junior end in 1901. Without a mother and then a father they would struggle to survive. But again it's not definite that William and Emma are Alfred's parents without his birth info.
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It is all very puzzling.
There is a death in Hull in 1900 of a William Henry Needham aged 1 - wonder whether he is the one baptised in Norwich in 1899?
The unreliable tree has Annie Needham whisked off to the US as an adopted daughter.
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There is a death in Hull in 1900 of a William Henry Needham aged 1 - wonder whether he is the one baptised in Norwich in 1899?
Died 12 March. Buried 15 March
Age 14 months
Son of William
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L96P-K8BP?i=300&cat=701705
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That would explain why William wasn't on the 1901 census, but why Hull? Unless he's a child of the William who married emma in skulcoates. I think the child that went to America was the Keighley Annie who was 3 years older than the Sheffield one.
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The age looks about right. They could have a had a short spell in Hull.
Are there no birth registrations at all?
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There is nothing for Alfred Needham in Norfolk. There is one in Cambridge, born 1886, with mother Goddard. A Cambridge Goddard married a Driver.
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I am not seeing this 1893 Sculcoates marriage of William Needham and Emma Eliza Welton at all ???
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There is nothing for Alfred Needham in Norfolk. There is one in Cambridge, born 1886, with mother Goddard. A Cambridge Goddard married a Driver.
The Cambridge one stayed in Cambridge all his life. Parents were Thomas Needham & Alice née Goddard, married Sep qtr 1867 Bethnal Green.
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I am not seeing this 1893 Sculcoates marriage of William Needham and Emma Eliza Welton at all ???
OK now found in 1883 rather than 1893 - William Needham & Emma Welton on the same page, Dec qtr 1883 Sculcoates. YorkshireBMD confirms they married one another at All Saints, Sculcoates.
This couple can also be ruled out - they went on to have Needham/Welton children in Lincolnshire.
They were in Saxby, Lincs in 1891: RG12/2629/78/10.
In Attercliffe, Sheffield by 1901: RG13/4384/100/23 (separate from the other Sheffield family).
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Dwindling options 😣
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His mother Emma was from Sheringham
Is there any way it could be Hevingham? :-\
On his marriage, the previous December he was shown as being 22, which would indicate he was born in 1888, and on the 1939 register he has put his birthdate as 1 July 1888.
On the 1901 Census, the only Alfred Needham born in Norfolk that we can find is living in Sheffield, aged 14, which would put this birth around 1887, and his birthplace as Aylsham, Norfolk.
A near miss?
Birth of a male child, 20 Aug 1888, in the Aylsham Union workhouse to Emma Lee (admitted from Itteringham)
Baptized in the name Alfred.
On FamilySearch
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o55/
Registered Sep 1888 Aylsham 4b 88, a dash for mother's maiden surname in the new GRO index.
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Admission to the workhouse of Emma Lee, 7 August 1888
Servant
Baptist
Born 1863
Single pregnant
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o56/
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Is there any way it could be Hevingham? :-\
Or Itteringham would be better!
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OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
I attach the written extract. What do you think???
Excited :o :o
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The first letter or letters beats me. The rest looks like eringham.
Whatever, there might anyway have been some misreading by the enumerator. Which could at least give us more options :-\
John
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how did you find that? My mother's been looking into this for years!!!
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I am just thinking is Alfred a son of Emma, as they are both from Norfolk.
And William Needham comes along later. As said already, there is a gap to the other children. Who may all be unregistered under any name!
Maybe more hope with Alfred...
John
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Emma Lee was baptised 6 July 1862 at Itteringham, daughter of Matthew & Phillis.
1871 is the only census in which she appears with her parents: RG10/1802/73/13.
She’s in service in 1881: RG11/1934/88/13.
Disappears after that.
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1881 she's a dairymaid living with the Sutton Family, (including George aged 23!). So sometime after being discharged from the workhouse in Sept 1888 she either goes back to her family or her employers, or elsewhere. Plenty to go at there!!!
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there are 2 Emmas on the 1871 census in Itteringham, one the daughter of Matthew & Phillis, the other the daughter of Henry & Ann RG10/1802 folio 74 pg 16. And they're cousins as Henry & Matthew appear to be brothers, sons of Robert & Ann.
One of the Emmas might have married Albert Edward Bumfrey dec qtr 1890 Aylsham vol 4b pg 175. Although she is shown as 43 in 1901 RG13/1825 folio 161 pg 38. Oldest son George born 1890.
:-\
adding George registered as Albert George Bumfrey Lee sept qtr 1889 Aylsham vol 4b pg 47 mother's maiden name -
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There is an Emma Edmunds 28 b Itteringham in 1891, wife of Charles Edmunds, in Lowestoft.
The 5mo baby Emma with them may be Emma Edmonds mmn Lee, birth reg Dec qtr 1890 Mutford.
The Edmonds couple stay together in Lowestoft - 1911 index suggests they have with them Emma’s mother “Pheobe’” Lee, 77 b Beeston Norfolk.
Marriage is Charles Edmonds/Emma Lee, 5 March 1885 Lowestoft. Her father: Henry Lee, labourer.
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possible marriage sept qtr 1855 Erpingham for Henry Lee & Phoebe Ann Burton on same page
birth reg Emma Lee march qtr 1862 Aylsham vol 4b pg 80 mmn Burton
the other Emma was registered june qtr mmn Hopper
marriage reg march qtr 1861 Erpingham Matthew Lee & Phillis Hopper on same page
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So based on the above I'm thinking Emma Lee, mother Phylis nee Hopper, as Alfred Lee was born in 1888. If this is the Sheffield Emma of the 1901 census, one of Alfred's half sisters (Emma) could have William as a father or other fathers. I'm finding no marriages between William and Emma, unless she married someone else in between and they died.
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on the 1891 census, Matthew & Phillis have 2 grand daughters living with them, Ada Edith and Annie.
birth reg Ada Edith Lee march qtr 1885 Aylsham vol 4b pg 92 mmn -
baptism in Itteringham 4 Dec 1887 for Ada Edith Lee illegitimate daughter of Emma Lee
birth reg Anna Lee june qtr 1883 Aylsham vol 4b pg 79 mmn -
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Wonder where Alfred was then. Unless William only agreed to take Emma's son? Maybe Anna died and then Annie Needham was named for her?
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no sign of a death reg, but there is a possible marriage june qtr 1901 to James John Golding.
Birth reg of an Annie Golding june qtr 1902 Sheffield vol 9c pg 613 mmn Lee
death reg for Annie Golding 19 june qtr 1902 Sheffield vol 9c pg 341
& for James John Golding 34 june qtr 1910 Sheffield vol 9c pg 332
:-\
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But Annie born Itteringham was in Norwich in 1901
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSFK-781
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I probably need to check out all Emma's siblings and offspring to see if Alfred was living with them between when he was born and he 1901 census. But it's given me a headache so that will be for tomorrow :-)
Thanks to you all :-D
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marriage was june quarter so could have been after the census?
possible for James Golding single 25 railway platelayer's labourer b. Oulton in Sheffield in 1901 RG13/4375 folio 133 pg 6
which would tie in with birth reg James John Golding march qtr Aylsham vol 4b pg 73
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her brother Walter Dennis died in 1891, I saw his burial when searching earlier. Just checked 23 Nov 1891 in Itteringham aged 23.
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So just to recap, given there were 2 Emma Lees born in Itteringham in 1862, one in Q1, the Burton Lee, and the other in Q2, the Hopper Lee, I'm sort of prioritising the Hopper Lee as she's got form for illegitimate children. However moving to 1881, one is a dairymaid in Horstead with Stanninghall, St Faiths, Norfolk, aged 19, and one is a Housemaid age 21 in Norwich. Any tips and hints as to I narrow down which one is which? There's also an Emma Lee b. 1862 bQ3 in Mitford, mmn Hall which looks to be 4 miles from Itteringham.
:-O
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the Emma Lee registered in Mitford died aged 1 jun qtr 1864 Mitford vol 4b pg 189, buried at Sparham 9 April 1864 aged 134
Emma Lee, daughter of Henry, married Charles Edmonds 8 March 1885 in Lowestoft. One of the witnesses was Julia Gurney, her older sister who had married James Robert Gurney Aylsham march qtr 1880. There's a Gurney grandchild with Henry & Phoebe in at least one census entry.
It's possible that one of the birth certificates for Anna, Ada Edith or Alfred may give an occupation.
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Aha!
I couldn't find an Alfred living with Albert Bumfrey or Charles Edmonds so I knew it wasn't those Emmas but this seems to clarifiy that my gg grandmother was Emma Hopper Lee.
Thankyou muchly :-)
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.Birth reg of an Annie Golding june qtr 1902 Sheffield vol 9c pg 613 mmn Lee
Death reg of an Annie Golding in Sep 1902 Aylsham, age 0
Although Emma Lee and Alfred Lee were discharged from the Aylsham workhouse, 22 Sep 1888, they seem to have been readmitted on the same day. Parish Itteringham. No help from Matthew?
Emma a 26 year old Domestic Servant, religion is now Church of England.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o5j/
And discharged 14 August 1889. Alfred is called Ernest here!
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o5k/
Admitted again 8 Feb 1890
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o5l/
But this time I cannot find a discharge record.
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Ada Edith may be the mother of the female Lee born in the workhouse, 12 April 1906. We can only see the start of the entry on FamilySearch. Child is Olive Maud perhaps (married Basil Spink?)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o5m/
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So we now know Emma was the housemaid not the dairy maid ☺ And Ernest may be a name to look at. I'm only able to look at these records by scrolling to the next page. Is that the only way or can you look up names over the period?
Sounds like Mathew was sick of bailing out Emma's progeny 😮
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Hi
I'm afraid it's go through all the pages, two at time perhaps for either admissions or discharges. Sadly the alphabetical by surname creed register on FamilySearch only goes up to early 1888.
John
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Matthew in 1911 with Ada Edith, Olive and another child of Ada Edith?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X75G-7WB
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Poor Mathew!! His kids must have him down as a soft touch!
I've found Emma and Alfred discharged from the workhouse on 31st July 1890, and don't seem to have gone back in up to the end of 1891, so she must be on the 1891 census somewhere else, as her Dad won't let her back. Can't find her as Emma Lee with Alfred, within 100 miles of Norfolk, or Sheffield. Her sister Elizabeth isn't at home, there are 3 0ptions in Norfolk for her, but no Alfred with any of them.
:-o
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Hi
I completely missed that discharge!
It says Itteringham in the remarks column for Emma, but Scottow for Alfred? I can only think it's another one of their errors, as the person underneath Alfred has been dittoed!
I have - rather late in the day - found another source. The indoor relief lists. They are arranged half-yearly by parish, but are still proving rather hard work.
On FamilySearch they are not totally in yearly order. So far I haven't come across 1890. Missing years perhaps?
But have found 1889, the half-year ending Michaelmas. Two images per parish, Itteringham's Emma and Alfred Lee spent 142 days in the workhouse during that time.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o5w/
ADDED
Getting the hang of it now, going back to the half-year ending Lady Day 1889
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o5x/
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You've got more of a hang of it than me!! I do wonder where you go from the workhouse if your family won't help. So many abandoned children in there. 😮