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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: Lionel-W on Wednesday 17 July 19 13:33 BST (UK)
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According to the Scottish census of 1881, my great-grandfather, John Scott, born 1851, Dalziel, Lanarkshire, Scotland and married to Elizabeth S. Scott, born 1853 in Dalziel, was residing at "Glencairn Lodge", Dalziel with his children: Robert H.B. Scott, born 1877; Charlotte E. K. Scott, born 1878; Mary Pennycuik Whapole Scott, born 1879 (my grandmother) and Thomas K. Scott, born 1881. All children were born in Dalziel. In addition, in the household was Mary Scott, sister to John Scott, born 1856 and a widow, probably with her children: James King, born 1874 in Cambusnethan,Lanarkshire; Mary P.S. King, born 1875 in Dalziel; Marion R. King, born 1877 in Dalziel; Robert S. King, born 1878 in Dalziel; Archibald R. King, born 1880 in Hamilton, Lanarkshire. If anybody out there has any information as to what happened to the family, I would very much appreciate being informed. Three months ago I had no more information than the name of my grandmother and that she had lived in Scotland; that was all. Thank you for any assistance.
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You need to go to www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk for all the original records. Your Scotts' and Kings' births, as you would expect, are all in the indexes, and for a modest fee you can view the original birth certificates. These will tell you the date and place of their parents' marriage, and the marriage certificate will tell you the full names of the grandparents including the grandmothers' maiden surnames.
I can't see deaths of Charlotte, Mary or Thomas, but a Robert Henry Scott, who may be your Robert H B, died in Cadder in 1945.
Happy hunting!
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If you do a google search for 9 Glencairn Avenue Wishaw, you will find Glencairn Lodge still standing and inhabited today. That part of Dalziel parish was in the postal town of Wishaw. This confuses a lot of people!
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This is possibly John's birth details:
John Scott b. 1 Dec 1850 New Monkland, Lanark,
Parents Robert Scott and Mary Pennycuik
John's marriage or death cert should include his parents' details to let you confirm their details.
Monica
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Possible marriage for Thomas King Scott
Married 6 May 1907
Renfrew Ontario Canada
Spouse Jane Elizabeth Thompson
Father John Scott
Mother Elizabeth King
Birth Lanark Scotland
WWWI Attestation Papers
Thomas King Scott
Birth 6 August Motherwell Scotland
Occupation African Merchant
Next of Kin wife Mrs J E Scott
Death for Thomas King Scott
16 September 1939 age 59
Victoria British Columbia
Rosie
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Probate for Elizabeth Snell King Scott died 16 May 1918 Skelmore Testate confirmation granted Glasgow 3 June to Charlotte Elizabeth Snell King or Smith Inglehorn South Beach Troon her daughter
And Robert Henry Brownlie Scott 33.Kelvenhaugh Street Glasgow son ..Executors nominated in will or deed dated 17/10/1912 and recorded with another writ in court books of commisariot of Lanark 16 May 1919 Value of estate £1,186.0s 4 d
Rosie
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Three extracts from the burial records of Cambusnethan cemetery, Wishaw.
All three are interred in plot A40. Dates are of internment.
MARY A.M. SCOTT, Motherwell, aged 3 months.
Parents - John Scott & Elizabeth King.
22 June 1885.
THOMAS SCOTT, salesman, Wishaw, aged 28 years, unmarried.
Parents - Robert Scott & Mary Pennycuik.
15 May 1894.
ROBERT SCOTT, mason, Motherwell, aged 37 years, married.
Parents - Robert Scott & Mary Pennycuik.
30 October 1895.
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1881 census from Ancestry.
200 Main Street Wishaw.
SCOTT Robert, head, aged 56 years, hotel keeper, born Bellshill Lanarkshire.
SCOTT Mary P. Wife, aged 55, hotel keepers assistant, born New Monkland Lanarkshire.
SCOTT Robert, son, aged 22, hotel keepers assistant, born New Monkland.
SCOTT Jeanie, daughter, aged 20. Born New Monkland.
SCOTT Jessie, daughter, aged 16, born Carluke, Lanarkshire.
SCOTT Thomas, son, aged 13, born Carluke.
GILCHRIST Agnes, daughter, aged 32, born New Monkland.
GILCHRIST Charles, grandson, aged 7, born Wishaw.
GILCHRIST Robert, grandson, aged 5, born Wishaw.
KING Henry John, son-in-law, aged 36, quarrymaster, born Dalziel.
KING Margaret, daughter, aged 34, born New Monkland.
KING Mary P. granddaughter, aged 9 years, born Wishaw.
KING Charlotte E.S. granddaughter, aged 7 years, born Wishaw.
KING Thomas, grandson, aged 5 years, born Wishaw.
KING Robert S. grandson, aged 4 years, born Wishaw.
KING Henry J. grandson, aged 7 months, born Bellside, Lanarkshire.
ROY Mary, general servant, aged 21, born Slamannan, Stirlingshire.
So, now we have hit paydirt, the Kings are THE Kings' of Dalziel, quarrymasters, millers and builders, (they built the first 2-story building in Motherwell town) and they are very well documented and they are all buried in Dalziel Parish burial ground.
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Three more burials from Cambusnethan cemetery. I should have check to see if A40 was a single or double plot. turns out it's a double plot.
So the first 2 are in A41.
MARY SCOTT, Wishaw, aged 63 years, married.
Parents - James Pennycuick and Margaret Barr.
27 February 1889.
ROBERT SCOTT, spirit merchant, Wishaw, aged 67 years, widower.
Parents names not known.
16 September 1891.
this last intement is in plot A56 (so, very close to A40 & 41)
JEANIE GRAY, housewife, Wishaw, aged 40 years, married.
Parents - Robert Scott & Mary Pennycuick.
2 July 1901.
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This might be a possibility on the 1891 census Hamilton Road Maryfield Dalziel
John Scott age 40 born Airdrie occupation quarry master
Eliza Scott age 38 born Motherwell
Robert Scott 14 b Motherwell
Mary Scott 12 b Motherwell
Eliza Scott 8 b Motherwell
Catherine Scott 4 b Hamilton
Alice Scott 2 b Hamilton
There is also some nieces and nephews surname Thomson in the house with this family
Charlotte and Thomas K Scott are visitors at the home of their Aunt Mary Ann Whamond &William
Whamond on the 1891 census in Jarrow South Shields
William Whamond married M.A.King 1866 Dalziel Lanarkshire
Rosie
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That 1891 census looks likely, Rosie. 1901 entry has Thomas and Charlotte back in the household:
Elizabeth Scott 48 Employer's Wife (stone Quarrier) b. Motherwell
Thomas H Scott 24
Lottia Scott 23
Maude Scott 14
Alice Scott 12
Jean Davis 16 Visitor
...and four servants
Address: The Green, Cambusnethan Lanark
The only possible death I can see with the Scott/King surname combination for Elizabeth is this one:
Elizabeth Snell Scott, other surname King died at the age of 65 in 1918 in Skelmorlie, Ayrshire
There was a reference early on here to a middle initial of S for Elizabeth King so Snell would fit.
Monica
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From the Wills & Testament database on Scotlands People, there is this entry:
Elizabeth Snell Scott
3/6/1919
or King, Rathmore, Lenzie, d. 16/05/1918 at Skelmorlie, testate.
Glasgow Sheriff Court Wills
SC36/51/183
Second document (Inventory) indexed with ref: SC36/48/298
Monica
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"This might be a possibility on the 1891 census Hamilton Road Maryfield Dalziel"
This address would make more sense as "Maryfield", Hamilton Road, Motherwell. Parish of Dalziel.
Maryfield would have been the name of the house, which may still be there. These people were very wealthy and lived in some of the grandest houses in the town. The Green was a very large villa in Wishaw. (Parish of Cambusnethan).
Skelmorlie was where the well-off retired to for the summer months (or places like Helensburgh or Largs).
Whamond, in the 19th century, was also a very prominent name here in Motherwell. Alexander Whamond (I don't think he was a native of the town) was the Dominie at Dalziel Public School, (he taught my great-grandfather) he was also, for a time, the registrar for Dalziel parish, as well as the author of several novels.
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Memento-Mori shows Elizabeth and daughter Charlotte's burial place at Auld Isle Cemetery and Burial Ground in Kirkintilloch Dunbartonshire. The fact that they are listed indicates that there remains a gravestone on the plot(s).
www.memento-mori.co.uk/3.pdf
Elizabeth and daughter Charlotte and a granddaughter
Elizabeth Snell Scott (King) 1918
Charlotte King Scott 1966
Elizabeth King Scott 1974
There is a John Scott showing there for 1932, but no age still showing on the gravestone likely.
Monica
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Mmm...think John Scott may have predeceased Elizabeth.
From the Calendar of Confirmations and Inventories, National Probate Index, Scotland, Confirmation was granted to her daughter Charlotte Elizabeth Snell Scott or Smith residing as Ingleholm, South Beach, Troon and her son, Robert Henry Brownlie Scott at 33 Kelvinhaugh Street Glasgow. Her estate was valued at £1186.
Monica
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I think it's time we paused for breath Monica! We have heard nothing from the original poster of this thread and, like so often in the past, we may not hear anything else. We may never know if our research has been useful, duplicated or even appreciated!
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Hi!
To answer everybody - 'Lodger', 'Forfarian', 'Monica' and Rosie' - individually, after having received such a wealth of information within such a short time, is difficult. So I'll try it this way: Thank you all so very, very much for the intensive work you've done to assist me. It's absolutely amazing what you've found out, which is far more than I had in any way expected. I've copied all the information into a Word file and will now start to sieve through all the details provided and try to find the connections within the different families. Difficulty is, of course, that not only first names, but also last names, are continually repeated in the coming generations. So, for example, my grandmother "Mary Pennycuik Whamond Bell (Scott)" has taken her name from relatives in the past. And then of course, because of this, parallel to the immediate family, cousins often had the same first and last names.
Back in February of this year I got in touch with my cousin on my mother's side of the family who has been building a tree on Geni. The information I had at this time, as reported by my parents and as such considered to be true, was that my father had been born in February 1906 in Bearsden, Glasgow, his parents being William Ewart Gladstone Bell and Mary Bell, both from Scotland. The family then emigrated to Australia where my grandfather became a successful cellist and professor at the Sydney Conservatorium of Music. My father, John Stevenson Bell, later returned to Scotland and never saw Gladstone again. That, at least, was the story as told to me and my mother. In 1975 the second son of my grandfather (he married three times, after Mary, a student, Muriel, 25 years younger and later another student, Joan, 36 years younger!) maintained that my grandfather had not come from Scotland, but had been born in Sunderland, England (Scandal!) which my mother refused to accept. This has however now been proved, together with a lot of information which has changed the entire situation. Apparently, for career reasons, my grandfather first changed his accent from Sunderland brogue to Oxford English and then to Scots, always referring to his 2nd. son as "Laddie". The second time was possibly by chance, having lived in Scotland for some years.
Gladstone, born in 1881 was, as we have now found out, considered a boy wonder as a musician, cello, making his first appearance in London before the Lord Mayor of London at the age of 14. He then went on to teach music in Edinburgh and Glasgow prior to 1902, studied music for two years in Germany at age 21 and later played in famous orchestras in London and elsewhere. He probably married Mary in 1904. In London he was offered a six month contract to appear in the "Exhibition" in Christchurch, New Zealand in 1906 and 1907. He arrived there no later than October 1906, remained for almost 3 years and first arrived in Sydney, Australia in 1909. According to his second son he made various trips back to Great Britain, of which I know nothing and I never met him. Considering that my father was born in February 1906 and the journey to New Zealand took about 50 days, Gladstone must have left his first wife Mary only months after the birth of my father. In no way did the family "emigrate to Australia", as I and my mother were informed, nor was it ever mentioned that he had at any time been in New Zealand; something only found out a month or so ago. Also, my father was not born in Bearsden, but in actual fact in Wishaw, possibly even in Daziel, and nothing suggests that he or his mother Mary left Scotland before 1911; two photos of my father wearing a kilt at approximately age 5 were taken in a professional photographers studio in Glasgow around 1910. As far as I know, we had no contact to my grandmother's family or either to my grandmother herself, who died when I was 6; they just didn't exist and my grandfather was merely a name in the distance, who had left and never returned. I still don't know the reason for all these lies and deceptions, but thanks to you all I'm getting deeper and deeper into finding out what actually happened! Thank you all again.
Lionel W. Bell
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I think it's time we paused for breath Monica! We have heard nothing from the original poster of this thread and, like so often in the past, we may not hear anything else. We may never know if our research has been useful, duplicated or even appreciated!
Hi Lodger - hold on, I'm only human, got up at 7:00 am this morning and started to answer this at 9:00 am! Thanks again - Lionel
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An amazing story Lionel and my apologies, we sometimes get too ahead of ourselves on the Lanarkshire List. I don't mind helping others with their research but there is no point in duplicating the work you may know already or, as some people tend to do here, do research for you that you are capeable of doing by yourself. Genealogy should be a fun hobby and I do feel that some on the list take away the fun of discovery.
What we will try to do for you is to find things at a local level which would be impossible for you to find from the other side of the world. Scotlandspeople is a great site and it is just as accessible to you as it is to us. We will help when you get stuck.
Part of Dalziel civil parish was in the postal town of Wishaw but most of it was in the postal town of Motherwell. In 1925 the two burghs, Motherwell & Wishaw, merged to become the burgh of Motherwell and Wishaw.
According to the Scotlandspeople free index, John Stevenson Bell was born in the civil parish of Cambusnethan (so most likely Wishaw) in 1906.
I am going to find out where, in Wishaw Main Street number 200 is (or was).
Good luck with your research and get back to us once you sort out the muddle we sent!
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Marriage also on Scotlands people
William Ewart G Bell
Mary Pennycook Scott
1904 Cambusnethan
And the birth for John Stevenson Bell 1906 as Lodger has posted
Rosie
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Lionel I see you caught up with your Grannie at last ;) www.findagrave.com
Australian Cemetery Index
Mary Penequick Bell
Died 16 May 1950
Age 72 birth year 1878
Alma Mater Private Hospital Randwick NSW
Interesting story glad we have all been able to help
Rosie
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Mary Pennycuik Whapole Scott
Is there are naming pattern here
Mary (first name) Pennycuik (mothers surname) Whapole (mother's mother's surname) fathers surname (Scott)
My Scottish born Grandmother had a simmilar name pattern, it is a way of preseving the female sides surnames in living history.
Glad, they stopped it before me, or my name would have been longer.
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That 1891 census looks likely, Rosie. 1901 entry has Thomas and Charlotte back in the household:
Elizabeth Scott 48 Employer's Wife (stone Quarrier) b. Motherwell
Thomas H Scott 24
Lottia Scott 23
Maude Scott 14
Alice Scott 12
Jean Davis 16 Visitor
...and four servants
Address: The Green, Cambusnethan Lanark
Yes Monica thought this was the same family and wondered where John was ..This looks like him on the 1901 census address Hydropathic Moffat Dumfrieshire ( must be some sort of hospital/clinic
John Scott age 50 born Airdrie occupation Quarry Master & Brickmaker Freestone
Rosie
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Hi Lionel
We are just eager to add info to what you may have already ;)
Thank you for the background you have given here. Goodness busy and interesting lives1
Monica
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Rosie, from your comments re 1901 and John, this looks to be the Hydropathic here https://canmore.org.uk/site/160066/moffat-old-edinburgh-road-hydropathic-hotel
Odd name for a hotel but linked to its luxurious spa facilities it seems!
Monica
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Divorce papers refs for Mary and William showing here if it is something you are interesting in following up www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/350538
The divorce action mentoned here https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/16507392
Monica
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Lionel, you mentioned Gladstone (as you have referred to him) arriving in NZ no later that October 1906. You were pretty close! I think this is him arriving in Australia in September that year:
William Bell, 25, a musician
Arrival 10 Sep 1906 Sydney, Australia
Departure Port: Liverpool
Ship: Persic
Nationality: British
Monica
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Hi Everybody,
I'm getting swamped with information! Thank you and thanks for offering more assistance, it's really appreciated. I'm not exactly on "the other side of the world", but Germany's still too far from Scotland to do any "on-site" work and one problem with answering quickly is also the 1 hour time shift, meaning that I'm suffering from jet-lag when I get up in the morning!
I see I've made a spelling mistake and this has caused problems here. The correct name of my grandmother was "Mary Pennycuik Whamond Bell (Scott)", but I dictate most of what I write into the computer and if I slur my words they come out wrong; like with "Whapole" instead of "Whamond". And then other problems in newspaper reports with "Pennycuik" being spelled as "Pennycook" and "Pennycock" in newspaper divorce reports in Sydney, Australia. Even the burial broschure from 1950 I have has the name spelled incorrectly.
I have a lot of questions, but will need a few days to catch up on these. So don't think I've forgotten, but I'm also getting replies from the New Zealand government, my half-uncle Adrian in Australia and other sources. Just for amusement, a little while ago, I wrote a fictitious story as to what "could" have happened way back in 1906. Adrian thought it was good and that Gladstone would have been chuffed at playing the role of a 'Lothario' (yes, I had to look it up as well!), but that his mother Joan (no. 3 on the list!") would have remarked "how very silly". Good that she won't be on this year's Pulitzer Prize" jury! I'll hang it on here and I hope it works. Please read page 4 first with an explanation to the story.
Lionel
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Lionel, you mentioned Gladstone (as you have referred to him) arriving in NZ no later that October 1906. You were pretty close! I think this is him arriving in Australia in September that year:
William Bell, 25, a musician
Arrival 10 Sep 1906 Sydney, Australia
Departure Port: Liverpool
Ship: Persic
Nationality: British
Monica
Thanks Monica! This is very probably indeed himself (William always used the name 'Gladstone' and was called 'Gladdie' by his friends) and he must have then carried on to New Zealand. I haven't been able to find any passenger lists, but as you obviously have access, perhaps you can please see if he was travelling alone or with Mary and my father?
Lionel
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Lionel, did Mary have more children with Gladstone in Scotland? If they did, and they were born in NZ, what is the first recorded year you have for a birth there.
Bell is a pretty common surname so anything we can do to try and narrow down year range always helps.
Monica
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Lionel, did Mary have more children with Gladstone in Scotland? If they did, and they were born in NZ, what is the first recorded year you have for a birth there.
Bell is a pretty common surname so anything we can do to try and narrow down year range always helps.
Monica
Hi - After having commented, I remembered having found something similar on a passenger list. Travelling with William Bell was his wife Mary and my 'transvestite' father "Annie" who was under 1 year old! It must be coincidence, but possibly tickets for girl babies cost less than for male babies; so they just changed his clothes from blue to pink and his name from "John" to "Annie"! But to be serious, Mary only had one child and if you'd met my father you would certainly know why ...
Lionel
Lionel
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Not much info to work from on this entry other than ages would fit:
Mrs Bell 36
Master J Bell 9
Left on the 'Arabia' from London and arrived on 24 Dec 1915 at Sydney, Australia.
Further entry for the same two people on the'Arabia' departure from Liverpool and Portland and arrival at Fremantle Western Australia Australia on 8 Dec 1915.
Monica
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See what you mean about how much William liked the use of the name Gladstone...
The family in London for 1911 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW4H-ZJ7:
Mr Gladston Bell 29 Professor of Music b. Sunderland, Durham
Mrs Gladston Bell 31 b. Motherwell, Lanarkshire
J S Bell 5 son b. Wishaw, Lanarkshire
Address 22 Victoria Mansions, Grange Rd, Willesden Green Middlesex
They show as married for 7 years and only one child in the marriage.
Monica
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This entry from Jan 1911 mentions that Gladstone is due back in Sydney in a few months following a trip to Europe https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15246845
The 1911 census was on the night of 2 April.
Monica
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Good find Monica ;)
A record for a John S Bell age 22 ( motor represtentive )
Departure Sidney Australia
Arrival Hull 21 April 1928
Ship Largs Bay
Proposed address in U K c/o AG.Gen for NSW Aust House London
Rosie
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Morning! It's raining outside and I'll try to go back and answer each individual posting here, starting with the first. May take some time, as I have to check on everything.
On top of that, as Lodger said at the start "or, as some people tend to do here, do research for you that you are capeable of doing by yourself." I have done a lot of personal searching and some information coming through has now been duplicated. This refers mainly to newspaper reports in New Zealand (1906 - 1909) and Australia from 1911 to the present day. The New Zealand government first gave me these leads and the only extra information I now need about Gladstone pertains to possible voyages (uncle Adrian mentions stories from his mother to these, but didn't bother to listen at the time) to and from Europe for Gladstone after 1911 and also to his arrival in New Zealand in 1906 for the "Exhibition" starting in November.
Just as extra information, Gladstone is mentioned as having joined the Australian Army in 1941 (age 62), serving on the east coast and later somewhere near Darwin on the north coast. They threw him out at age 65, only for him to find that his wife had been cheating on him with somebody from the Red Cross. On a "never-give-up" baisis, this gave him the welcome opportunity to start an affair with later wife no. 3, Joan - Adrian being born when he was 73! My father was so disgusted he didn't speak for 3 days, though my mother found the situation "very amusing", which angered my father even further. My father died shortly before meeting Adrian, probably for the best, considering that out-of-work, long-haired hippies playing guitars in the shade of coolabah trees was not one of his ideals!
Lionel
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You need to go to www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk for all the original records. Your Scotts' and Kings' births, as you would expect, are all in the indexes ...
Thanks, Forfarien, I've noted everything and will chase up on this. Lionel
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If you do a google search for 9 Glencairn Avenue Wishaw, you will find Glencairn Lodge still standing and inhabited today. That part of Dalziel parish was in the postal town of Wishaw. This confuses a lot of people!
Hi Lodger,
I've had a look at this on Google Earth and I trust that you're right - but how did 3 adults, 9 children under 7 and 3 maids (if living in) fit into this tiny house?
Lionel
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This is possibly John's birth details:
John Scott b. 1 Dec 1850 New Monkland, Lanark,
Parents Robert Scott and Mary Pennycuik
John's marriage or death cert should include his parents' details to let you confirm their details.
Monica
Hi Monica,
This is certainly the connection I'm looking for, especially as a "Mary Pennycuik" is included - but how comes that the 1881 census shows his date and place of birth as being 1851 and Daziel, Lanark? However, the census also shows his sister Mary was born in 1856, 5 years later, in New Monkland, Lanark. Strange ...
Lionel
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Possible marriage for Thomas King Scott
Death for Thomas King Scott
16 September 1939 age 59
Victoria British Columbia
Rosie
Hi Rosie,
I've noted all of this, but it will open a whole new chapter which I will have to follow up on. Thanks!
Lionel
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Probate for Elizabeth Snell King Scott died 16 May 1918 ...
Rosie
Hi, as before I shall be opening a new file for all this.
Lionel
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Three extracts from the burial records of Cambusnethan cemetery, Wishaw.
Thanks Lodger, all has been noted. As soon as I get round to adding this onto the family tree in Geni it will become more transparent.
Lionel
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1881 census from Ancestry.
200 Main Street Wishaw.
SCOTT Robert, head, aged 56 years, hotel keeper, born Bellshill Lanarkshire.
SCOTT Mary P. Wife, aged 55, hotel keepers assistant, born New Monkland Lanarkshire.
GILCHRIST Agnes, daughter, aged 32, born New Monkland.
Hi,
More information, has been noted. But what has happend to the husband of Agnes Scott (Gilchrist)?
Lionel
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Three more burials from Cambusnethan cemetery.
I've added this information to the previous 3 you posted.
By the way, I see you are looking for a "Torrence in Hamilton" - probably no connection, but my father's best friend before and after WW2 was a "Bert Gillon", whose wife was a "Betty (Elizabeth?) Torrence" from Kilmarnock. Her mother was "lent" to me as a grandmother, as i didn't have one (or so I was told, anyway).
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This might be a possibility on the 1891 census Hamilton Road Maryfield Dalziel
Rosie
Thanks, Rosie - all has been noted.
Lionel
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That 1891 census looks likely, Rosie. 1901 entry has Thomas and Charlotte back in the household:
Monica
Hi, I'm not too sure if this is 1891 or 1901 and which family this is, Monica. Thomas H. should be Thomas K. Scott and I don't see a Charlotte in your list. If it's "my" John Scott, then he was a merchant for Wines and Spirits and not a Quarrier. And he's missing here. Any suggestions?
Lionel
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From the Wills & Testament database on Scotlands People, there is this entry:
Elizabeth Snell Scott
3/6/1919
or King, Rathmore, Lenzie, d. 16/05/1918 at Skelmorlie, testate.
Monica
All has been noted. Thanks.
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"This might be a possibility on the 1891 census Hamilton Road Maryfield Dalziel"
Thanks, interesting, has been noted.
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Memento-Mori shows Elizabeth and daughter Charlotte's burial place at Auld Isle Cemetery and Burial Ground in Kirkintilloch Dunbartonshire.
Monica
We're almost getting into modern times. Pity there is no information as to the gravestones or what condition ther're in. How do you know that John Scott is part of the "family"?
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Mmm...think John Scott may have predeceased Elizabeth. ... Confirmation was granted to her daughter Charlotte Elizabeth Snell Scott or Smith residing at Ingleholm, South Beach, Troon
Monica
I missed out on the last post, but here again - where does the name "Smith" come in, I don't understand the connection. What I'm certain of, is that we had two relatives who lived in Johannesburg, S.A. They were always referred to as "Jack's aunts" (though probably cousins as he was born in 1906). I think they were named "Betty Smith" and "Nora Meadows", although I'm not too sure. I visited them in S.A. in 1968 and presume they were both about 70 then. Maybe there's a connection here.
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Part of Dalziel civil parish was in the postal town of Wishaw but most of it was in the postal town of Motherwell. In 1925 the two burghs, Motherwell & Wishaw, merged to become the burgh of Motherwell and Wishaw. According to the Scotlandspeople free index, John Stevenson Bell was born in the civil parish of Cambusnethan (so most likely Wishaw) in 1906.
I have my father's birth certificate and it is definitely "Wishaw".
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Marriage also on Scotlands people
William Ewart G Bell
Mary Pennycook Scott
1904 Cambusnethan
Rosie
I didn't know where as to now. Thanks.
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Lionel I see you caught up with your Grannie at last ;) www.findagrave.com - Australian Cemetery Index
Mary Penequick Bell
Rosie
Unforunately her grave could look better ... but in Germany they just dig up all your remains with a mechanical digger after 25 years and that's the end of your "eternal resting place".
I shall be "buried" 200 yards off the beach and near the lighthouse of the isle of "Ailsa Craig" (Girvan, Ayrshire). Bumping along the seabed keeps one fit!
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Mary Pennycuik Whapole Scott
Is there are naming pattern here
Apparently, so I've read, it was also common in some parts of Scotland for the wife to retain her maiden name after marrriage.
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1901 entry has Thomas and Charlotte back in the household: Elizabeth Scott 48 Employer's Wife (stone Quarrier) b. Motherwell. Address: The Green, Cambusnethan Lanark
Monica thought this was the same family and wondered where John was ..This looks like him on the 1901 census address Hydropathic Moffat Dumfrieshire (must be some sort of hospital/clinic.)
Rosie
A hydropathic institute was (quote): "a 19th century spa building, usually consisting of a hotel with baths used for water treatment" As hydro means "water" I suppose it is similar to the Thalasso spas of today. This form of spa treatment was very popular in Germany until around 1985 when medical insurance stopped paying for most of the "cures". If you had light medical problems (heart, lungs, bone joints, overweight, depression etc.) the local doctor put in a request and off you went for 8 weeks. Every day started with baths, massage, medical check-ups and after lunch the rest of the day was free: walking in the woods, sitting in cafes, dancing in the evening. Everybody had a single stylish room with a shower and toilet but one had to be in by 22:30, Saturdays 23:00. Weekends were free of appointments. But there were side effects, "Kurschatten" being one of them - many patients were married, not appreciated, bored and run down. After the first week they had recovered, looked better, felt better and it was fertile ground for having an affair. So within no time at all one had a girl- or boyfriend who was called a "Kurschatten" or "cure shadow) to follow one around for the next 7 weeks. Yes - the good old days, but a lot of marriages were ruined by the system ...
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Your grandfather must have been quite a guy Lionel. "Ganze geil" auf Deutsch. There must be something in the water here in Wishaw ;D It comes from the resevoir at Daer in the Leadhills, perhaps it's the lead? If you know the old expression about lead and pencils :P
If you let me know where in Wishaw your father was born, I will have a look and, if the house has survived, I'll send a picture (unless you already have one?).
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Odd name for a hotel but linked to its luxurious spa facilities it seems!
Monica
As explained just now, I doubt if it would have been classified or named as a hotel - although the "Moffat Holiday Inn Hydropathic" could have been a real fun option! Thanks for the photo!
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Divorce papers refs for Mary and William showing here
Monica
Yes, I have this information already, but you should see the newspaper report on divorce no. 2 with "Enid Muriel Bell (Tawyer)" - even the "Daily Mirror" in London would have died laughing.
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Not much info to work from on this entry other than ages would fit:
Mrs Bell 36
Master J Bell 9
Monica
I doubt if this could be he - travelling back to Australia with the family in the middle of WW1 with the chance of being sunk by a submarine is something I would not have done. I would have gone on ahead until the situation changed. You never know who you might meet on the ship ...
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See what you mean about how much William liked the use of the name Gladstone... The family in London for 1911 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW4H-ZJ7:
Monica
This was very interesting, thanks, he must have been on his way out to Australia, though I thought he had probaly gone a month or so earlier.
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Wow! That's really airing your dirty laundry in public, I can imagine how scandalised everyone must have been. What a find.
A "Hydro" is a term everyone here in Scotland is probably aware of, there were several Hydropathics around the country. Crieff Hydro and Dunblane Hydro are two which are still going strong. There was one at Seamill and another up north, Strathpeffer I think.
The one at Crieff (I was there to meet an elderly cousin a few weeks ago) used to be a "Temperance Hotel", which meant that it did not sell alcohol of any kind, not sure if it was the same rule for all the others but I wouldn't be surprised. It was the Victorian "healthy body - healthy mind idea.
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This entry from Jan 1911 mentions that Gladstone is due back in Sydney in a few months following a trip to Europe https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15246845
Monica
Yes, I have this - he was supposed to be back at the end of March 1911 bus the census is from 02.04.1911 and it took around 40 days to get to Australia .
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Good find Monica ;)
A record for a John S Bell age 22 ( motor represtentive )
Rosie
Great! He was indeed a "motor repsentative" though I have no great ideas as to what he actually did between 1928 and 1939. I have some old photos, taken starting in 1931 but otherwise without dates. The album is the property of "Eng. J. Stevenson Bell, 'The Bungalow', Thorn Drive, Bearsden, Scotland" although why the "Eng." I don't know. The album contains photos (suprise!) of the Clyde shipbuilding yards, docks in Glasgow, planes at Renfrew and the "Tam O' Shanter" Inn in Ayr of Burns' fame ("Auld Ayr, wham ne're a town supasses for honest men and bonnie lasses" - sorry, I'm a Burns' and an Ayr fan). Other photos show freighters and tankers on which he was obviously not a passenger, but not necessarily working: "SS Copeland", "SS Varna" (sunk 1941), motor yacht "Musme" transferring from Falmouth to the Clyde in 3 days and the "SS Arenia". The photo attached comes from a similar photo album just found in Adrian's possession and was obvious taken from the "Largs Bay" in 1928.
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Your grandfather must have been quite a guy Lionel. "Ganze geil" auf Deutsch. There must be something in the water here in Wishaw. It comes from the resevoir at Daer in the Leadhills, perhaps it's the lead? If you know the old expression about lead and pencils: If you let me know where in Wishaw your father was born, I will have a look and, if the house has survived, I'll send a picture (unless you already have one?).
Hi Lodger,
I beg to correct - it's "ganz geil" - but it fits perfectly!
Unfortunately I have no idea where my father was born; just Wishaw, but maybe Daziel?
Lionel
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Lionel, Dalziel is a civil parish, just the same as Cambusnethan. The only difference being that there is a village in the parish of Cambusnethan called Cambusnethan! Also in the same parish is the town of Wishaw, the villages of Waterloo, Newmains and Overtown.
There is no village or town called Dalziel, just the parish.
Pity the birth certificate only give "Wishaw" as place of birth.
Sorry about my rusty German, I haven't used it in decades.
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That 1891 census looks likely, Rosie. 1901 entry has Thomas and Charlotte back in the household:
Monica
Hi, I'm not too sure if this is 1891 or 1901 and which family this is, Monica. Thomas H. should be Thomas K. Scott and I don't see a Charlotte in your list. If it's "my" John Scott, then he was a merchant for Wines and Spirits and not a Quarrier. And he's missing here. Any suggestions?
Lionel
Lionel ...Lottie is short for Charlotte you will see there is also a Maude listed this would be Catherine Maud Scott born 1886 in Hamilton she died 1981 Glasgow age 94 ..mothers maiden name King ..John Scott could have had a change of occupation maybe getting the marriage for your Grandmother will confirm her father's occupation ..Thomas H could have been a transcription error
Rosie
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Sorry about my rusty German, I haven't used it in decades.
Don't worry about your German - when my 21-year old daughter died, I took my German wife to Ayr. She (still) always maintains that she understands English very "good". Well, she doesn't! But confronted with the friendly natives and their "tatties", "kirks" and whatever, and that in a dialect that has nothing to do with Oxford English with a German accent, she just wilted. Since then one of my favourite "non-jokes" is to explain to dinner guests that she speaks "a very good accent with almost no English at all."
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Lionel ...Lottie is short for Charlotte you will see there is also a Maude listed this would be Catherine Maud Scott born 1886 in Hamilton she died 1981 Glasgow age 94 ..mothers maiden name King ..John Scott could have had a change of occupation maybe getting the marriage for your Grandmother will confirm her father's occupation ..Thomas H could have been a transcription error
Rosie
The mists of Loch Ness clear to reveal the truth! Thank you! Lionel
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Hello again Lionel,
Guess what? It stopped raining today!
So, I took a walk over to the cemetery (Cambusnethan) and, after a bit of a false start because of the section plan notice which gives the position of section A as being left of the gate. After a bit of sleuthing (just call me Sherlock) and because I did my homework before going, I discovered that the first 60 or so plots in section A, are on the other side of the cemetery, against the south wall of the private walled cemetery.
Anyway, I found the grave of Robert Scott & Mary Pennycuik, also the grave of their daughter, Jeanie Gray.
I may have to make a few posts to fit all the pictures in.
Sadly, Robert and Mary's monument had been a very large obelisk which in now (probably for safety reasons) lying in front of the next gravestone.
Robert and Mary, plus their 3 sons, are in illustrious company! The next plot is the family burial ground of the Stewart's of Murdostoun. Buried there is Sir Robert King Stewart of Murdoestoun, Knight of the Thistle, Commander of the British Empire and Lord Lieutentant of Lanarkshire.
It is the huge red granite monument in a few of the pictures.
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This is is grave of Jeanie Gray and, as you can see, it's a modern stone with the names of younger generations. The Stewart of Murdoestoun plot and a couple of others stand between Jeanie and her parents.
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A few more views.
No doubt some daftie will be on Scotlandspeople giving you chapter and verse of the Macmillam & Borland connection. It takes all the pleasure out of it for you but that wont stop her.
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Hello again Lionel,
Guess what? It stopped raining today!
Hi Lodger!
I was just closing down my computers (one hour later here) when your posts came in. Fantastic, especially that you've taken all the trouble to get these photos (maybe on your next trip you could put the obelisk back on the gravestone ...!).
On Monday I'll start sorting out all these people and adding them on to the family tree. It's getting more complicated from day to day and I'm not even going to start to ask who Macmillam and Borland are/were. However, what is sad is that one month ago I neither had the name of Mary P.W Scott's father nor had ever had any contact to her relatives although they were just round the corner when I was young. It will be interesting to see if any living relatives turn up later.
Thanks again and have a good weekend - it's about 32° C here!
Lionel
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On Monday I'll start sorting out all these people and adding them on to the family tree. It's getting more complicated from day to day and I'm not even going to start to ask who Macmillam and Borland are/were.
Lionel
Hi Everybody,
I've just spent the last 2 days developing an Excel sheet for the Scott family (it's much easier than trying to do it on Geni or MyHeritage or so and you can extend it in all directions putting in every detail you can find.) I've now put in everything you sent me, checking information where necessary etc. As of now "John Scott", father of my grandmother, was the son of Robert Scott, who had no less than 8 children! Must have been rich with nerves like steel ...
As of yet I haven't started to work through the names and find out what happened to them all. I've been using "ScotlandsPeople", but even there there "search and find" doesn't seem to function all the time. Which annoys me as well, having payed MyHeritage for access to their near 10 billion documents. They have none of the Scots censuses which I need and I couldn't even find my grandparents and father on the 1911 census in England (which I think Monica found for me - thanks!)
One question (at the moment) which I still have is that on the photos Lodger was kind enough to post, on the one tombstone one of the sons of Robert Scott sen. is given as "James". I have no James on my tree and there has been no reference to him. I have tried "ScotlandsPeople", but with no result. Anybody have an idea?
And, of course, I still have another question. On the photo of the grave stone for "Macmillam and Borland" the right side has been cut off, so that the name Macmillam is only half there. Normally this (not using capitals) would be MacMillam and I was wondering if it is in fact "MacMillan" as in Clan MacMillan. The reason for asking this, is that it was always stated that "we" belonged the Clan MacMillan, presumeably on my grandfather's side of the family; which can't be correct, his coming from Sunderland. So where does the information come from on the Scott's side?
Lionel
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Lionel, go back to the photographs and you will find a scroll bar at the bottom. Move it along and you will see the whole picture.
I'm not entirely satisfied that the picture I sent of Glencairn Lodge is the actual house. It may well have been the gatehouse. I will check this out on Thursday or Friday.
I would put all thoughts of a "clan" to the back of your mind for the moment. The clan system did not exist in the Lowlands of Scotland, despite what some foreigners say. As for the spelling of surnames, take your pick, they are all correct because they are all pronounced the same.
I've searched the cemetery records and James Scott doesn't seem to be buried anywhere in the cemetery, I read the date of death as 11th February 1896 and there isn't a corresponding interment.
He is in the old parochial register for New Monkland, born 25th February 1853. (correct parents).
There is a death in the St Andrew's district of Edinburgh in 1896 for a James Scott aged 48 years. I wonder if that could be him? The entry number is low, No.77, which would make sense for early February.
There is one for St Giles district of Edinburgh, aged 46 years but the entry number is 975 and there couldn't possibly have been almost a thousand deaths in one district in the first 6 or 7 weeks of the year.
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1901 entry has Thomas and Charlotte back in the household: Elizabeth Scott 48 Employer's Wife (stone Quarrier) b. Motherwell. Address: The Green, Cambusnethan Lanark. Monica thought this was the same family and wondered where John was ..This looks like him on the 1901 census address Hydropathic Moffat Dumfrieshire (must be some sort of hospital/clinic.)
Rosie
Hi - just for interest's sake:
Quote: "History of Moffat Town: Moffat is a former burgh and spa town in Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland, lying on the River Annan, with a current population of around 2,500. It was during the 17th century that Moffat began to grow from a small village into a popular spa town. The sulphurous waters of Moffat Spa were believed to have healing properties and during the Victorian era the high demand led to the water being piped down from the well to a specially built bath house in the town centre (now the Town Hall). Luxurious hotels sprang up to accommodate the increasing numbers of tourists. One such hotel opened during Moffat’s heyday in 1878, Moffat’s Hydropathic hotel was destroyed in a fire in 1921.
Lionel
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I'm not entirely satisfied that the picture I sent of Glencairn Lodge is the actual house. It may well have been the gatehouse. I will check this out on Thursday or Friday.
I would put all thoughts of a "clan" to the back of your mind for the moment. The clan system did not exist in the Lowlands of Scotland, despite what some foreigners say. As for the spelling of surnames, take your pick, they are all correct because they are all pronounced the same.
I've searched the cemetery records and James Scott doesn't seem to be buried anywhere in the cemetery, I read the date of death as 11th February 1896 and there isn't a corresponding interment. He is in the old parochial register for New Monkland, born 25th February 1853. (correct parents).
Hi Lodger,
You may be right with the "Lodge", even though days were different I still don't know how so many family and 3 servants all fitted in there. But then, what happend to the Lodge itself?
Your comment to "clans" makes me feel like an American tourist on a bus tour to Culloden Field. The clan angle doesn't interest me so much, but here it's different. This obsession with the Clan MacMillian didn't come by chance and somebody must have dragged my father all the way from Wishaw into the photographers studio in 1910 and made him dress up in full tribal costume with a goldfish. (see photo). They did the same with me later ... On top of that my mother bought my first wife a long evening dress in clan hunting (blue/green) colours. This didn't all just happen by chance and there's more behind the issue.
Thanks for the new information as to James Scott and I'll follow it up. Yesterday a search request on WikiTree came in from sombody searching for a Margaret King (Scott) Black, father James Scott, no details, mother Helen Blackie Kerr. Others mentioned in that family are Jane Ormiston Scott and Isabella King (Scott) Gray. I've sent them an email and am waiting for a reply, but so many Scotts, Kings and a Gray is at least unusual.
Lionel
Lionel
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I would put all thoughts of a "clan" to the back of your mind for the moment. The clan system did not exist in the Lowlands of Scotland, despite what some foreigners say. As for the spelling of surnames, take your pick, they are all correct because they are all pronounced the same.
So if anybody wants something to chortle about, how about Yours-truely dressed up like Bonnie Prince Charlie in MacMillan clan tartan - unfortunately missing a Sgian Dubh. Everything was made from scratchy coarse wooly sheep and itched all over. Luckily I did not have to go to school wearing it, otherwise the term "mobbing" would have turned up years ago. But as you see, being a part of Clan MacMillan isn't something I just thought up. My first book to read at home was "A History of Scotland" with a large drawing of Robert the Bruce sitting in his cave muttering about spiders and the nasty English/French. I was fascinated!
Lionel
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Hi - just for interest's sake:
Quote: "History of Moffat Town: Moffat is a former burgh and spa town in Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland, lying on the River Annan, with a current population of around 2,500. It was during the 17th century that Moffat began to grow from a small village into a popular spa town. The sulphurous waters of Moffat Spa were believed to have healing properties and during the Victorian era the high demand led to the water being piped down from the well to a specially built bath house in the town centre (now the Town Hall). Luxurious hotels sprang up to accommodate the increasing numbers of tourists. One such hotel opened during Moffat’s heyday in 1878, Moffat’s Hydropathic hotel was destroyed in a fire in 1921.
Unfortunately this article does not contain the far more useful facts as far as family history are concerned, namely that Moffat is the principal town in the parish of the same name in the County of Dumfries.
You will fail if you look for historical records in 'Dumfries and Galloway' because 'Dumfries and Galloway' as a formally defined local authority area did not exist before 1975.
I recommend reading the articles in the Statistical Accounts of Scotland at https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/parish/Dumfries/Moffat if you are interested in the history of Moffat, rather than the rather superficial and too recent article you have quoted.
Even the Wikipedia article is more comprehensive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moffat
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Hi - just for interest's sake:
Luxurious hotels sprang up to accommodate the increasing numbers of tourists. One such hotel opened during Moffat’s heyday in 1878, Moffat’s Hydropathic hotel was destroyed in a fire in 1921.
Unfortunately this article does not contain the far more useful facts as far as family history are concerned.
Hi, you're certainly right as regards "Moffat" goes, but my intention was only to clarify what a Hydropathic Hotel was, as other members here (to include myself) didn't know what it was or why it had such a strange name. And just by chance I found the short explanation.
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There were Hydros (short for Hydropathic Hotel) in several places in Scotland - Forres, Crieff, Strathpeffer, Dunblane spring to mind - and also in England. All of them were hotels where people went to 'take the waters' - corresponding to spas in contintental Europe. Most of them were large buildings with a lot of accommodation and many still operate as large hotels.
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Hi Everybody,
I've just spent the last 2 days developing an Excel sheet for the Scott family (it's much easier than trying to do it on Geni or MyHeritage or so and you can extend it in all directions putting in every detail you can find.) I've now put in everything you sent me, checking information where necessary etc. As of now "John Scott", father of my grandmother, was the son of Robert Scott, who had no less than 8 children! Must have been rich with nerves like steel ...
Lionel
Hi!
And now a year has passed since this last comment and I'm still working on it. Amazing what all the help I received has led to - thanks again everyone, especially to "Lodger".
When I started last year I had just found out the correct name of my grandmother and the first name of her father. In the meantime, we're back to John Scott (1781) and Agnes (Brownlie) Scott (1791) and their sons James (who I still can't find later than 1841) and Robert, leading up to the present day. The problem now is that although I've even found the wedding of my grandmother in Wishaw and the fact that my father was born there in "The Green" in 1906, John Scott, reported in the paper as "Col. Scott, V.D, V.C, J.P.", just disappeared after the wedding. And that, despite the fact that he was obviously very well known. Most members have also disappeared, while others I've found are difficult to identify due to multiple names being used - so my "Auntie Lottie of my first years was probably "Charlotte Elizabeth Snell King". It's frustrating to know that there must be whole families out there and I still can't find even one connection to the present day which would fill in the rest of the story.
But here is the newspaper report of the wedding to include a special train from Glasgow for the guests (original attached):
Sunderland Daily Echo Monday, 12.09.1904 - Marriage of Mr Gladstone Bell.
Mr William Ewart Gladstone Bell, the youngest son of our townsman Mr. Stephenson Bell, was married on Saturday afternoon to Miss Mary Scott, second daughter of Col. Scott, V.D, V.C, J.P., of Auchenlen, and North Shaws, and the Green, Wishaw, Scotland. The wedding took place at Wishaw, which was en fete for the occasion, the whole village being beautified and decorated. A special train from Glasgow conveyed a number of the guests and the wedding party was a large one. The ceremony was performed by the Rev. Alex. Harper, M.A., in the Parish Church. This had been specially decorated for the wedding, and when the party assembled the site was a very pretty one. The bride's dress consisted of white crepe de Chine trimmed with Brussels lace, and having a court train of white satin. It was very prettily decorated. She wore a Brussels lace veil, and a wreath of orange blossom and myrtle, and carried a bouquet of white heather and lilies of the valley. She was attended by seven bridesmaids, and was given away by her father, Col. Scott. Mr. Edward A. Scott, of Liverpool, acted as groomsman. Special music was rendered in the church, and when the bridal pair and wedding party returned to the home of the bride's parents they were preceded up the drive by Highland pipers playing lively tunes. Subsequently a reception was held at the Green, and was attended by many guests anxious to express their good wishes for the welfare of the newly married pair. A string band performed in the grounds, and at night a dance was held. The bride and bridegroom left at five o'clock to proceed on their wedding tour among the Italian lakes. The bride's travelling dress was of heliotrope voile, trimmed with apple-green velvet. Her hat was of white beaver, trimmed with heliotrope and having white tulle strings. The pair were the recipients of about 230 handsome presents."
Hope this is of interest to somebody!
Lionel
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I think the place mentioned is Auchenlea rather than Auchenlen. The valuation rolls list John Scott as the proprietor of a farm, quarry and brickwork at Auchenlea or Auchenled, parish of Shotts in 1905, 1915, 1920 and 1925.
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Well done Lionel, that was quite a wedding!
Forfarian, you are right (as usual!) Auchenlea Brickworks was in Cleland, which was in the civil parish of Shotts.
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Och, well, it helps if you've come across places in your own tree.
My 4th great-grand-aunt Elizabeth Storry of Braco (parish of Shotts) married Captain William Cleland of Auchenlee/Auchinlie, (parish of Shotts), in 1723. They eventually became the great-grandparents of Sir James Young Simpson, whose family is quite well documented.
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Hi!
Thanks for the additional information, it seems strange that Greatgrandfather has just disappeared from Wishaw (eg. census 1911). Maybe he was just chasing my grandfather round the world after he found out he'd been cheating on this daughter!
One question I have though is that John Scott is reported as being a colonel with "V.D, V.C, J.P" after his name. I can't find "V.D." (in this context anyway!) and he doesn't appear in the list of Victoria Crosses. I presume that J.P. means Justice of the Peace, but there is no record I can find to confirm this. Hoping to find something out, I sent an email (with the wedding info.) to the four "politicians" responsible for Wishaw, but firstly nobody answered and two still haven't bothered to reply. I don't expect everybody to get excited to help me, but it is Wishaw history and hoping to get reelected they should have enough sense to just say: "Very interesting, good luck, but I'm sorry I can't help". However, one suggested contacting the "Motherwell Heritage Centre", which I still have to do.
One bit of luck I had was while searching for photos in the attic. When I was born my mother set up a "Diary of Lionel Winston Bell" (please no comment!) and at the front, there's a telegram pasted in with "Congratulations from all at 54, Belmont Street" and stamped "Glasgow". At the bottom, there is a scribbled note in ink stating "Auntie Lottie Smith, Betty and Nora & Auntie Ellie Scott & Auntie Maude Scott. This all fits in with the John Scott family and I actually met up with my father's "aunts" (Betty Smith and Nora Meadows - obviously cousins) who were living together in Johannesburg, S.A. in 1968. The deeper you get into this, the worse it becomes!
Lionel
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I could be wrong but I think VD in this context is 'Volunteer Division'. VC is usually 'Victoria Cross' and JP is 'Justice of the Peace'.
As he was a colonel, have you tried the records of Army officers in The National Archives https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ ?
JPs were appointed by the county council, so there surely must be some record in the archives of Lanark County Council?
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Interesting notes here:
21/05/1897 – Motherwell Times – Major Scott of Motherwell takes over the Auchinlea Estates. A few weeks ago it was publicly announced that the lands of Auchinlea and North Shaws, belonging to Colonel Buchanan, Drumpellier, had been purchased by Major Scott, Motherwell. The lands are rich in mineral, containing the famed Auchinlea freestone, partly leased by Messrs Taylor & King, and Messrs T. Gibb & Sons. Coal is also being worked Messrs Greenhill Colliery Company, Limited. The purchase by Major Scott has given the most lively satisfaction. He is the sole partner of the firm of Thomas King & Co., Bellside Quarries and Brickworks and Greenhill Quarries, and the largest employer of labour in the district...........
www.scottishbrickhistory.co.uk/greenhill-colliery-and-brickworks-cleland-north-lanarkshire/
Monica
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Thanks, Monica!
You beat me to it, I was just about to put this in having searched for the brickworks in Google!
It seems that John Scott must have been a parttime office in the local territorial army and the "VD" apparently stands for "Volunteer Officer’s Decoration". The "VC" I can't identify as nobody of this name is listed. So I'll just keep on looking.
By-the-way, does anybody know what happened to the house "The Green" in Wishaw where everybody lived and where my father was born? I can't find any other information than what "Lodger" gave me last year.
Lionel
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Lionel, did you confirm that the death for Elizabeth that we found much earlier was the correct one? Just thinking it might help to confirm it and from it establish whether husband John had already died to try to narrow down his death year window.
Monica
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I do not have a subs to the BNA, but this looks like John Scott's death:
THE WISHAW PRESS AND ADVERTISER. DEATH OF COLONEL JOHN SCOTT
... PRESS AND ADVERTISER. DEATH OF COLONEL JOHN SCOTT Former Commander of Scottish Ridge Battalion The death of Colonel John Scott, late of Rathmore. Lenzie, removes of the diminishing band of old Volunteer ...
Friday 08 July 1932
www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk
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From the Wills & Testament database on Scotlands People, there is this entry:
Elizabeth Snell Scott
3/6/1919
or King, Rathmore, Lenzie, d. 16/05/1918 at Skelmorlie, testate.
Glasgow Sheriff Court Wills
SC36/51/183
Second document (Inventory) indexed with ref: SC36/48/298
Monica
Location for Elizabeth matches with John Scott's death details in the newspaper obit. So she looks to have predeceased him.
Monica
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Also from the BNA site (as showing on the index):
At Skelmorlie, on the 16th mst.,' Elizabeth Smell King. ,beloved wife of Colonel John Scott of Auchinlea. Shotts, and Rathmore, Lenzie
Saturday 25 May 1918 in the Hamilton Advertiser
Monica
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From the Glasgow Herald, John Scott's death - https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=GGgVawPscysC&dat=19320704&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
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Memento-Mori shows Elizabeth and daughter Charlotte's burial place at Auld Isle Cemetery and Burial Ground in Kirkintilloch Dunbartonshire. The fact that they are listed indicates that there remains a gravestone on the plot(s).
www.memento-mori.co.uk/3.pdf
Elizabeth and daughter Charlotte and a granddaughter
Elizabeth Snell Scott (King) 1918
Charlotte King Scott 1966
Elizabeth King Scott 1974
There is a John Scott showing there for 1932, but no age still showing on the gravestone likely.
Monica
Now that we have been able to confirm that John died in 1932, he must likely be the John we found referenced above?
memento-mori is your main source for further details. Find a Grave have only got 35% of the 173 memorials at this cemetery photographed www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2400540/kirkintilloch-auld-aisle-cemetery
Monica
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Green House (I'm guessing this is "The Green") is shown on this map.
The area is now very built-up and all the Green buildings have gone. This map dates from 1897.
The road is Castlehill Road and the area is Gowkthrapple.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/82893099
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Lionel, did you confirm that the death for Elizabeth that we found much earlier was the correct one?
Monica
Hi!
As stated last year, I went through everything anybody sent me and documented it on an Excel sheet. This included anything you found and has been continuously updated with censuses, marriages, births, baptisims etc. As regards the wife of John Scott I have the following:
John Scott: 1875 Married (22.06.1875) to Elizabeth Snell King (Scott), (b. 1852 in Dalziel (parents Thomas King / Charlotte Snell, married 08.09.1839) - died 16.05.1918 in Skelmorlie, Ayrshire, buried Kirkintilloch, East Dunbartonshire, Scotland - Sister: Mary Ann King (Whamond) married William Whamond in Dalziel, Lanarkshire in 1866.)
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From the Glasgow Herald, John Scott's death - https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=GGgVawPscysC&dat=19320704&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
Monica - Fantastic, thank you!
You've not only found out where and when he died, we now have the name of the son-in-law - R. W. Smith - which has always been missing.
This again ties up with the sisters "Betty Smith" and "Nora Meadows", 1968 in South Africa, daughters of my grandmother's sister "Charlotte Elizabeth Snell King Smith (Scott) (b. 1878)." who died 1966, buried Kirkintilloch, East Dunbartonshire, Scotland.
I presume "Nora Meadows (Smith)" died in S.A and "Betty" returned to Scotland, dying on 08.11.1974 and also buried in Kirkintilloch.
Lionel
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Green House (I'm guessing this is "The Green") is shown on this map.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/82893099
Hi Lodger,
Thanks! Looking at the map up close, one can see the long tree-lined drive leading to this enormous house. This goes with the wedding: "... and when the bridal pair and wedding party returned to the home of the bride's parents they were preceded up the drive by Highland pipers playing lively tunes. Subsequently, a reception was held at the Green, and was attended by many guests". Considering that they received "230 handsome presents" and a special train from Glasgow had been arranged, there must have been around 500 people, to inlude "the locals", present!
Lionel
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Extracted from the 1893 Wishaw Directory.
No sign of any Scotts.
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He certainly is referenced in a number of places as being a JP :-\ From the 1903, Part 1 - Slater's Royal National Commercial Directory of Scotland ... https://digital.nls.uk/directories/browse/archive/90689773?mode=transcription
Monica
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...we now have the name of the son-in-law - R. W. Smith - which has always been missing.
These looks to be their wedding details:
Charlotte E S K Scott and Robert W Smith
Marriage License 27 Mar 1914 in Manhattan, New York City, New York, USA
Monica
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...we now have the name of the son-in-law - R. W. Smith - which has always been missing.
These looks to be their wedding details:
Charlotte E S K Scott and Robert W Smith
Marriage License 27 Mar 1914 in Manhattan, New York City, New York, USA
Monica
You did it again, Monica - thanks! I wonder if they were just visiting or if the daughters Elizabeth and Nora were born there - I haven't even their dates of birth, but now I'll have a look in the USA.
Lionel
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With the reference to the NY marriage for Charlotte, tried to confirm any further details for Charlotte but not really seeing anything so far.
We believe she and husband Robert were in Glasgow c. 1932 when father John Scott died at their residence (from the Glasgow Herald clip). We also have a reference on the gravestone in Kirkintilloch. However, without confirmimg, I assumed too much (which I normally don't ::)).
We had the following details:
Memento-Mori shows Elizabeth and daughter Charlotte's burial place at Auld Isle Cemetery and Burial Ground in Kirkintilloch Dunbartonshire. The fact that they are listed indicates that there remains a gravestone on the plot(s).
www.memento-mori.co.uk/3.pdf
Elizabeth and daughter Charlotte and a granddaughter
Elizabeth Snell Scott (King) 1918
Charlotte King Scott 1966
Elizabeth King Scott 1974
There is a John Scott showing there for 1932, but no age still showing on the gravestone likely.
Death details for Elizabeth, mother, have been confirmed.
Whilst Charlotte is mentioned on the stone, I cannot see a corresponding death entry on the index on SP for 1966. Died elsewhere? There may be more details on the stone itself. Remember the details from memento-mori are just from the index.
The Elizabeth King Scott showing on the stone I think looks to be Charlotte's sister likely. I don't think she married as there is no corresponding second surname on the index:
ELIZABETH KING SCOTT
Age 91
1974
621/ 859
Glasgow, Park Circus
Cert would need to checked to verify this is correct... ::)
Monica
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THE WISHAW PRESS AND ADVERTISER. DEATH OF COLONEL JOHN SCOTT
... PRESS AND ADVERTISER. DEATH OF COLONEL JOHN SCOTT Former Commander of Scottish Ridge Battalion The death of Colonel John Scott, late of Rathmore. Lenzie, removes of the diminishing band of old Volunteer ...
Friday 08 July 1932
www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk
Maybe his obit could include further details on his children?
Monica
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Hi Monica,
I think somewhere in here we have a mistake. You didn't tell me where you obtained the information to the marriage of Charlotte E. S. K. Scott and Robert W. Smith, so I can't yet check it, but I'm sure it's correct. What I'm not sure about, is the date of marriage in 1914. Charlotte was born in 1878 and at the time of her marriage, would have been 36 years of age. This is rather old, even now, to start having children, but she went on to have two daughters. As stated, I met "Betty" Smith and Nora Meadows in Johannesburg, South Africa, in 1968 and both were around 65 years of age. Not old and demented, but certainly not 53 years or younger, which they should have been, given that they were born later than 1915. But they were certainly the daughters of Charlotte, as proved by the telegram to my parents received in 1944 at my birth (Auntie Lottie with Betty and Nora, 54, Belmont Street, Glasgow).
In addition, while talking to them, they recounted that their grandfather's sister - (Mary Scott King, born 1855), had married "a man" (presumably Alexander C. King, born 1867) who was 10 years younger than she. And he never even found out! (I suppose this says something for knitting your own nightdresses from scratchy woolly Cambusnethan sheep!) In any case, they were definitely Charlotte's daughters and I would suppose that both were in their late 60s at the time . Is it possible therefore that the marriage took place in New York in 1904 and not in 1914?
According to the information I've collected, John Scott married Elizabeth Snell King, (b. 1852 in Dalziel) on 22.06.1875 and who died 16.05.1918 in Skelmorlie, Ayrshire, buried Kirkintilloch, East Dunbartonshire. As you've already suggested, she died before John Scott (d. 1932 in Glasgow at the house of his son-in-law Robert W. Smith). However, the obituary you sent me from the newspaper, states that he was "late of Rathmore, Lenzie" which is only five minutes from Kirkintilloch. Your other remark, on the death of Elizabeth King Scott at the age of 91, agrees with being the sister of my grandmother Mary and of Charlotte, who was born in 1883 and in 1944 was also living with the others in Glasgow.
As regards the obituary of John Scott in the Whishaw Press, I shall have to see if I can access this on My Heritage or Find My Past. But I've read the same text elsewhere, I think military, and there was no further information of any value. However the search functions of My Heriatge are absolutely catastrophic. Some months ago I put in a search for the obituary of a relative in the local newspaper "Sydney Morning Herald" in Sydney, Australia on September 9th 1950, publication date. I had already found it on an Australian newspaper website. My Heritage came up with 628,510 results, over 100,000 from no layter than 1922 in the USA and a further 40,000 in Pennsylvania, USA. I would then have had to gone through the remaining over almost 300,000 possibilities in Australian newspapers. Just makes me sick having to pay for something which doesn't work even when the information is there.
So now we are all up to date again - thanks for all the trouble you're going to!
Lionel
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Hi Lionel
The marriage details I found on the New York, Marriage License Indexes, 1907-2018 on Ancestry. Just indexes, no original images unfortunately which is a pity.
If Charlotte and daughters were in Glasgow in the mid 1940s, wonder where Charlotte actually died?
Regarding locating the obit from the local paper for John Scott in 1932. If you have a subs to Find My Past, depending on what type of subscription you have, you can view the British Newspaper site for free with their subs as it is one of the databases they have.
If you don't, you could sign up for free to www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk You get free access to search and can view up to 3 pages. After this, you have to have a subscription or buy units to view.
In respect of "late of Rathmore, Lenzie", I would think they had a house in Lenzie for some time given it is also mentioned in wife Elizabeth's death notice in 1918. I would guess 'Rathmore' may be the name of their house in Lenzie.
Monica
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The 1920 valuation roll on SP has John Scott listed as proprietor occupier of a house called Rathmore in Victoria Road, parish of Cadder, Lanarkshire.
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Thanks, Forfarian. That looks like it don't you think?
Monica
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Yes. The 1925 VR lists Colonel John Scott as proprietor occupier of Ruthmore, Victoria Road, Lenzie, parish of Cadder, which looks like a spelling error either in the VR or in the index.
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..as proved by the telegram to my parents received in 1944 at my birth (Auntie Lottie with Betty and Nora, 54, Belmont Street, Glasgow).
Making some headway on R W Smith who we now know was Robert. His full name was Robert Watson Smith and by sheer co-incidence, died the year you were born...
A Glasgow boy it seems www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQQ6-JL4
See also www.universitystory.gla.ac.uk/biography/?id=WH16428&type=P&o=&start=0&max=99197&l=s
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The 1920 valuation roll on SP has John Scott listed as proprietor occupier of a house called Rathmore in Victoria Road, parish of Cadder, Lanarkshire.
... and Cadder (pronounced "Cawder", so I've found out) was where Robert Henry Brownlie Scott (b. 1877), [older brother of Charlotte Elizabeth Snell King Scott (b. 1878), my grandmother, Mary Pennycuik Whamond Scott (b. 1879), Thomas King Scott (b. 1881), Elizabeth King Scott (b. 1883), Mary A. M. Scott (b.& d. 1885), Catherine Maude Scott (b.1887), and Alice Scott (b. 1889)] died in 1945.
The grave of John Scott is on the list of the "Auld Aisle Cemetery & Burial Ground, Kirkintilloch", correctly dated 01.07.1932, although he died in Glasgow.
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Making some headway on R W Smith who we now know was Robert. His full name was Robert Watson Smith and by sheer co-incidence, died the year you were born...
A Glasgow boy it seems www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQQ6-JL4
See also www.universitystory.gla.ac.uk/biography/?id=WH16428&type=P&o=&start=0&max=99197&l=s
Great - and now we've also got the names of his parents and that he was a chemical engineer from the University of Glasgow! Being "busy" myself, I've also found his brother "Alexander", born on 25.09.1867.
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Cadder (pronounced "Cawder", so I've found out)
Like Cawdor in the county of Nairn. I believe that both are from the same origin as the surname Calder and there was a registration district called Calderhead. This is after one of the rivers - North Calder Water and South Calder Water, known locally, I believe, as the Cawder. (Not to be confused with the River Calder in Yorkshire, England or the Rotten Calder south of the Clyde.)