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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: Drinagh on Thursday 25 July 19 03:59 BST (UK)
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Searching for any relatives of Constance O'Neill nee Ross Murphy and her husband Patrick O'Neill details from family history are:
Father:Patrick Joseph Ross Murphy, known as Joseph, born 5 January 1865 Kingstown, enrolled at Blackrock College on 8 January 1880 as a boarder but left at the end of 1880. In the list of past pupils his address in 1900 is given as 12 Garville Avenue, Rathgar Dublin 6. This is the street in which James Flanagan was living when he died. (See 4 above).
He married Josephine Catherine Walsh at St Josephs, Terenure, Co Dublin 17 September 1903 . His occupation is given as seaman and hers Lady. His father Patrick Ross Murphy is described as Merchant. Her father James Joseph Walsh occupation is Solicitor and her mother was named Margaret Josephine (nee Kavanagh). She was aged 35, having been born on 19th June 1868 at 52 Lower Dominick Street. She died 23 July 1946 at 1 Esker Villas Upper Rathmines, present was her husband Joseph. The marriage witnesses were William Ross Murphy who on the Church record has his address as 12 Garville Avenue and Mary Walsh her only sister and she had 2 brothers. Only known issue from the marriage is one daughter (she may have been adopted) named after her Aunt, Constance.
1. Constance married a Patrick O’Neill, sometime after 1922, and whose mother was named Evaleen. Patrick in the Army Census of 1922 was recorded as being in the Infantry with rank of Private. He was aged 19 and living at the time at 14 Dalymount Phibsborough Dublin. He joined up on 31 October 1922 at the Curragh. He had recorded as his next of kin an Uncle, Rev C Ross Murphy (Fr Charlie). According to the Irish Army Military Archivist he served in the Volunteer Reserve was discharged and reenlisted on 2 December 1923 until final discharge on 31 March 1930 from the Volunteer Army. Known issue from the marriage were:
1. Constance O’Neill
2. Carmel O’Neill
3. Hugh O’Neill
According to a ‘Citation for a Proof of Will’ issued by the Deputy Clerk Surrogate’s Court Munroe County NY USA on 31 October 1947 the children and Constance were living at the Curragh Co Kildare in 1947.
Many thanks
Have searched all available online records but nothing has shown up, hence the post.
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https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/civil-records/help/what-civil-records-are-on-line
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As noted in original post have searched all available on line records without success hence the reason for the original post.
Constance O'Neill was working at the Harcourt Street Nursing Home in 1948 but there are no records available from the operators of the home at that time. Have approached the various nursing bodies via email and they have not found records for that time either.
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"Constance married a Patrick O’Neill, sometime after 1922....."
Marriage results for Constance from 1922 to 1944 http://www.rootschat.com/links/01o3c/ don't see a Reg for it!
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See Church of Immaculate Conception ,Parish Hall
Rev Charles Ross Murphy interned there 1943
http://www.kildare.ie/community/easysiteswp/ballymoreanglers/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Heritage-Trail-DL1.pdf
Death does not seem to be registered though there was probate late of Cnoc Avan,Ballymore Eustace,died 9th march 1943 granted to Rev F Gaynor P P and Robert F Coonan, Solicitor.
effects £2723 5s 6d
search the on line catalogue
https://www.nationalarchives.ie/search-the-online-catalogue/advanced-search/#!/details/110624650
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Many thanks 'dathai'
I have all the details on Fr Charles including his obit. His grave is just beside the outside front wall of the Church with a Celtic Cross marking it. His father Patrick Ross Murphy who died in 1910 was living with his son while Rev Charles was curate at Lusk, Co Dublin.
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1911 shows no children for Josephine
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rathmines___Rathgar_West/Brighton_Square/56173/
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Hi 'Haywood' thanks for response. Yes am aware of no children for Josephine in 1911 census. She was living with her sister at the time, so Constance would have been born post 1911 but nothing shows for up to 1918.
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Josephine's death notice givers her as wife of Joseph, daughter of JJ Walsh but no mention of a daughter.
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1. Constance married a Patrick O’Neill, sometime after 1922, and whose mother was named Evaleen. Patrick in the Army Census of 1922 was recorded as being in the Infantry with rank of Private. He was aged 19 and living at the time at 14 Dalymount Phibsborough Dublin. He joined up on 31 October 1922 at the Curragh. He had recorded as his next of kin an Uncle, Rev C Ross Murphy (Fr Charlie). According to the Irish Army Military Archivist he served in the Volunteer Reserve was discharged and reenlisted on 2 December 1923 until final discharge on 31 March 1930 from the Volunteer Army. Known issue from the marriage were:
1. Constance O’Neill
2. Carmel O’Neill
3. Hugh O’Neill
According to a ‘Citation for a Proof of Will’ issued by the Deputy Clerk Surrogate’s Court Munroe County NY USA on 31 October 1947 the children and Constance were living at the Curragh Co Kildare in 1947.
Many thanks
Have searched all available online records but nothing has shown up, hence the post.
What is the family connection between Patrick O’Neill, mother Evaleen and Uncle, Fr Charles Murphy?
When and where were Constance, Carmel and Hugh O’Neill born?
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Rev Charles Ross Murphy died 1943
Chief mourners his brother Joseph, nephew Clement, Mrs C Murphy and Major Murphy DSO (relatives)
Clement ? Ross Murphy died 1959 in Bishopstown Cork, married, aged 71
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1959/04362/4130902.pdf
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A Newspaper snippet on FindMyPast expands those names slightly.
I think it reads Mr Joseph Ross Murphy brother, Mrs Murphy, Dublin (sister in law); Mr and Mrs Clement Ross Murphy, Glendalough; Major J L Murphy; Lieut. Cecil Ross Murphy; Miss Josephine Ross Murphy; Miss Joan Ross Murphy (cousins)
There may be more.
Drinagh, you will have all this, I know. There is further info online re Clement.
I just wondered how Patrick O’Neill was the nephew to Fr Charles in addition to Constance being a niece, although perhaps adopted.
Have I misunderstood this.
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What evidence is there that Constance married Patrick, have you got one of the children's birth Certs?
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'Sinann', many thanks. yes have all the obit and death details for Josephine and as you point out no mention of daughter. Hence my difficulty in tracing. Her father was at sea for most of his life and in earlier documentation occupation given as "seaman". The earlier reference to Constance in 1948 was from my late mother when she was there having my brother. She said she met a Mrs O'Neill who said that her father was a Ross Murphy who had been at sea all his life. By tying together the info from the USA which refers to the relationship, this is why I identified Constance as a child (born or adopted) of Joseph and Josephine. The actual notice is “Joseph R Murphy of 1 Esker Villas, Upper Rathmines, Dublin, Ireland; and, if living, to Patrick O’Neill (son of Evaleen O’Neill and nephew of Ellen R Murphy, dec.,) formerly of Curragh, County Kildare, Ireland; and if he be not living, then to his widow Constance O’Neill and to his distributes and children whose names and residences are as follows: Constance O’Neill, Carmel O’Neill, Hugh O’Neill being the three children of said Patrick O’Neill and all residing at said Curragh, County Kildare, Ireland.”.
Regards
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Here is the Murphy family of Garfield Avenue.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Rathmines/Garville_Avenue/1295086/
There is a daughter Eveleen.
You posted here for the same information and attached a word document.
https://irelandxo.com/ireland/dublin/message-board/oneill-nee-murphy
Extract:
Patrick O’Neill (son of Evaleen O’Neill and nephew of Ellen R Murphy, dec.,) formerly of Curragh, County Kildare, Ireland
Reading that, I would think that Constance is not the Ross Murphy relative - it is Patrick O’Neill, especially as he give Fr Charles as his n o k.
Added
I have just seen your latest post and have been trying to trace Evaleen’s marriage whilst I composed this - I will still post it even though it repeats some of yours.
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Haywood and Sinann
I will try and answer your questions in order.
Patrick's father, also Patrick, and Eveleen were married in the UK and I have the record. She is recorded as Eveleen Ross Murphy but I have not been able to find which branch she belongs to. Some of the problems is that on some records the first names have been substituted. This might explain the relationship with Fr Charles.
The obit for him, for which I have the original newspaper clipping, lists among the mourners, Clement, my grandfather, Cecil, my father, Joseph, my granduncle, etc all direct relatives of mine.
I don't know when and where Constance's children were born but obviously before 1947. Have not been able, at this stage to find birth certs.
There is no documentary evidence that she married Patrick except for the details from the 'proof of will'.
I have search 'freebmd' for a possible birth of Constance but no matches.
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Who is Eveleen’s father on her marriage certificate?
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Patrick John Hugh O’ Neill Registered 1903 Southwark.
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Marriage of Patrick and Eveleen in the district of Westminster Vol 1a page 1175. Original shows her father as Patrick Murphy and her father as Jonas (Joannis) O'Neill as her father. Date of marriage is 3 November 1902.
Fr Charles father was Patrick Ross Murphy, in some records Patrick Murphy. Patrick had a number of children including 4 daughters one of whom died young, 2 died in the USA and the 4th Constance Mary E was born 21 November 1875 but no further info has been found for her as the E on her birth cert is just "E". All but the one who died young born at Springmount House, Shankill which was owned by Patrick and put up for sale in 1898. This all seems to confirm that Eveleen was indeed Constance Mary E and the relationship to Fr Charles.
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Yes, I can see the family in 1901 and the births of Constance Mary E, 1875 and Ellen Mary, 1872 - you will have them all anyway.
Is your premise, therefore, that Constance (unknown) was the adopted daughter of Joseph Murphy (after 1911) and ‘ married’ and had three children with her ’cousin’ Patrick O’Neill?
It is difficult to follow.
Who was in Rochester, NY?
Did Joseph leave a will?
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Further info as requested:
Ellen Mary known as Mary died in Rochester 3 Sept 1947, Mary Kate known as Blanche died 22 Jan 1960 in Lima County NY State and William died 28 July 1963 in Rochester all buried in same graveyard as follows:
K. Holy Sepulchre Cemetery Rochester New York USA Records
Details from Section 16 and Lot/Tier 61
I. Ellen Ross Murphy died 3 September 1947 and buried 5 September in Space 4N
II. Blanche Ross Murphy (Originally recorded as Ross Blanche Murphy) died 22 January 1960 and buried 25 January in Space 3N
III. William John sic Ross Murphy died 28 July 1963 and buried 31 July in Space 2N
This indicates that I have been reasonably effective in my research.
Regards
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I am sure you have been effective in your research but the drip feeding of information not quite so.
Whilst I fully appreciate that you know nothing or little of Constance and she is your primary focus, there is so much that could have been explained.
You might have thought the will reference and other family members of no consequence but in trying to ascertain information, we often look at the bigger picture. Hence, the findings which you already have in abundance.
But, no matter, we have tried. :)
As I asked earlier, are you assuming Constance is related through some kind of adoption and this is based on her conversation with your mother?
Did her ‘parents’ leave wills?
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'haywood' Many thanks for your comments and I stand corrected. Should have uploaded the whole document at least Part 1 plus parts of Part 2 that relates to this branch of the family. Josephine's father-in-law, Patrick RM, was my great granduncle.
My mother did not give any indication that Constance was adopted, this was a possible assumption on my part, all I had from her was the fact that she met a Mrs O'Neill who said her father was a Ross Murphy who had been at sea all his life.
There is no will record that I can find for Josephine who died in 1946 and I have not found a death record for her husband Patrick Joseph known as Joseph.
Any way thanks for all your help and comments. Will keep trying. Regards
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Here is Josephine’s death- does it say ‘wife of porter’?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1946/04600/4218661.pdf
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Looking at other p on the page I'm not sure it starts with p, if I hadn't looked at them I would have said porter.
See the RIC pensioner above and painter below.
Footer!
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Thanks Sinann. I doubted it too. I wondered about ‘footer’ but the ‘f’ in other words has a few styles.
The ‘p’ in Murphy looks similar though.
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The only directory I have access to and it’s by name, not address, shows a William Bryan at 1 Esker Villas in 1940. I can’t see anything later for the address. :-\
It is a business directory I think.
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Glasnevin shows her as Josephine Murphy age 72 when entering Esker Villas in address box
https://www.glasnevintrust.ie/genealogy/results/index.xml
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That’s great dathai.
I tried searching with name and d o d but got 0 results.
I have tried Joseph/Patrick with/without Esker Villas but again 0 results.
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Sinann and Haywood. I have had Josephine's death record for some time and initially thought that Joseph's occupation was 'porter' but could not be sure. It maybe something to do with the sea or merchant marine. The 'p' in the record below is quite distinct. I will also have a look at the Glasnevin record and purchase the record. I have done this many times.
Another thought is to concentrate on Patrick O'Neill whose mother was Eveleen and see whah this can produce.
I will post results of Glasnevin once I have them.
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Joseph would be 80 yrs old at that time.
(Just saying for no reason :) )
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Evelyn can also be a mans name, I wonder if Eveleen could also?
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Sinann, Eveleen could be but most associate it with female and of Celtic origin. On the marriage certificate, in Latin, it says daughter of Patrick Murphy.
'dathai' et al. Thanks for pointer to Glasnevin and using Esker Villas. I did so and now have the details for St Patrick's section, area: KJ and number: 164
Joseph Murphy dod 3 March 1955 aged 87, occupation Clerk, widower, Addr: 94 Upper Rathmines Road
Mary Walsh dod 10 May 1947 aged 70, spinster, 1 Esker Villas, Rathmines (This is Josephine's sister who was a witness at her wedding)
Josephine Murphy dod 23 July 1946 aged 72, clerk's wife, married, 1 Esker Villas, Rathmines
Eveleen O'Neill dod 4 July 1941, female, Comm Travellers WD, 12 Upper Garfield Ave, Dublin (This is the address that Blackrock College had for Joseph in 1900 and looks to be his mother's address at the time) from the 1901 census she would have been 21. This is where Patrick moved to after he sold Springmount House, Shankill.
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What was Patrick O’Neill’s occupation on his marriage to Eveleen?
Her address doesn’t look like Upper Garfield Street on her death certificate :-\
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My apologies made a typo, it should be Garville. Joseph's brother William was also living there, No 12, at the time of Joseph's marriage.
Nothing on marriage certificate re occupation. Only reference to occupation is on her death certificate as widow of Commercial Traveller.
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Copy of marriage certificate for Patrick and Eveleen. Have had to crop original to reduce size.
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Sorry, I also meant Garville,
The address looks like 48 Gar.. Pk. Same area probably.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1941/04700/4254536.pdf
The certificate you have is the church record not the civil record which would have details of his occupation and His father’s occupation.
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The civil records that I have been able to look at are just summaries giving the District as Westminster, Vol 1a and Page no 1175. What is the best way to see the detailed record. Unlike the Irish records these seem to be more difficult to access. Regards
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Copy certificates are £11 - quite expensive, I think.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp
You need to register first - Free
Even though the site will seem to be births and deaths, you need to select ‘Place an order’ from the box
You have the place and GRO reference but you will also need to select the quarter - Oct-December
I have tried searching for Patrick James, with father John and (maybe) brothers William and Dennis but not got anywhere yet.
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Heywood, thanks. Have ordered a copy, at great expense NZ$21.08, so will see what it shows. Won't get it until after 5 August.
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Let’s hope it has some interesting information.