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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Canuc on Wednesday 24 July 19 12:59 BST (UK)
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Not sure if this is the correct board, my apologies
In the Roman Catholic church the church of your baptism is the foundation and then as one moves through the sacraments the event is documented back to the original parish. My question is does a marriage get reported back as well?
The follow on question is how does the second parish document this, is it annotated on the 2nd Parish's Register?
I'm curious because it might just be a way to get a clearer idea where in Ireland a grandfather came from.
As ever, happy hunting
Canuc
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The quick answer is - it depends ….
When, where, and whether a particular priest followed the rules, was meticulous or didn't bother/mislaid notes/forgot ...
The requirement for a marriage to be noted in baptism register applied worldwide from 1908. The Papal decree on marriage, "Ne Temere" 1907, specified only bride's baptism register but some priests added a marriage to groom's baptism. E.g. a note about my parents' marriage was added to my mother's baptism entry but my maternal granddad's baptism at the same church doesn't mention his marriage. I've not seen my dad's or maternal grandmother's baptism registers so I don't know if either has a note of marriage.
Some priests took it very seriously. A marriage register for a Catholic church recently added to Lancashire Online Parish Clerks' website has place and date of baptisms for most Catholic marriage partners post 1908 or occasionally a note that no record of a baptism was found.
Some Irish registers for baptisms in late 19thC have notes for some entries re. marriage. I've seen some at foot of page or wherever there was space, so not always next to the baptism entry.
The papal decree on marriage touched on how much effort & expense a parish priest should expend in contacting a person's parish of baptism and decided that use of modern (and expensive) communications such as telegrams was not necessary.
A reason for the change was emigration or internal migration.
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Postscript. Have looked again at the marriage register kept by the careful priest I mentioned in my previous post. St. Mary, Bacup, Marriages 1894-1918. It's only marriages 1914 onwards which include information about baptisms in this register. It seems to coincide with a change of priest. Rev. John Kiely included baptisms for one or both parties, sometimes dates of birth, some have birthdates and baptisms for bride and groom. Rev. Kiely might have been away or ill in early June 1914 because 2 weddings conducted by another priest have no extra information about bride or groom. Rev. Kiely was back on duty later that month and detailed marriage entries resumed. This parish had a high proportion of Irish-born/Irish descent inhabitants. There were a lot of mixed marriages in this parish, more so in the first decade of the century, i.e. pre "Ne Temere".
Marriage registers for same period at St. Mary of the Assumption, Burnley, a few miles away, contain no information about baptisms. Priest at this parish seemed to be concentrating on "regularising" marriages which had taken place in non-Catholic churches. Baptism registers of this parish are on LANOPC. A few baptisms in late 19th and early 20th centuries have a note added about marriage.
www.lan-opc.org.uk
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Maiden Stone,
Thank you for the info. The marriage I'm thinking of is pre 1908 but I'm thinking the Parish Priest was Irish and they may have understood that they were a garrison parish so might just have helped people by reporting back. We'll just have to see (once I'm sure where the registers ended up).
Thank you again
Canuc
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Canuc -- sorry if I have got hold of the 'wrong end of the stick' here -- but is it likely to have been a birth or marriage whilst the father/groom was in the Army?
If so have you checked Army births or Army marriages? They can be accessed on Find My Past and if you find your ancestor you can order a certificate from the GRO in the normal way as you will have some relevant details.
Just go to the A-Z on Find My Past and start typing in 'British Armed Forces' (without the quotes and a list of options for the Armed Forces will appear including births and marriages.
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Pennines,
The particular marriage I'd like to know more about isn't army, it just happens to be the local church, but useful info to know
Thank you
Canuc
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Sorry Canuc -- it was due to you mentionining the 'garrison town' that I thought it may have military connections.
Do you prefer not to give your ancestors names in this case -- as some clever rootschatter may just be able to find your grandfather's birth?
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I have found many baptism records annotated with details of a subsequent marriage, but not all are sadly - even in the same area - so i guess it’s a question of how thorough the priest was in his record keeping (much the same with all religions as seen from a large range of parish records).
The only notes i have seen on a marriage record is when one party was not a Catholic.
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Pennines,
I'm in England without my GRO Certs and don't know if St Paulinus in Old Brompton is the same as St Paul's (there being a CofE parish of the same name in the Gillingham area). I just have my Ancestry entry to work with.
As best I know:
William Patrick Murphy
Mary Ann Hogg
m. 1874-02-15
the GRO Ref is "Medway Vol 2a Page 561"
What I was hoping to do was get a lead on his place of baptism (possibly Cork from the 1901 census), and anything extra on Mary (I have muddled up family names from my Grandmother's best effort at writing out what she recalled about her in-laws).
Here goes
Canuc
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I have found many baptism records annotated with details of a subsequent marriage, but not all are sadly - even in the same area - so i guess it’s a question of how thorough the priest was in his record keeping (much the same with all religions as seen from a large range of parish records).
The only notes i have seen on a marriage record is when one party was not a Catholic.
I have to say, I never realised this was a 'thing'. I presume this never really happened for people baptised in Ireland but married in GB or even further afield.
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Sorry, the baptisms i’m referring to were all in England and Wales.
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I have seen baptism entries annotated with marriage details, but almost always where the marriage took place well outside the parish.
One such entry gave me the name of the bride, the date of the marriage, and the name of the church 4500 miles away in Canada. I had not even suspected that the man emigrated!
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To be married in the Catholic church you had to show that both parties had been baptised. If either party couldn’t provide a baptism certificate then they had to contact the church for proof. Maybe this is how the baptism entries were annotated in some cases.
I do have annotated baptism entries even when the marriage was in the same church or parish.
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To be married in the Catholic church you had to show that both parties had been baptised. If either party couldn’t provide a baptism certificate then they had to contact the church for proof. Maybe this is how the baptism entries were annotated in some cases.
I do have annotated baptism entries even when the marriage was in the same church or parish.
But surely that was not practical, say, for Irish immigrants, even to GB in the 18th and early 19th centuries before any viable postal system even existed? Even when the proper postal systems were up and functioning and telegrams came in, I would still be surprised if priests always managed to contact the original parishes of baptism from London to Tipperary, or New York to Cork.
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Pennines,
I'm in England without my GRO Certs and don't know if St Paulinus in Old Brompton is the same as St Paul's (there being a CofE parish of the same name in the Gillingham area). I just have my Ancestry entry to work with.
As best I know:
William Patrick Murphy
Mary Ann Hogg
m. 1874-02-15
the GRO Ref is "Medway Vol 2a Page 561"
What I was hoping to do was get a lead on his place of baptism (possibly Cork from the 1901 census), and anything extra on Mary (I have muddled up family names from my Grandmother's best effort at writing out what she recalled about her in-laws).
Here goes
Canuc
Where do you have him as William Patrick?
Free BMD just gives names William and Mary.
The marriage certificate would give his father’s name which might help you trace him- not exactly a rare surname ;)
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So Canuc -- if you have that actual marriage certificate it will give you the fathers' names of the bride and groom.
You could then check the RC Parish baptisms on the Ancestry site for a 'William Murphy' born about 1848 plus or minus a couple of years, with a father's name of (whatever it was on marriage cert) -- in Cork.
Often the Irish people would name their eldest son after the father's father as well -- which may provide another clue for you -- ie check the name of William and Mary's eldest son. (That's not cast in stone -- but was often the case).
(Edit -- sorry Heywood I have just repeated what you said about the certificate -- didn't mean to do that, but at least it shows I agree with you!!)
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To be married in the Catholic church you had to show that both parties had been baptised. If either party couldn’t provide a baptism certificate then they had to contact the church for proof. Maybe this is how the baptism entries were annotated in some cases.
But surely that was not practical, say, for Irish immigrants, even to GB in the 18th and early 19th centuries before any viable postal system even existed?
this only became the rule after about 1908
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To be married in the Catholic church you had to show that both parties had been baptised. If either party couldn’t provide a baptism certificate then they had to contact the church for proof. Maybe this is how the baptism entries were annotated in some cases.
But surely that was not practical, say, for Irish immigrants, even to GB in the 18th and early 19th centuries before any viable postal system even existed?
this only became the rule after about 1908
Easter 1908 after "Ne Temere " decree on marriage 1907 (my reply #1).
Marriages between a Catholic and a member of another Christian denomination still happened in Catholic churches after 1908.
"Ne Temere" required a Catholic to marry in a Catholic church, preferably in the parish of the bride, in the presence of the parish priest or a priest designated by him. Prior to 1908 the Catholic Church didn't require members to marry in a Catholic church; main requirements before then were that a marriage was performed according to the law of the country and that neither party had a living spouse.
Adding information about a marriage to a person's baptism register was an insurance against that person trying later to marry someone else in a Catholic church while their spouse was alive.
There have been several amendments to Catholic canon law between 16th and late 20th centuries. They were applied or not applied in different countries and even in different dioceses within a country at various times. That's why I began my first reply with "it depends when, where"
Catholic priests were operating illegally in England until very late in 18th century. There were no parishes, only missions. Decision to begin keeping a register would have been up to each chaplain or missionary. Some priests who kept registers (in small notebooks) took them away when they moved. Registers which remained in a place have big gaps or resemble scrapbooks, even in 19thC.
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Further to Maiden Stone's information (24 July) about the decree “Ne Temere”, this decree was issued to unify the Catholic solemnisation of marriage around the world, The big change that was seen here in England was the introduction of the “Certificate of Freedom to Marry”. This is a copy of all the information in the entry in the Baptismal Register for the person. This has to be given to the priest who is to solemnise the marriage and after the marriage that priest has to inform the baptismal parish of the details of the marriage for them to be entered the baptism entry. If that person needed another “Certificate of Freedom to Marry” to marry in a Catholic church later, then that certificate will contain details of the first marriage and the person will have to prove the death of the first spouse. In such cases, there should be an addition giving details of the second marriage and MAYBE details of the death of the first spouse. These annotations may appear in baptism registers from about 1870 for marriages that took place after 1908.
Another consequence of the decree “Ne Temere” is that couples who had married outside the Church would (to use a phrase from my youth) have their marriage 'put right' with a ceremony in church. Such ceremonies would be recorded in the church marriage register and are usually annotated 'NT' or 'Ne Temere' or similar, and sometimes have reasons. These are the most common instances where the entry in the Catholic register does not have a civil entry for the same date. This only occurs after 1908. The 'civil' marriage (in a non-Catholic church, or in the Register Office) will have occurred some time (??many years) before this church entry.
It is very seldom that there is an annotation in the marriage register to indicate where the persons were baptised.
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Thanks, Jim. I'd saved a link to the English text of "Ne Temere" but it doesn't work.
After reading your 2nd paragraph I looked again at the marriage register of St. Mary of the Assumption, Burnley where I'd previously noticed reference to "Ne Temere" in some entries. The first* was in May 1909.
"Marriage [Convalidation]" followed by the usual information about the couple, their fathers and witnesses, then Notes: "Propter decretum 'Ne Temere' " (propter = on account of)
There were 40-50 weddings annually in the parish. "Convalidation" marriages numbered 1-4 annually until they shot up to 11 in 1917. Notes on some 1917 "Convalidation " marriages included date of the previous ceremony; each date noted was between 1914 and 1917.
The stated reason for one convalidation ceremony was that a registrar hadn't been present at the church so the couple went to the registry office the next day for a civil marriage.
* I checked up on this couple. They married in summer 1908 in an Anglican church and had a child in October, baptised Catholic. The teenage bride may have been illegitimate. Her father in C. of E. marriage register was a different person to her father in R.C. marriage register and neither surname matched hers. Her mother's surname in R.C. register wasn't the same as the bride or either father. Good luck to anyone researching that family. :)
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I have looked at the marriage register for St Joseph, Heywood (1872 onwards). Quite a number of marriages are annotated “Obtenta dispensatione (matrim: mixt:)” showing that one of the parties was not a Catholic. The first reference to “Ne Temere” is in 1912 and is annotated “disp Apost obtenta Ne Temere case” suggesting that the couple had previously had a marriage ceremony in a non-Catholic church, or in the Register Office Checking LancashireBMD (http://lancashirebmd.org.uk/index.php ) shows that the previous ceremony took place at St Clement, Rochdale, in 1909. LanBMD does not have a record of this ceremony in 1912.
References to “Ne Temere” become much more common from 1913. Taken with your note about St Mary, Burnley, this suggests that the diocese authorities had started to 'encourage' noting of these cases.
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To be married in the Catholic church you had to show that both parties had been baptised. If either party couldn’t provide a baptism certificate then they had to contact the church for proof. Maybe this is how the baptism entries were annotated in some cases.
But surely that was not practical, say, for Irish immigrants, even to GB in the 18th and early 19th centuries before any viable postal system even existed?
this only became the rule after about 1908
Easter 1908 after "Ne Temere " decree on marriage 1907 (my reply #1).
Marriages between a Catholic and a member of another Christian denomination still happened in Catholic churches after 1908.
"Ne Temere" required a Catholic to marry in a Catholic church, preferably in the parish of the bride, in the presence of the parish priest or a priest designated by him. Prior to 1908 the Catholic Church didn't require members to marry in a Catholic church; main requirements before then were that a marriage was performed according to the law of the country and that neither party had a living spouse.
Adding information about a marriage to a person's baptism register was an insurance against that person trying later to marry someone else in a Catholic church while their spouse was alive.
There have been several amendments to Catholic canon law between 16th and late 20th centuries. They were applied or not applied in different countries and even in different dioceses within a country at various times. That's why I began my first reply with "it depends when, where"
Catholic priests were operating illegally in England until very late in 18th century. There were no parishes, only missions. Decision to begin keeping a register would have been up to each chaplain or missionary. Some priests who kept registers (in small notebooks) took them away when they moved. Registers which remained in a place have big gaps or resemble scrapbooks, even in 19thC.
I see thanks. I have managed to find a fair few early baptisms and marriages, some of which were at the embassy chapels of various Catholic countries in London. It makes sense that the rule didn't apply until 1908 due to the sheer impracticality of contacting the couple's baptismal churches in far flung places (and probably quite often they didn't even know where they were baptised).
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It makes sense that the rule didn't apply until 1908 due to the sheer impracticality of contacting the couple's baptismal churches in far flung places (and probably quite often they didn't even know where they were baptised).
"A Commentary on the decree 'Ne Temere' " by Very Reverend John T. Creagh, Professor of Canon Law and Associate Professor of Jurisprudence at the Catholic University of America, published 1908
On status liber, proofs of liberty; refers to the current "diversity of practice" with examples and references.
"A frequently recurring statute takes account of persons who come from a distance; these are obliged to furnish (to the parish priest) proofs of liberty, that is, testimonial letters from the last place in which they had domicile …; or the sworn declaration of witnesses; or if neither of these can be secured, the sworn declaration of the contracting parties that they are free from impediment must be taken."
One diocese had advised "special diligence" regarding Italians immigrating to America after age 14.
"It is evident from the above that … the parish priest is left in many cases to his own zeal and discretion , too often with little assistance or direction from positive legislation."
https://archive.org/stream/CommentaryOnTheDecreeNeTemere/CommentaryOnTheDecreeNeTemere_djvu.txt