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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: Prue Heron on Saturday 20 July 19 14:21 BST (UK)
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Hi. A friend is looking for ancestors in Cork/Limerick areas of Ireland. In particular Kathleen O'Connell (they were said to come form Charleville but I can't find anything.) Mother as above, Alice Kennedy and father Patrick O'Connell (surname edited.. 20:42 20/7/19). Kathleen was murdered as a young girl/teenager and I expected there would be a newspaper report but can find nothing. Her death would have been around the 1916 era they have assessed from times of family visits back to Ireland and the black and tan era. They would dearly like to find her grave to visit. Any hints please...
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Is this the marriage of Patrick and Alice?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1879/11070/8050559.pdf
Cross checking with births, this is probably the family in 1911 but they do not have a daughter named Kathleen.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Limerick/Ardpatrick/Laurencetown_North/621398/
Perhaps you can tell us more about the family, in particular details of the child of Patrick and Alice that your friend descends from so that we can find the right people.
Debra :)
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This must be family-nine children surviving in 1911,but only six listed as living at parents home.Kathleen(Kate)born on Sep 30 1887.By 1911 she would have been 24-possibly working as servant.If she died as teenager it was before 1911
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1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Limerick/Ardpatrick/Laurencetown_North/1492747/
6 children at home
1911
Only 4 at home including Ellen 32 yrs who must be away in 1901 and Patrick 8 yrs.
10 children born alive and 9 still living.
I think there are two children missing, one of whom must have died.
6 from 1901 plus Ellen, plus Patrick - leaves 2 unaccounted for - Kate/Kathleen plus one other.
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Is this the marriage of Patrick and Alice?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1879/11070/8050559.pdf
Cross checking with births, this is probably the family in 1911 but they do not have a daughter named Kathleen.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Limerick/Ardpatrick/Laurencetown_North/621398/
Perhaps you can tell us more about the family, in particular details of the child of Patrick and Alice that your friend descends from so that we can find the right people.
Debra :)
All extremely interesting... have sent it to friend...(she is just hosting a surprise party for the descendent of this family!) - she will be back soonest.
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Possible
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Death registration for a young Kathleen O'Connell... could be her?
copyright image removed
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https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1911/05392/4505440.pdf
Name KATHLEEN OCONNELL
Date of Death 1911
Group Registration ID 5180872
SR District/Reg Area Limerick
Deceased Age at Death 15
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Snap... ! I would have thought there would be something in the newspapers if she had been murdered young... but I can find nothing.....
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I would have thought there would be something in the newspapers if she had been murdered young
It would have been all over the newspapers. So there is something wrong about the family story.
There was a murder of a teenage girl in Charleville in 1909 - but that was a Bridget Gayer.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/offbeat/murder-in-charleville-the-killing-of-bridget-gayer-1.3737900
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There was a Kate Connell hit by a train in 1905, aged 23 she was a servant of John Frost.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1905/05575/4565818.pdf
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edited
http://www.limerickcity.ie/media/Sch039.pdf Link about Mount St Vincent which was an orphanage
This is address of the girl on death cert at reply no 7 so hard to know if its the correct person
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I would have thought there would be something in the newspapers if she had been murdered young
It would have been all over the newspapers. So there is something wrong about the family story.
There was a murder of a teenage girl in Charleville in 1909 - but that was a Bridget Gayer.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/offbeat/murder-in-charleville-the-killing-of-bridget-gayer-1.3737900
Yes, agree with you but makes you wonder how it could have got distorted that much!
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edited
http://www.limerickcity.ie/media/Sch039.pdf Link about Mount St Vincent which was an orphanage
This is address of the girl on death cert at reply no 7 so hard to know if its the correct person
Fascinating though... thank you...so much.. I will keep on keeping on.
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Thanks to everyone who has helped so far. I have spoken to my friend again (John O'Connell is her husband) and they would like to find Kathleen's grave and story. Sorry but there is so little extra material. John thinks his father, Patrick, was born in 1905 - later than Kathleen. There were only two other siblings, Jack and Kathleen. And he remembers they lived in Charleville.
Sorry this is so sketchy. I'm not holding out a great deal of hope. I do think that train accident death looks like a 'possible' and am sending it over to them. They are also going to order that death certificate for the 15 year old. Will keep you posted.
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There was a inquest into the train accident death which appeared in thr Limerick Chronicle. Unfortunately the coverage of that paper starts too late on Irish Newspaper Archives.
Perhaps the paper would be willing to help.
Kate appears on page 84
http://www.limerickcity.ie/Library/LocalStudies/ObituariesdeathnoticesetcfromtheLimerickChronicle/Alphabeticallistingsofobituariesdeathnoticesetc/alphabetical1%20C.pdf
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They are also going to order that death certificate for the 15 year old. Will keep you posted.
Why would you pay for a copy when it is free online?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1911/05392/4505440.pdf
Name KATHLEEN OCONNELL
Date of Death 1911
Group Registration ID 5180872
SR District/Reg Area Limerick
Deceased Age at Death 15
Debra :)
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John thinks his father, Patrick, was born in 1905 - later than Kathleen. There were only two other siblings, Jack and Kathleen. And he remembers they lived in Charleville.
In that case the family of Patrick O'CONNELL and Alice KENNEDY detailed previously in this thread is not the right family as they had ten children and didn't live in Charleville.
Debra :)
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There was a inquest into the train accident death which appeared in thr Limerick Chronicle. Unfortunately the coverage of that paper starts too late on Irish Newspaper Archives.
Perhaps the paper would be willing to help.
Kate appears on page 84
http://www.limerickcity.ie/Library/LocalStudies/ObituariesdeathnoticesetcfromtheLimerickChronicle/Alphabeticallistingsofobituariesdeathnoticesetc/alphabetical1%20C.pdf
They are also going to order that death certificate for the 15 year old. Will keep you posted.
Why would you pay for a copy when it is free online?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1911/05392/4505440.pdf
Name KATHLEEN OCONNELL
Date of Death 1911
Group Registration ID 5180872
SR District/Reg Area Limerick
Deceased Age at Death 15
Debra :)
There was a inquest into the train accident death which appeared in thr Limerick Chronicle. Unfortunately the coverage of that paper starts too late on Irish Newspaper Archives.
Perhaps the paper would be willing to help.
Kate appears on page 84
http://www.limerickcity.ie/Library/LocalStudies/ObituariesdeathnoticesetcfromtheLimerickChronicle/Alphabeticallistingsofobituariesdeathnoticesetc/alphabetical1%20C.pdf
I found this from your post... thanks
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I was thinking the same Debra.
There is a Katie here - parents Patrick and Mary but more siblings than described.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Charleville/Rathgroggan_South/421547/
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Thanks Dundee - that's great! Will order.... Whoop
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There was a inquest into the train accident death which appeared in thr Limerick Chronicle. Unfortunately the coverage of that paper starts too late on Irish Newspaper Archives.
Perhaps the paper would be willing to help.
Kate appears on page 84
http://www.limerickcity.ie/Library/LocalStudies/ObituariesdeathnoticesetcfromtheLimerickChronicle/Alphabeticallistingsofobituariesdeathnoticesetc/alphabetical1%20C.pdf
They are also going to order that death certificate for the 15 year old. Will keep you posted.
Why would you pay for a copy when it is free online?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1911/05392/4505440.pdf
Name KATHLEEN OCONNELL
Date of Death 1911
Group Registration ID 5180872
SR District/Reg Area Limerick
Deceased Age at Death 15
Debra :)
There was a inquest into the train accident death which appeared in thr Limerick Chronicle. Unfortunately the coverage of that paper starts too late on Irish Newspaper Archives.
Perhaps the paper would be willing to help.
Kate appears on page 84
http://www.limerickcity.ie/Library/LocalStudies/ObituariesdeathnoticesetcfromtheLimerickChronicle/Alphabeticallistingsofobituariesdeathnoticesetc/alphabetical1%20C.pdf
I found this from your post... thanks
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I was thinking the same Debra.
There is a Katie here - parents Patrick and Mary but more siblings than described.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Charleville/Rathgroggan_South/421547/
I posted this in response to reply #17 but then there were more posts but it is a bit confusing with all the quotes.
Are the parents Patrick and Alice definitely proven?
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Wondering if this could be the answer to the murder rumour - with the male witness involved?
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There was a inquest into the train accident death which appeared in thr Limerick Chronicle. Unfortunately the coverage of that paper starts too late on Irish Newspaper Archives.
Perhaps the paper would be willing to help.
Kate appears on page 84
http://www.limerickcity.ie/Library/LocalStudies/ObituariesdeathnoticesetcfromtheLimerickChronicle/Alphabeticallistingsofobituariesdeathnoticesetc/alphabetical1%20C.pdf
Found the inquest! Thanks - posted on here somewhere.
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John thinks his father, Patrick, was born in 1905 - later than Kathleen. There were only two other siblings, Jack and Kathleen. And he remembers they lived in Charleville.
In that case the family of Patrick O'CONNELL and Alice KENNEDY detailed previously in this thread is not the right family as they had ten children and didn't live in Charleville.
Debra :)
Oh no! what a coincidence - back to the drawing board. About to get death cert to see if any more clues on there (Kate train victim),
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The train accident was in 1905 and that Kate was 24 yrs.
This does not fit with your first post :-\
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1905/05575/4565818.pdf
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Hi. A friend is looking for ancestors in Cork/Limerick areas of Ireland. In particular Kathleen O'Connell (they were said to come form Charleville but I can't find anything.) Mother as above, Kennedy and father Patrick O'Connell (surname edited.. 20:42 20/7/19). Kathleen was allegedly murdered as a young girl/teenager and I expected there would be a newspaper report but can find nothing. Her death would have been around the 1916 era they have assessed from times of family visits back to Ireland and the black and tan era. They would dearly like to find her grave to visit. Any hints please...
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There's a Patrick Connell born 9 June 1905 at Foxhall (not far from Charleville). Parents Patrick Connell and wife Mary Kennedy.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1905/01778/1699151.pdf
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Prue,
You have quoted your first post but removed Alice. Is that right?
There is this family of Foxhall - Father Patrick and Mother, Mary Kennedy
John 1904
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1904/01821/1712593.pdf
Patrick 1905
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1905/01778/1699151.pdf
Sorry, Shaun,
It took me a while cross checking and I didn’t see your post.
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Here is that family in 1911 - 6 children born and 5 living but 4 on the census.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Limerick/Colmanswell/Gortroe_East/619037/
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This looks like the family in 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Limerick/Ardpatrick/Baunmore/1492705/
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Marriage in 1896 (2nd one down): https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1897/10448/5804766.pdf
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I did find that but haven't linked them to the thread yet but there is Arthur in 1897, then according to 1901 it is Mary Ann who was born 1900.
Arthur is missing in 1911 but there should be another child.
Perhaps they lost a child between Arthur and Mary Ann.
I was hoping that Prue might be able to confirm something about the family.
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Another point, is that there are more children in this family than are recalled :-\
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Oh no! what a coincidence - back to the drawing board. About to get death cert to see if any more clues on there (Kate train victim),
All information is contained in the link posted by Sinann in Reply 10.
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There's a Patrick Connell born 9 June 1905 at Foxhall (not far from Charleville). Parents Patrick Connell and wife Mary Kennedy.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1905/01778/1699151.pdf
That does look very interesting... (Alice was wrong.. apologies, I couldn't work out how to delete and was just researching!). I will look at following posts as we know they had 3 children.. Patrick, Jack and Kathleen. Fingers crossed.
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Prue,
You have quoted your first post but removed Alice. Is that right?
There is this family of Foxhall - Father Patrick and Mother, Mary Kennedy
John 1904
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1904/01821/1712593.pdf
Patrick 1905
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1905/01778/1699151.pdf
Sorry, Shaun,
It took me a while cross checking and I didn’t see your post.
Wow thank you both - certainly looks very promising!! I have just emailed to the friend. Just need Kathleen and we've got the jackpot. Whoop.
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I haven’t found a Kathleen yet, Prue.
Was she definitely a sibling and not maybe a relative or neighbour?
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Another point, is that there are more children in this family than are recalled :-\
this is my concern about these ones... they fit so well - especially things like Kennedy; Patrick's year of birth being 1905. BUT my friend says there were only 3 childen Patrick, Jack and Kathleen....
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I haven’t found a Kathleen yet, Prue.
Was she definitely a sibling and not maybe a relative or neighbour?
Yes, she's the one that triggered my friend's search. She would have been his aunty. (Patrick was his Dad). She's the one who was supposed to have been murdered but looks like not as no newspapers with such a story. She died 'young'.
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Have you worked back from your friend via certificates?
Or, found the remembered siblings through marriages etc or parent deaths etc?
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Have you worked back from your friend via certificates?
Or, found the remembered siblings through marriages etc or parent deaths etc?
I wish it was that easy :-( The only thing they have is a burial certificate for Patrick (I'm assuming Grandfather) which they will find when they get back from France to England. Patrick junior moved to England but went to and fro his Ireland origins and it is what he passed down. (I appreciate it's vague for these searches!).
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Well, hopefully that will help or be a start at least :)
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My friends have asked me to thank you for researching for them. They are excited about this new O'Connell/Mary Kennedy find. They are looking at the births and census. I am wondering if it was common for children to die young then so later child arrivals didn't know about predecessors. Anyway, passing on their thanks and quite appreciate if that is the end of the road!
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Just to note but presumably too late
There is a death for Kathleen Connell 1931 - 25 yrs - no personal details but sad circumstances of death.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1931/04887/4323378.pdf
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Just to note but presumably too late
There is a death for Kathleen Connell 1931 - 25 yrs - no personal details but sad circumstances of death.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1931/04887/4323378.pdf
[/quote
Well, I think that could be a possible.... I'll look at the records... hmmmmm Patrick Junior knew her so she must have been born and died after he was born....
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Just to note but presumably too late
There is a death for Kathleen Connell 1931 - 25 yrs - no personal details but sad circumstances of death.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1931/04887/4323378.pdf
Sad - suicide... do you know if the death location is far from Charleville.?
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She died in the hospital, Kilmallock which is the right registration area but her residence looks to be Kilteely.
I couldn't quite read it at first but now I see it. It is some distance away but more importantly there is a Kathleen there in 1911 so not yours.
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She died in the hospital, Kilmallock which is the right registration area but her residence looks to be Kilteely.
I couldn't quite read it at first but now I see it. It is some distance away but more importantly there is a Kathleen there in 1911 so not yours.
Onwards and upwards! Thanks anyway.
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She died in the hospital, Kilmallock which is the right registration area but her residence looks to be Kilteely.
I couldn't quite read it at first but now I see it. It is some distance away but more importantly there is a Kathleen there in 1911 so not yours.
I'm reading the inquest report in the paper, her father was Patrick, married sister B O'Leary, Kathleen suffered from epileptic fits. She had no schooling and seldom left the house, she found the Lysol when cleaning down the dresser and just drank it.
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She died in the hospital, Kilmallock which is the right registration area but her residence looks to be Kilteely.
I couldn't quite read it at first but now I see it. It is some distance away but more importantly there is a Kathleen there in 1911 so not yours.
I'm reading the inquest report in the paper, her father was Patrick, married sister B O'Leary, Kathleen suffered from epileptic fits. She had no schooling and seldom left the house, she found the Lysol when cleaning down the dresser and just drank it.
Thank you - what a miserable short life. Glad we have resurrected her a little... not forgotten.